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  1. #1

    Default 70-day scores needed for different registries

    Forgive me if this was covered in one of the 70-day threads, but was curious what the different registries require score-wise for licensing.

    Seems like it used to be

    80 - GOV, OLDNA/ISR
    90 - RPSI, AHS, AHHA, ATA (I think that's the requirement since they started accepting 70-day scores)

    Seems like the Dutch required a really high score...110 or 120?

    And a couple require higher scores for stallions born outside of their registries.

    Are these scores still correct? Other registries' requirements?



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by stallion alter View Post
    Forgive me if this was covered in one of the 70-day threads, but was curious what the different registries require score-wise for licensing.

    Seems like it used to be

    80 - GOV, OLDNA/ISR
    90 - RPSI, AHS, AHHA, ATA (I think that's the requirement since they started accepting 70-day scores)

    Seems like the Dutch required a really high score...110 or 120?

    And a couple require higher scores for stallions born outside of their registries.

    Are these scores still correct? Other registries' requirements?
    AHS has it on their website, so it is easily found (and your comment about 90 points is not correct for outside stallions)

    Score Requirements

    For entry into the stallion books of both the HV and the AHS, a Hanoverian or Thoroughbred stallion must complete the German licensing and approval criteria listed or achieve an overall index of at least 90 points in an AHS/HV approved Stallion Performance Test or attain the competitive sports results specified in the section titled Test Alternatives. To be fully licensed to breed, stallions from other non-Hanoverian approved populations must achieve an overall performance test score of at least 120 points or attain results in competition as specified in the AHS Rules of Registration.

    The two subscores of rideability and jumping listed in the AHS Stallion Directory are composite scores of many subgroup scores. The score of 90 or above can be used as an indicator of performance, but of course it doesn’t guarantee the stallion will be a successful producer of performance horses. To quote bloodlines expert Peter Birdsall, DVM, from a lecture he presented at the AHS annual meeting in 1989, “Because the horse doesn’t top his year as a tested horse doesn’t mean he won’t do well as a sire of performance horses.” He cited several examples of this based on his research. Some of the sires that have the best records over the years for producing winning offspring were stallions that finished in the mid-levels of their test classes.


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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by stallion alter View Post
    Seems like the Dutch required a really high score...110 or 120?
    The KWPN does not accept the scores from the 70 day test from my understanding. Stallion owners have to go through a different process for their stallions to be approved for the KWPN.



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    Just bear in mind that even if a stallion achieves the minimum score for a particular registry, he may not necessarily be accepted by that registry for one reason or another.

    And I wish OHBS/GOV's minimums were higher, but it appears they only accepted one stallion with a total score under 100 pts, but he was from their own registry, and his total score was just over 90 pts. Also, IIRC, he was actually licensed last summer.

    Edited to add that just because a stallion isn't approved by a particular registry, it doesn't necessarily mean the registry turned him down - he may not have even been presented to that registry.
    Last edited by DownYonder; Nov. 12, 2012 at 08:09 AM. Reason: clarification



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    Quote Originally Posted by stallion alter View Post
    80 - GOV, OLDNA/ISR
    Last year ISR/OLD accepted Don de Marco even though he was the lowest scoring stallion and only scored a 57 (I previously wrote 60 but was incorrect). It was a big controversy and a blow to their credibility, but it happened.
    Last edited by pinecone; Nov. 12, 2012 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Don de Marco scored a 57 overall, not a 60.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns



  6. #6
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    The final results, from a score sheet screen shot on the other thread:

    1. Qredit Hilltop 126.59
    2. Bliss MF 122.31
    3. Bon Balou 118.96
    4. Sandro's Star 115.32
    5. Contratto 114.38
    6. Painted CF 113.44
    7. Fandango GSF 112.91
    8. Lord Adonis 111.58
    9. Vive Victory 109.97
    10. Canterbury HPF 107.64
    11. Dante MG 105.09
    12. Appeal S 104.4
    13. Embrace 92.71
    14. Roubaix CF 90.69
    15. Corralejo Del Rio 90.36
    16. Legaczy 87.96
    17. Zalinero La Haya 87.11
    18. Baatesh xx 85.09
    19. Edward Scissorhands 83.87
    20. Nicolette's Revelation AF (Arabian) 82.82
    21. Watch Me Go Byebye xx 36.84
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns



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    Last year ISR/OLD accepted Don de Marco even though he was the lowest scoring stallion and only scored a 60. It was a big controversy and a blow to their credibility, but it happened.
    Where does this come from????? This is the information on him. If you can't prove your version of the score, don't diss the stallion - and I have NO dog in this fight, but this doesn't sound right!

    70 DT: 2011 at Silver Creek Farm, OK, 96 pts.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



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    Where does this come from????? This is the information on him. If you can't prove your version of the score, don't diss the stallion - and I have NO dog in this fight, but this doesn't sound right!
    Tiki, the scores came directly off the 70-day test website
    http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.co...ontest2011.htm

    1 Validation S 135.85 128.08 (1) 140.66 (1)
    2 Chicardo * 128.58 125.82 (2) 128.12 (2)
    3 AB Whittier 117.49 120.19 (4) 110.44 (4)
    4 Sir James 112.24 120.44 (3) 100.44 (7)
    5 Sandro Fidelis * 104.52 106.16 (5) 101.69 (6)
    6 Acclaim * 98.19 90.49 (7) 108.57 (5)
    7 Flint GSF * 96.88 97.14 (6) 96.18 (8)
    8 Casallio S 95.03 82.19 (12) 114.54 (3)
    9 Goldmaker * 88.70 85.94 (11) 91.25 (9)
    10 Gulf Rising * 86.95 89.10 (8) 87.50 (10)
    11 Bound and Determined GSF * 86.31 88.56 (9) 83.03 (12)
    12 Balanchine * 84.36 86.02 (10) 86.17 (11)
    13 Don De Marco * 57.57 61.49 (13) 60.68 (13)

    There was also a lengthy thread on here last year about this debacle.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    Where does this come from????? This is the information on him. If you can't prove your version of the score, don't diss the stallion - and I have NO dog in this fight, but this doesn't sound right!

    70 DT: 2011 at Silver Creek Farm, OK, 96 pts.
    from the stallion test 2011 results
    http://nastalliontesting.com/index.php/results/2011
    Overall 57.57

    Where are you getting your scores from Tiki?


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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    from the stallion test 2011 results
    http://nastalliontesting.com/index.php/results/2011
    Overall 57.57

    Where are you getting your scores from Tiki?
    I'm curious also Tiki, where are you getting your scores from?
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns



  11. #11
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    Seems the ISR/ONA decided they didn't like the way the stallions were scored at the 70 day test, so the made up their own numbers and calculated DeMarco a whole new score and then posted that made up score on their website claiming it was his 70 day stallion testing score from Silver Creek.

    Complete FABRICATION and misleading as hell to the public. They lost any support they had from me and most every breeder I know when they stooped to this level to put one stallion in their approval list.
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonesta View Post
    Seems the ISR/ONA decided they didn't like the way the stallions were scored at the 70 day test, so the made up their own numbers and calculated DeMarco a whole new score and then posted that made up score on their website claiming it was his 70 day stallion testing score from Silver Creek.

    Complete FABRICATION and misleading as hell to the public. They lost any support they had from me and most every breeder I know when they stooped to this level to put one stallion in their approval list.
    Not speaking to the quality of the stallion or to ISR/ONA decision. Would like to point out that the final scores may have looked a lot different because of the bell curve. Same horse in a group of 40 would have had different final scores, much better. Since this discussion has happened a few times, I know the replies that are likely. But think of it this way...if the same exact quality stallion came from Europe and the test had 40 horses, the results from that test would give higher final scores, with the raw scores being the same(a 7 for trot a 6 for walk etc), we accept those stallions with open arms. Lots of stallions stand in NA with placing out of the top ten from European tests. But with a small test size it is hard to know if the bottom stallion was a fail or just got shoved to the left end of the curve.
    It is possible they looked at the raw scores and compared them to stallions coming from Europe and found them comparable. I think a test that is available to NA breeders is a great thing, but it shouldn`t handicap our stallions that are getting the same raw results as a European counterpart.
    Last edited by stoicfish; Nov. 12, 2012 at 11:30 AM.


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  13. #13
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    I really wish they would publish detailed actual scores instead of these indexes. They are more meaningful to me as a breeder.


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  14. #14
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    stoicfish, there are many stallion tests in Europe that have fewer than 30 horses. They don't change the way the testing is scored for those horses.

    If ISR/ONA wanted to accept a stallion that scored a 57.57 in his testing, that is their business, but when you post FALSE scores on your registry's website claiming that those were the scores of the stallion from the testing, that is just WRONG on every level.
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonesta View Post
    stoicfish, there are many stallion tests in Europe that have fewer than 30 horses. They don't change the way the testing is scored for those horses.

    If ISR/ONA wanted to accept a stallion that scored a 57.57 in his testing, that is their business, but when you post FALSE scores on your registry's website claiming that those were the scores of the stallion from the testing, that is just WRONG on every level.
    There are some that are under 30 or 20, but do you know how they are calculating them? Do you know for sure they are not calculated using a bigger population? I have heard they do sometimes.
    And as far as false, it depends on how you view those results. They are not changing the raw scores but a number that is calculated. I do believe that they should say they are corrected scores but it is possible they used the raw scores and put them in with a larger group or even an average of the year. So if you had that horse and a horse from Europe with lower raw scores but higher final score, how does that help you as a breeder?
    How do you justify that a stallion with the same raw scores in Europe would have a much higher final score? Not being adversarial, just wondering what you think of that? How can they justify accepting a stallion with those marks without showing the re-calculated final score.



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    Raw Scores (this is Hanoverian)

    Name Interieur Trab Galopp Schritt Rittigkeit Freispringen Parcoursspringen Gelände
    Belafonte 8,25 8,667 8,667 7,5 8,833 6,75 5,5 7,778
    Lokomotion 8 7,333 7,333 6,833 7,333 7,917 7,25 7
    Lizitant 8 7,167 7,333 6,833 8 5,5 4,5 6,222
    Referee 7,75 7,094 7,13 7,053 7,167 6,333 6,75 7,18
    Lemur 8 6,667 7,667 7 6,833 6,25 6,75 6,667
    Silberschmied 8,25 8 8 8,333 8,833 5,75 5,5 7,778
    Layouter 7,75 7 8 7,167 6,667 7,75 6,75 8,111
    Rezeptor 7,75 8,833 8,167 9 6,167 6,083 5,25 7,667
    Chivas 7,75 7,094 7,91 6,243 7,333 8,025 7,75 8,016
    Di Stefano 7,5 7,929 8,69 7,053 8,667 5,725 6 6,91
    Arthi 7,5 5,333 6 6,333 6 7,333 7 6,667
    Evidenz 8 5,167 6,5 6 5,5 8,083 7,5 7,556
    Wehrsold 6,75 6,167 7 7,833 5,333 4,583 4 3,778
    Don Felice 6,75 6,333 7,667 7,667 7,167 6,083 5,75 6,778
    Retoucheur 8 7,5 8 7,333 7,5 5,5 7 7,556
    Semantiker 7,75 7 7,833 7,667 7,167 8,667 8 7,333
    Chansonnier 7,25 6,167 6,167 6,667 6 6,583 5,25 7
    Longline 8 5,833 7 6,667 7,333 6 7 6,556
    Hardliner 7 6,667 7,5 6,833 5,5 5,333 4 7,333
    Demograph 7 6,833 6,5 6,5 7,333 5,167 5 6,333
    Grundstock 7,25 6 6,5 7,5 6,167 7,583 7,25 7,222
    Casarotti 7,25 6,167 7 6,167 5,333 7 7 6,778
    Dealer 6,75 6,833 6,667 7,333 6,833 5 4,25 7
    Latinist 8 6,833 7,5 6,833 7,333 8,417 8,25 7,889
    Deklarant 7,75 6,333 7 6,833 6,333 6,083 5,75 6,667
    Elektor 7,75 5,167 5,5 6,167 5,333 6,917 6 5,889
    Caboto 7,75 6 6,667 6,5 6,167 8,917 8,5 7,889
    Einschnitt 7,25 5,5 6,167 6,167 6,333 7,667 6,75 7,556
    Zebulon 7,25 5,5 6,167 6,167 6,333 7,167 6,75 6,444
    Highland Chief WF 6,75 6,5 7 8,167 6,333 5,833 4,5 7,111
    Facon 7,5 6,167 6,667 7 6,167 8 4,5 7,667
    Empiriko 6,5 5,5 6,5 5,333 6,167 8,167 7,25 6,556
    Five Star 7,25 8,167 8,167 6,833 7,167 5,333 4,75 6,667
    Quaid 8 6,5 7,333 7 7,333 8,5 8,75 8
    Avagon 8,25 8,764 8,69 7,053 8,667 8,725 8,25 8,121
    Chadwick 7,5 6,667 7 5,167 6,5 9,5 8,75 8,111
    Eau de Vie 7,75 7,667 8 7,167 8 7,583 7,75 7,667
    Labiat 7,75 7,667 7,5 6,667 8 8,333 7,5 8,333
    Al Cambero 7,5 5,5 6,833 7,333 6 8,583 8 7,333
    William 8 6,5 6,167 5,667 6,333 6,583 6,5 6,889

    Final scores
    431319674504 Belafonte Belissimo M Wendekreis Gotthard 133,5 1 143,89 1 101,02 16
    DE 431310307504 Lokomotion Lordanos Landsieger I Furioso II 116,89 8 112,34 7 114,67 10
    DE 431314402204 Lizitant Lauries Crusador xx Wittinger Eisenherz I 104,1 13 120,49 4 76,83 30
    DE 431318803104 Referee Rotspon Weltmeyer Dirk 104,65 HR 107,17 99,07
    DE 431314415504 Lemur Lauries Crusador xx Cavalier Wendekreis 102,4 15 104,56 14 98,51 19
    DE 431316658504 Silberschmied Sunlight xx Wolkenstein II Avus 129,29 2 142,02 2 94,64 24
    DE 431314603504 Layouter Laptop Escudo I Raphael 109,61 11 102,51 15 111,76 11
    DE 431318502704 Rezeptor Rosentau Weltmeyer Akzent II 99,93 17 106,9 12 91,52 25
    DE 431312315204 Chivas Conteur Escudo I Fabriano 117,27 HR 110,22 121,33
    DE 431312002204 Di Stefano Dauphin Sherlock Holmes Western Star 118,22 HR 132,37 87,52
    DE 431317232204 Arthi Acorado Gloster Pilot 84,08 28 78,71 30 101,41 15
    DE 431311313504 Evidenz El Bundy Glueckspilz Werther 92,35 19 76,89 32 117,26 8
    DE 431316201104 Wehrsold Welser Bolero Sudan xx 51,82 36 73,95 33 50,81 36
    DE 431315403404 Don Felice Don Frederico Wittinger Bolero 88,94 23 100,7 16 80,12 29
    DE 431314600404 Retoucheur Rotspon Hohenstein Matcho AA 112,51 9 117,46 6 98,83 17
    DE 431312306304 Semantiker Stolzenberg Goldfasan Picard 118,53 7 110,9 9 122,84 5
    DE 431314503604 Chansonnier Conteur Wanderkoenig Wrede 79,73 31 82,02 29 86,96 28
    DE 431318802904 Longline Londonderry Sao Paulo Dorian 103,71 14 106,9 12 97,97 21
    DE 431316560504 Hardliner Hohenstein Fabriano Matcho AA 66,5 35 78,37 31 70,11 34
    DE 431311302004 Demograph Don Bosco Glueckspilz Graphit 86,38 25 99,45 17 71,14 33
    DE 431311307504 Grundstock Graf Grannus Bold Indian xx Calypso II 94,61 18 85,78 25 107,55 12
    DE 431314603004 Casarotti Contendro I Ramiro's Son II Pinkus 79,99 30 73,23 34 98,37 20
    DE 431316730404 Dealer Del Piero Lauries Crusador xx Buenos Aires 78,02 33 92,61 19 66,4 35
    DE 431316009204 Latinist Le Primeur Grand Cru Pik Senior 122,15 6 111,73 8 126,32 4
    DE 431314302804 Deklarant Don Frederico Matcho AA Argentan 86,09 26 92,95 18 88,37 27
    DE 431311306804 Elektor El Bundy Silvio I Calypso II 73,72 34 69,59 36 90,87 26
    DE 431311301804 Caboto Contendro I Escudo I Calypso II 106,13 12 87,4 24 129,15 3
    DE 431311306404 Einschnitt Escudo I Calido Acord II 91,13 21 82,26 27 105,77 13
    NLD003NL0409152 Zebulon Now Or Never M (NL) Belisar Aristo 85,61 27 82,21 28 96,75 22
    DE 431319843104 Highland Chief WF His Highness Lemon Park Weltmeyer 79,53 32 88,9 21 73,5 32
    DE 431316711404 Facon For Pleasure Neuquen xx Aderlass 87,34 24 87,42 23 95,29 23
    DE 431311409404 Empiriko Embassy I Graf Grannus Akzent I 82,46 29 72,71 35 103,4 14
    DE 431310229704 Five Star Florestan I Wolkenstein II Calypso II 91,51 20 108,78 11 73,88 31
    DE 431310134204 Quaid Quidam's Rubin Voltaire Ramiro 122,99 5 110,49 10 129,85 2
    DE 404980008103 Avagon Acorado II Escudo I Calypso II 144,35 HR 140,38 131,6
    DE 431317200404 Chadwick Cranach Argentinus Diskus 111,04 10 88,63 22 131,81 1
    DE 431311418804 Eau de Vie Embassy I Acord II Gotthard 125,18 4 122,97 3 116,49 9
    DE 431311328904 Labiat Le Primeur Werther Dagobert 126,09 3 120,14 5 121,4 6
    DE 431316915204 Al Cambero Acorado Voltaire Willem's As 100,69 16 84,53 26 120,34 7
    DE 431311205204 William Waikiki Escudo I Cavalier 90,93 22 89,63 20 98,72 18

    For an example, look at the horse I highlighted in red. And his raw scores. This would be similar to the final scores that were awarded to the stallion in question. But if they recalculated the scores with a bigger class in mind... you see the horse highlighted in green. Not a bad dressage horse just not a jumper.There is a huge difference in the raw scores. Now it would be interesting to see what the stallion in question got for raw scores. His final score of 57 represents him to be similar to the horse in red.



  17. #17
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    The point I was making was in reference to the OP's question regarding minimum score requirements. ISR/OLD can pay lip service to having certain minimum score requirements, but the Don de Marco controversy proves they don't follow their own rules.

    If ISR/ONA wanted to accept a stallion that scored a 57.57 in his testing, that is their business, but when you post FALSE scores on your registry's website claiming that those were the scores of the stallion from the testing, that is just WRONG on every level.
    I wholeheartedly agree. I knew they'd accepted this stallion, but I didn't know they'd made up their own score for him. If they're pretending he got a 96, how does that play into the scores the other stallions earned? A 96 puts him closer to the middle of the pack, and ahead of five other stallions who actually did much better than he did.

    if the same exact quality stallion came from Europe and the test had 40 horses, the results from that test would give higher final scores, with the raw scores being the same(a 7 for trot a 6 for walk etc), we accept those stallions with open arms. Lots of stallions stand in NA with placing out of the top ten from European tests. But with a small test size it is hard to know if the bottom stallion was a fail or just got shoved to the left end of the curve.
    I see the point you're making stoicfish.

    Regardless of his final score, this stallion came in last at the 30DT in 2010 and last at the 70DT in 2011. He also doesn't appear to have gone on to do anything impressive in competition following the stallion test either. His only dressage results are some in hand classes in 2007 and 2008. I suspect in Europe this would be a gelding
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone View Post
    Regardless of his final score, this stallion came in last at the 30DT in 2010 and last at the 70DT in 2011. He also doesn't appear to have gone on to do anything impressive in competition following the stallion test either. His only dressage results are some in hand classes in 2007 and 2008. I suspect in Europe this would be a gelding
    You may be right in this case. However the 57 is not necessarily reveling of that, you need more information to determine that. I also think the registry should have noted that they were adjusted scores so there was no confusion.


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