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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2012
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    Cleveland, OH
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    27

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    At least the trainer was up front with you, that his program was going to take 2-3 years. You can now decide if that is appropriate for your time frame or not. A dear friend of mine got a horse that was already green broke to ride and drive. He was to be her next show horse. Took him to the trainer where he sat in the stall, though she was told he was in training and that she was not to ride him on her own. He was ground driven and lunged off and on, advanced students rode him here and there, and my friend was allowed to ride him a handful of times. 3 years passed before she missed yet another show season and pulled him from the "training" program and sent him to another trainer who told her w/in a month he was not the right horse for her. Most of this happened because she was too scared to speak up to the trainer and question her methods. Stand up for yourself and your goals op. I know this person is a good trainer, but he isn't the only one out there and you don't want to waste 2+ years of your horse life watching from the ground. Don't have the regret of wishing you had spoken up. The worst he can say is No.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
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    7,536

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    well.... he is right that the horse will be better off being worked by him for a couple more years - especially if you are a novice rider.

    however, if you cant afford her being in training that long then you need to tell trainer that you want to ride said horse x times a week.

    if he is good then i would try to keep him because lets face it - good trainers are hard to find.

    as for updates etc.... lots of trainers are more minimal in their communications - it really depends on what you want.

    i am editing after reading the OPs 2nd post.

    you are right to find a trainer that will help your horse. so good for you.

    however, might i suggest that if you want to progress your riding, you might look into finding a horse that is already trained? especially if you are older, riding a greenie is not a safe thing to do....

    there are loads of nice horses who are trained who can help you succeed as a rider. once you have progressed in your own riding then you can look into a buying a green horse.

    i mean the above with care and not snark.... i just have seen green on green end up badly so many times... and at over 50 our bodies dont bounce like they used to!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2006
    Posts
    319

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    Before moving to a new trainer I would take a step back and look at what is in the horse's best interest. As I understand it, the horse is doing well in this training program. It has not done well in others, so I would be hesitant to fire said trainer without working hard to find a solution.

    Good trainers are hard to come by and no one is perfect.

    That said, you should be able to ride more. He could be exaggerating about the 2-3 years.

    I would tell the trainer that you need to ride more. Can you cool the horse out? How can the two of you work together to accomplish this?

    I will say that there are good trainers and there are good teachers. Some really good trainers are awful teachers. Often trainers who don't want the AA on the horse are the ones who really struggle with teaching.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov. 10, 2012
    Posts
    14

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    Thank you all again for your comments/ideas. I sent my trainer an e-mail tonight complimenting him on how well my horse is doing and explaining my need to be involved in her training and to ride more. I have a lesson with him on Wednesday and I asked him to give some thought as to how this could happen so we could discuss. Tried to be as tactful as I could while making it clear that I'm not willing to wait on the sidelines any longer. We'll see what happens on Wednesday ...


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Nov. 10, 2012
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    14

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    AllWeatherGal - thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry for your loss and I am taking your message about making things happen to heart. Thank you.



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2008
    Location
    MD
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    3,644

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    OP, you say your horse is not dangerous and has a good mind, she just needs to learn to relax. If your trainer is not open to you riding her more, I'd move the horse to a less expensive faciltiy, take a lesson a week on a made horse to work on myself, a few lessons a month on my own horse, and just ride your own horse in between in as relaxed a way as you can without any pressure on either of you. Eventually your own skill with some good coaching will bring you along together.

    I had a lot of problems riding my own horse. He sustained a back injury at 5 that made him unrideable for 3 years, then he had to be restarted as a completely greeen 8 year old with a pain anticipation problem. I tried multiple trainers, all of whom expected him to work/act like an 8 year old that had been ridden for several years, not a green baby. Additionally, I had major anxiety riding green horses.

    After a few frustrating sessions with different trainers, I decided that the only way to bring him along the way I wanted was to do it myself. So I re-enrolled in lessons with my old H/J trainer to re-establish my strength, balance, and muscle memory, and just did walk/trot in a small ring on my horse until I felt safe and secure enough to ride through any sillies or minor tantrums. It has been slow, yes, but today I am enjoying my horse, and he is enjoying our rides! We are finally back to cantering with no anxiety at all.

    I could do this, because, like you, I had a horse with a good mind, sweet disposition, and work ethic. We just needed to re-build confidence in each other as a team again. It sounds very much like you have the right horse for the job, you just need to have the confidence that you can work with her on your own. It may come more slowly, but I really don't think you need to throw in the towel. Just enjoy your horse in your own way and don't let anyone else set your expectations for you or her.
    Last edited by Trevelyan96; Nov. 13, 2012 at 12:48 PM.
    Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
    Witherun Farm
    http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47

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    I haven't read every response, but I will second those who have said "Life IS short."

    Basie, I understand your desire to have your horse under the training of someone who has you horse's interests at heart as well as being capable. If you can honestly say that you can confidently and safely ride your horse, then I say, your trainer should honor this, and if not, say buh-bye.

    I think it is of upmost importance that we, upon entering a trainer's "program," understand what said program entails. It doesn't mean you can't change your mind about what you want out of the program, but it may mean that you need to move on from a trainer because of it. You are the client and trainer is providing a service. If it isn't to your liking, for whatever reason, it's up to you to voice this and see what your trainer will/won't budge on. It's hard to be so business-like, but at the end of the day, it's a hobby, and by virtue, you need to be enjoying yourself.

    If I were you, there's no way I would hand over the reins to my horse for 2-3 years, especially considering your goals and the fact that your horse is not dangerous.



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2005
    Location
    The Prairie
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    5,371

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    I just can't help but feel that there is something missing in this scenario. Is the horse really and truly a good amateur horse? Do you ride as well as you think (and, btw, are you riding enough to keep up your skills if someone else has been riding your horse for so long now?)

    I am not suggesting that either you or your trainer are being dishonest but is trainer perhaps being..a little too diplomatic?

    I just cannot fathom a good minded young horse, no matter how badly started, being unable to be ridden by a decent amateur for literally years. I'm sorry, that just does not make sense.

    If the horse is not super reactive and you have a decent seat and hands....surely by now you would be at the point where it could be scaled back to maybe a couple of training rides per week, one or two lessons for you and a couple days of "unsupervised" rides?

    I would want to ask the trainer, "ok, don't spare my feelings, give me the unvarnished truth about my riding and my horse"

    We are not talking about a horse that an ambitious trainer has identified as "international quality" in which case I can understand the reluctance to have you ride more. If we are talking about that horse, then yes, it is reasonable for you to not ride it for a few more years (if ever).

    To tell a 50 yr old amateur rider that they can't ride their LOWER LEVEL supposedly non dangerous horse for 2 years? Makes no sense.

    What is the supposed rationale? If horse needs more strength or to work on relaxation, why can't he give you a program to work on?

    Here is what I think you need from your trainer, assuming you still want to work with him.

    1) The unvarnished TRUTH
    2) A specific rationale, why does the horse need this program and why can't you be a part of it?
    3) A plan. No offence, but you are 50 (I say this as a 47 yr old) Life is short. Why in the world should you give up on competitive dressage if that is what you want to do? If not this horse than he should give you a REASONABLE plan (by that I mean something that might take 3 months) to get you onto a horse that you can RIDE, ENJOY and SHOW if that is what you want to do.

    Good luck, you have been very patient, I truly hope your patience is rewarded!
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2006
    Posts
    1,465

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    I told an acquaintance ( horse person ) that I was thinking of buying a saddle that might take 6-8 months to get in. Her response: "Your horse may be dead in six months." She was joking, in part, but anyone who works with horses knows it is all too true. Your trainer talks about 2-3 years as if horses come with a guarantee from injury or colic or disease. Bad things happen to people and horses ALL THE TIME. The time to enjoy your horse is NOW. Find a trainer that will provide you with a better balance of development -- yours and your horse's...
    http://behindthebitblog.com
    Dressage, riding, sport horse blog


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May. 14, 2009
    Posts
    595

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    Read most of the posts and my first reaction was that your mare is broken, literally.
    Way back with the intial Trainer was there a diagnosis or just the injections & time off.
    It should not take a few yrs to get a sound/healthy horse to relax under saddle. But it will take that long or never to try and get a horse to relax that is in pain.
    Just me- I would never inject a 3/4 yr old.



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Nov. 24, 2002
    Location
    Northern KY
    Posts
    4,410

    Default Just. Wow.

    If the horse is not dangerous, you should be riding it in lessons with the trainer by now, unless you actually, really, stink. And even if you really, really stink, a decent trainer should a: Tell you, and help you, or b: Tell you and help you.

    To continue to take your money, and to think that, unless this is the next Ravel, you would sit on the sidelines for "2 to 3 years" is the reason why trainers get such a bad name.

    Unless you have fear issues, some physical or mental impairment, and the horse is a nutburger, at this point, the trainer needs to be working "for you". You asked him to get your horse to this point, and apparently, the horse is at a point where you feel safe riding it.

    Whether or not the horse will continue to progress with you is another matter. The trainer may feel you need a "made" horse and in his professional opinion, that will take a couple of years.

    Ask the hard question? "Mr. Trainer, here's what I'm seeing, you've made great progress with Suchafuss, but, you don't feel I'm ready to ride her myself yet. Why?" "Do I need to be a better rider, or does she need to be a better horse, or both?"

    Then listen.

    Lessons and training rides usually pay the same, so it shouldn't be an economic decision on the trainer's part making the differnce.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
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    2,816

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltc4h View Post
    Just me- I would never inject a 3/4 yr old.
    What would do? Leave it in pain?
    You don't know what was injected and where and why...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Aug. 17, 2010
    Posts
    102

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    Just wanted to offer what my program looks like for my young horse and it's working well for everyone. She gets 2 pro-rides a week, I get 2 lessons a week on her, and ride on my own 1-2x's per week. We're both making great progress (although I'm sure my horse would be further along with 100% pro-rides, but that's not my goal either) and I get to enjoy riding and learning on a horse that's continually a level or two above me. It's been perfect! Hopefully he's willing to work out something like that for you, otherwise I'd be finding someone who will. Good luck!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Still here ~ not yet there
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    6,304

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schiffon View Post
    Just to play devil's advocate...this is conjecture since I haven't seen your horse or your riding... but neither have the other posters who are assuming the trainer is simply taking advantage of you.

    The first trainer had trouble with the horse and a second trainer couldn't do much with her in 6 months, so maybe she is not the easiest horse to ride.

    You say the current trainer says the concern isn't that you are a "bad" rider. However, there is a wide spectrum of riding ability between bad and good enough to be safe and effective on a difficult young horse. This "good enough" is not the same as being a professional, but there is a certain level of balance, feel and proper reactions that are needed to deal with young horses. Maybe the trainer doesn't want to hurt your feelings. It is often difficult for trainers to state the cold harsh truth that this may be your dream horse but you are over-horsed.

    You could ask the trainer if he/she has a horse that would be a suitable intermediate level horse to take lessons on and hone your skills. The opinion of a knowledgeable third party to evaluate your riding and your horse could also be sought.
    I'm always befuddled when I hear these stories...where is the pro who advised the OP buy this horse in the first place? There are green horses who could have been ridden by the OP after a year or less, yet (apparently) several trainers struggled with this young animal before the OP found someone who could teach her (the horse) properly. So obviously the horse is not an easy ride. Tell the instructor you want to ride you horse. If he won't let you ride this one, sell it to him and buy one you can ride.

    I'm not saying this is the case, but some trainers DO tend to be more sympathetic to the horse than the riders...and sometimes that's not a bad thing.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
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    2,816

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    A few quotes from OP's posts.

    ...ideally, he would like to work with her exclusively for another 2-3 yrs before I start riding her more...
    Did he said 'ideally'? If so, it doesn't mean that is what you have to choose.

    But I didn't buy a horse not to ride it, especially for 2-3 yrs...
    Well, why did you bought a green horse you knew you were unable to start/train it yourself?
    It's already been 2-3 years now.

    ...I don't want to risk having her progress set back by moving to a less skilled trainer...
    I hope you understand that if you start riding the horse more often than your trainer, her progress will set back.

    Everyone who worked with her praised her great mind and athletic abilities
    Yet, 2 trainers weren't able to ride her properly and at 7-8yrs old, she is just beginning to 'relax' in her back with this 3rd trainer.

    You also mention the 'occasionnal youngster spook'. IMHO, this no longer a youngster, it's a fully grown 7-8 yrs old that need training/re-training.

    I don't think the trainer is trying to rip you off. A horse that's been badly ridden for 2-3 years isn't going to suddenly be good in a few months; especially for an amateur rider. Been there done that. Rode a horse for a year because it was "crazy". He was an angel for me by the end of the year. I knew the owner wouldn't be able to deal with it no matter how nice and charming the horse was. I told her she should sell. She decided to bring it back home. In 2-3 months, horsie was back to his old behaviors, nastier than ever...how do you sell that now? She is stuck with it in her backyard. Too bad, she was not a bad rider, it was just a bad fit.

    If I were you? I would sell that horse quickly and lease/buy a more suitable one and take LOTS of lessons and go to shows. More riding for less money!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Nov. 10, 2012
    Posts
    14

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    OK, here are some more details. I bought my horse at 8 months old because I thought she had potential and at the time I couldn’t afford to buy a “made” horse (this was in early 2007 when the horse market/economy was still healthy). I was willing to spend the money to have a professional start her and bring her along when she was old enough. In the meantime, I took riding lessons when I could find a barn that had lesson horses and spent a lot of time hand walking my filly. I will admit that I got impatient waiting and had my horse started at age 3. Dressage is my discipline of choice, but while I was taking lessons, I was disturbed by the number of fairly young horses (7-10 yrs) that required injections to stay sound. I attributed this to the “traditional” dressage training methods and decided to look for a trainer that used a different, more “humane” approach. Trainer #1 emphasized engaging the horse in the training process using natural horsemanship methods with the goal of having the horse remain soft in the bridle with self-carriage. After my horse was started (~3 months full time training), she was on a schedule of two training rides and one lesson per week for the next 2 years. I would also ride her on my own approximately 2 times per week.

    Everything seemed to be going great – I was having fun, my horse seemed happy and healthy and she even won a regional reserve championship and USDF All Breeds Award at training level with her trainer riding. However, what I didn’t appreciate was that the trainer’s expectation that she “carry herself” wasn’t helping her stay balanced under saddle because she wasn’t being conditioned to develop the strength necessary to make that happen. Worse, if the trainer thought my horse was being “bracey”, she would be spun around on the forehand under the theory that that would prevent her from relying on the rein for support. After about a year and a half, she came up lame in early January 2011. A veterinary osteopath examined her and found that she was extremely sore everywhere, but especially in her SI and hocks – the vet’s hypothesis was that my mare had slipped and fallen on the ice and snow in the pasture. The recommended treatment was mesotherapy and hock injections for the pain. I was very opposed to the injections (see above), but the vet basically told me that it would be inhumane not to relieve her pain so she could be rehabbed more effectively. I reluctantly agreed and my horse was treated by a lameness vet who recommended two weeks of lunging using a neck stretcher. We followed that plan and her trainer eased her back into work after about a month. She was much better for a few months, but by May had started to rush and pull and routinely stood camped out. She was obviously in distress, so I called the veterinary osteopath and she found that my mare’s back and hocks were as sore as before and recommended more injections. That’s when I started to do some research. I will freely admit that I was an idiot not to realize that my mare wasn’t being worked correctly, but I trusted my trainer as a professional and thought that the welfare of the horse was her first concern. Also, until she started pulling and rushing, my horse’s behavior didn’t indicate that anything was wrong. I sat down with the trainer and told her my concerns and asked her to work my horse differently. She wasn’t receptive and later told me that the problem was that my horse just didn’t want to work. I moved her to another trainer shortly thereafter.

    Trainer #2 is a proponent of the German training pyramid and I had read some articles he had written that described how to help horses with the same problems my horse was having. I visited his farm and he seemed personable and willing to help. However, after we arrived, it took nearly two weeks before I could schedule time with him to evaluate my horse. We set up a time the following week to start lessons, but when I showed up, he cancelled on me. I was furious and made arrangements to move the next day.

    Trainer #3 was someone I had taken lessons with and she seemed much more knowledgeable about the biomechanics of training which I thought would be helpful because my horse obviously needed to learn how to move correctly. Unfortunately, this trainer expected the horse to be “through” regardless if it was sore or weak or didn’t understand what it was being asked to do. So, the trainer completely ignored the whole concept of relaxation and after 6 months my horse was so tight that biweekly massages had no effect. The veterinary osteopath came back and recommended mesotherapy and hock injections again and gave me the same lecture about the consequences if I didn’t have it done. I was beside myself – despite my efforts to do the right thing, my horse was nearly ruined. I literally cried on my vet’s shoulder and she told me that she knew of only two trainers in my area that had the skill necessary to help my mare – one was located too far away and the other was trainer #2. In the interest of doing what was best for my horse, I took her back to trainer #2 where she’s been since March.

    As I’ve spent thousands of dollars on tack, training and veterinary care, I haven’t been able to afford to take lessons on other horses. Since my trainer doesn’t have any school horses and has discouraged me from going elsewhere and developing bad habits that he’ll only have to correct, I haven’t pressed the issue until now. Selling my horse is not an option at this time because I’m responsible for what’s happened to her and I’m trying to put things right. Although I think we’re finally on the right track, it sure would be nice to actually have some fun with my horse again! Sorry for the length of this post, but I hope this info is helpful.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
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    7,536

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    OP i feel for you. You are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    For the welfare of your horse it sounds like where she is is what she needs. Since we cant see her or you none of us can tell you what the right thing is.

    If this mare has been badly injured then it will take time to mend.....

    I suggest scheduling an appointment with your trainer and discussing this all with him. He is the only one who can help you right now.

    Just remember that you have already spent a lot of time and money on this mare - taking her out of training now might lose all the effort.... and giving her a bit more time may give you years of fun on the other end.

    good luck in whatever you decide.



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
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    2,816

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basie View Post
    OK, here are some more details. I bought my horse at 8 months old because I thought she had potential and at the time I couldn’t afford to buy a “made” horse (this was in early 2007 when the horse market/economy was still healthy). I was willing to spend the money to have her started when old enough...
    Made horses are usually more expensive to buy because someone else put time and $$ to bring them along.

    You bought a 8 months old thinking she had potential? According to your post she is a low level dressage and not a fancy mover. Or was she fancy?

    According to your posts, you want to do low level dressage and don't need a fancy horse...that can easily be found and is not that expensive. A sane mid teen 4H cross could do the trick. But I think you made the mistake of buying a dream. Dreams are expensive. What kind of horse (her breeding) is your mare?

    With all the money you have spent now, you should have bought an older one you could have enjoy from day one under saddle.

    The vet’s hypothesis was that my mare had slipped and fallen on the ice and snow in the pasture. The recommended treatment was mesotherapy and hock injections for the pain.
    What kind of injections in the hock? What was the Xray showing then and now?

    Selling my horse is not an option at this time because I’m responsible for what’s happened to her and I’m trying to put things right.
    That I don't understand. You said your horse was fine for trainer and for you to ride. Isn't it healthy now? Why things need to be put right? How long will it take?
    You could find her a good family and buy yourself a nice horse you can ride on your own and have fun with. If she is now pain free and going well undersaddle, this is just the right time to sell.

    You can keep her for the rest of her life of course if that is what you want but realise that you will likely need to put more $$ into training and vet care because your mare needs special cares that are expensive.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2005
    Location
    Australia
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    694

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    Quote Originally Posted by MYalterID View Post
    Just wanted to offer what my program looks like for my young horse and it's working well for everyone. She gets 2 pro-rides a week, I get 2 lessons a week on her, and ride on my own 1-2x's per week. We're both making great progress (although I'm sure my horse would be further along with 100% pro-rides, but that's not my goal either) and I get to enjoy riding and learning on a horse that's continually a level or two above me. It's been perfect! Hopefully he's willing to work out something like that for you, otherwise I'd be finding someone who will. Good luck!
    I breed, train and sell warmbloods. I also teach. In Australia very VERY few people keep a horse in training.

    Even a scenario like the one above with 4 paid sessions a week is extremely rare. We take our horses to club training days, we trailer out to go on bush rides and our horses get to the highest level we can get them - eventually.

    I sell unbroken or green backed horses to amateur owners all the time. Most have less than 6 weeks (30 rides) under saddle - that's all anyone can afford. People just get on and do it, minimal pressure means that horses aren't under anything like as much physical or mental stress. We just get on and ride if our horses are safe.

    Like this - these are both green broken warmbloods and the new owner of the bay mare has hardly ridden in 10 years. But it comes back to you and practice makes improvement faster than anything else.

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...06759795_n.jpg

    I feel very sad when I don't hear someone having the opportunity to ENJOY the journey. Be happy with your horse and riding experience and you will learn more than you ever expected... but not the way it is now.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Aug. 11, 2008
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    MD
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    OP, I think you are trying too hard to give your mare a 'perfect' start. If you truly want her to relax, stop worrying about whether or not she is 'using herself' correctly. That comes much later in a horse's education. In her current state, the highest expectations for her should be that she can WTC safely and obediently with her own natural rhythm on a light contact. From there you work on inside leg to outside hand to develop bend, and good transitions and a little more contact As she gets stronger, you start asking for longer and shorter strides in each gait, and a little more impulsion.

    Until she finds her best, most comfortable rhythm in all 3 gaits and builds enough strength to hold that rhythm on both straight lines and turns, she won't be ready to 'use herself' like a 2nd level dressage horse. Focusing her training for that goal before she can relax into her own rhythm will only continue to make her sore (and sour).

    I know I'll be flamed for this by some dressage 'purists' but it really is OK for a horse to go on the forehand early in its education under saddle. With correct training, they usually learn to carry themselves as they get stronger and more flexible. But it takes time and patience to get there, and more young horses are ruined and sore by owners and trainers who want them to 'use themselves properly' from the very beginning, than those who are allowed to move whatever way they naturally find is easist to carry a rider for a few years. You can gradually ask her to shift her weight back as she becomes stronger and more educated. In the long run, a year of long, low, and a little on the forehand will be less damaging than a year of being tense and demanding that she learn to carry herself on mucles that don't even understand how to flex and relax yet.

    You ride the back legs, but you have to give those legs a little time to learn how to move with relaxation and rhythm before you ask them to carry the entire burden of both the horse and rider.
    Last edited by Trevelyan96; Nov. 14, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
    Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
    Witherun Farm
    http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/


    6 members found this post helpful.

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