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  1. #1
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    Default Why do some horses top out at PSG?

    Over the years I've noticed several threads about schoolmasters where the horse has topped out at PSG.
    I was wondering what the reasons may be for a horse to go so far but not get to Grand Prix.
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



  2. #2
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    Default

    Because what is required at PSG vs. GP is huge.


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  3. #3
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    Default

    in other words either the horse or the trainer didnt have the skills or ability to get the horse further.....



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sid View Post
    Because what is required at PSG vs. GP is huge.
    If a horse is correctly trained by a trainer with the ability to take the horse Grand Prix, do some horses top out at PSG just due to native ability limitations?
    How many do you think top out at PSG because the training was correct enough to get to PSG, but not correct enough to go on the Grand Prix?
    "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

    "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x



  5. #5
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    Default

    I'd go one step further and say that PSG to I-1 is not too far, but I-1 to I-2/GP is immense. The one-tempis can be a stumbling block for many horses (and riders!). More than that, though, it's the fact that there are no places to "hide" in the GP-- it's all engagement all the time. I'd venture to say that most horses can get some steps of piaffe at some time, but connecting quality passage to quality piaffe to quality passage to quality canter/extended trot/walk (depending on where in the test you are) demands a lot out of the horses.

    Ultimately GP horses want it. They glory in movement. They are not easy rides. Horses that top out at PSG may be less "driven"-- they may be more rideable (depending) but resist the demands of extra collection due to physical or mental limitations.


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  6. #6
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    Mar. 9, 2006
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    Default

    One's. Piaffe. Passage.

    The physical and mental ability to do ALL the movements.

    Many just don't / want to work that hard.

    The soundness to pursue all the movements.



  7. #7
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    Default

    Eons ago I asked the same question of my instructor and she had some ball park numbers: only 1 in 1000 horses have the body to do Piaffe AND passage and of those only one in 1000 have the mind to do it as well. Factor in horses that don't get to the right trainers and or injuries and it is a very small number that make it to GP.

    I dont know where she got her numbers but with that logic, it is easier to understand the limits.
    bad decisions make good stories


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  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mjhco View Post
    One's. Piaffe. Passage.

    The physical and mental ability to do ALL the movements.

    Many just don't / want to work that hard.

    The soundness to pursue all the movements.
    and to add to that, a good measure of luck that nothing bad or catastrophic happens along the way.


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  9. #9
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    I would say from the judges I heard talk about it at PSG they stop handing out scores to horses that can just do the movements and if the gaits are not above average on top of accuracy.

    You dont get a 5 for just doing the work and showing differences in the gaits.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  10. #10
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    Default

    Those that have said piaffe/passage are probably the closest in IMO. My horse throws one tempis like he's a stallion in a field of in-season mares. If I move a seat bone or a leg even a centimeter too much, we're throwing changes like a maniac. That being said, I don't see a show ring quality piaffe/passage out of this horse. Very long-backed, slightly downhill. We get steps of it, but nothing I would ever take into the ring.



  11. #11
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    Default

    i have been thinking about this... and i think that mostly it is a trainer issue..... there just aren't that many trainers that can train a horse to GP.... so they get to pick which horses they train

    i always think back to the old days when there were rarely horses with the talent we have nowadays - and the trainers had to overcome a lot to get a horse to GP.....

    so i dont think we can "blame" the horses - but not enough trainers....

    i think an interesting question might be: of those trainers who can and do train multiple horses to GP - how many horses did they not advance once they had the skills?

    i know a couple who can advance most horses they ride to GP (ie piaffe/passage/tempi's) - now whether it will be a show horse is a different question....



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnm161 View Post
    I'd go one step further and say that PSG to I-1 is not too far, but I-1 to I-2/GP is immense. The one-tempis can be a stumbling block for many horses (and riders!). More than that, though, it's the fact that there are no places to "hide" in the GP-- it's all engagement all the time. I'd venture to say that most horses can get some steps of piaffe at some time, but connecting quality passage to quality piaffe to quality passage to quality canter/extended trot/walk (depending on where in the test you are) demands a lot out of the horses.

    Ultimately GP horses want it. They glory in movement. They are not easy rides. Horses that top out at PSG may be less "driven"-- they may be more rideable (depending) but resist the demands of extra collection due to physical or mental limitations.
    Exactly this. Ask any top rider/trainer and I'd bet they would say this is quite true.

    The "material" that can meet the incredible physical and mental demands has got to be pretty special. My former instructor years ago (from the Poulin, Lavell, Goodrich, Savoie crowd back then) said to me that the GP horse also has to have what she termed "nerve", that "want to" attitude -- akin to what you referred to "drive". Not all horses have that when the demands become more and more difficult, especially if their conformation can't take it...nor their mind.

    The best trainer in the world can't change that.



  13. #13
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    Default

    i know a couple who can advance most horses they ride to GP (ie piaffe/passage/tempi's) - now whether it will be a show horse is a different question....

    If they can't take it in the show ring and do a decent GP test then it isn't really a GP horse. Doing the movements at home and putting them together in the test are two very different things.

    It takes a special horse (mentally and physically) to do GP dressage, just as now all horses can be GP jumpers.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    ....if they can't take it in the show ring and do a decent GP test then it isn't really a GP horse. Doing the movements at home and putting them together in the test are two very different things. (my emphasis added)

    It takes a special horse (mentally and physically) to do GP dressage, just as not all horses can be GP jumpers.
    This. Yes.


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  15. #15
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    Jun. 18, 2012
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    Default

    In addition to natural ability, mental ability, training/trainer, rider, you have to add physical issues. Many horses cannot take the physical stresses of the GP work.


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