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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2012
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    61

    Default what is the purpose of this action?

    long time lurker, first time poster.

    say a horse is *blowing through your aids "

    what is the purpose of raising/lifting the inside rein ( the horse twists his head around to the height of the rider's shoulder or a little below and booting with the inside leg/or whip making the horse cross the hindend/yield it (like making a turn on the forehand)

    what I witnessed was quite abrupt.

    the purpose of this would be what??

    I thought the proper way to solve this would be to stop the horse and ask for what you wanted again.

    I know you all were not there, but just wanted to ask for some opinions.

    Thanks !



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2011
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    1,768

    Default

    I would say it depends what my horse is doing. If he fully understands something and is just being a jerk about complying, I subscribe to the ask, tell, make school of thought. I will MAKE what I asked happen.

    Now, if my horse is doing the wrong thing because he doesn't understand, I'll explain it a different way until he gets it.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2005
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    523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHorseComesFirst View Post
    what is the purpose of raising/lifting the inside rein ( the horse twists his head around to the height of the rider's shoulder or a little below and booting with the inside leg/or whip making the horse cross the hindend/yield it (like making a turn on the forehand)

    what I witnessed was quite abrupt.

    Thanks !
    The people I've seen do this don't do it so abruptly and don't pull the nose to the shoulder, but they do lift the inside rein and give a decent tap with the inside leg. When I've seen this it is for a horse that hangs on and won't get off the inside rein with other methods, so lifting the inside rein takes it away from the horse, but the leg aid drives the horse into the outside rein (hopefully).

    Maybe the person you saw do this thought they were doing similarly but they are more aggressive in their actions?



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 26, 2006
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    479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHorseComesFirst View Post

    what is the purpose of raising/lifting the inside rein ( the horse twists his head around to the height of the rider's shoulder or a little below and booting with the inside leg/or whip making the horse cross the hindend/yield it (like making a turn on the forehand)
    .......

    I thought the proper way to solve this would be to stop the horse and ask for what you wanted again.
    Hmm, your description of the horse's head twisted around and "at the height of the rider's shoulder" doesn't seem to be a very productive correction. But I wasn't there, so I'm just guessing....Twisting the head around is usually counter-productive since that just lets the horse pop a shoulder and blow through your aids even more. However, I've sometimes had to do an ugly counterbend onto the outside rein + lots of leg to balance out a horse who is being a pig and hanging on one rein. You have to be careful not to PULL, though!

    Depending on the horse, "stopping the horse" and asking again is a recipe for escalation. When my lease mare is being a pig, my instructor tells me to go "more forward! I don't care where!!!!". Along with that, I am supposed to get her straight. No leg yielding or anything until we get forward and even in the bridle. 10 meter circles, however, can be very useful.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2008
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    227

    Default

    Are you sure that the horse was intentionally lifted to the height of the rider's shoulder, or was that the reaction of the horse and the rider was following it within the correction?

    FWIW, as a rider, if someone came up to me after a ride to sincerely ask about a correction I was making- what I felt the issue was in the horse that I was addressing and how I felt the correction would help it, I'd be happy to explain.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
    Location
    usa
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    6,121

    Default

    Either it is a pulley rein gone bad (one doesnt kick) OR it is an action of extreme lateral hyper flexion with rider pulling back on inside rein in order to get what they *think* is proper longitudinal flexion (short/btv/submissive).

    The later is a misunderstanding of how lateral flexion (NEVER by pulling back and never by torqueing) should give you longitudinal flexion. One can just lift the inside rein. And if the horse is not going forward, that comes from the longitudinal flexion first mentality in the first place.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2012
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    61

    Default

    I forgot to say, that I ask this with I should have asked since it was my horse the trainer was riding...

    The I am most certain the rider lifted to that height intentionally. for what purpose I haven't a clue. I am thinking it had something to do with getting my horse off the inside leg.

    this was way smaller than a 10m it was basically a fast paced turn on the forehand with a lot of bend.

    He is an older horse with carpal arthritis that has been recently injected, I am worried about that type of correction with him. :S


    this was way smaller than a 10m it was basically a fast paced turn on the forehand with a lot of bend.

    I am sure the trainer is way more knowledgeable Than I. so I will ask her, in the meantime, more opinions are appreciated. even in PM form.



  8. #8
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    Aug. 28, 2007
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    Triangle Area, NC
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    Default

    Sounds like a poorly executed Demi arret with a splash of one rein stop and a pinch of yahoo nonsense.
    To correct a horse incorrectly weighting the inside shoulder (which will feel like laying on the inside leg) I'd do leg yields to the wall, reinforcing with a whip, or renvers, or walk pirouettes...depending on the horse's education level
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  9. #9
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    Aug. 28, 2007
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    Default

    Sounds like a poorly executed Demi arret with a splash of one rein stop and a pinch of yahoo nonsense.
    To correct a horse incorrectly weighting the inside shoulder (which will feel like laying on the inside leg) I'd do leg yields to the wall, reinforcing with a whip, or renvers, or walk pirouettes...depending on the horse's education level
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  10. #10
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    Oct. 10, 2007
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    down south
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    Default

    If my guy is blowing through my aids and hanging on the inside rein I will pick up the inside rein a bit and kick with the inside leg then drop him. It's not as dramatic as your saying at all. We still go straight down the line. No turning involved just lifting a bit and a kick to say hey, your not listening. I then drop him for a brief sec., very short, and pick him back up. This wakes him up and he goes ok I'll do it. It also helps get him on the outside rein and to carry himself.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct. 30, 2009
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    1,896

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
    Sounds like a poorly executed Demi arret with a splash of one rein stop and a pinch of yahoo nonsense.
    To correct a horse incorrectly weighting the inside shoulder (which will feel like laying on the inside leg) I'd do leg yields to the wall, reinforcing with a whip, or renvers, or walk pirouettes...depending on the horse's education level
    I would add a sprinkle of frustration on the part of the rider.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Apr. 15, 2008
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    2,770

    Default

    it also sounds like the rider may not have had as good a grip on the outside rein as s/he should have and the horse overbent. or was this a repetitive thing?



  13. #13
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Oxford, PA
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    Default

    Sounds like a poorly executed one rein stop to me.
    "You post all your drama on Facebook and get mad when people judge you? You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?"



  14. #14
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    Aug. 22, 2005
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    mid-atlantic
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    It's hard to watch tough corrections on your own horse. I try to keep perspective with these types of questions:

    - Did it fix the horse?
    - Was he better to ride afterwards?
    - Was he better, the same, or worse to ride the next day?
    - Did the horse eventually understand what was being asked of him and did he seem to accept it, or simply submit?
    Last edited by retrofit; Nov. 9, 2012 at 11:58 AM.
    "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
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    7,538

    Default

    um.

    get a new trainer.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2006
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    3,505

    Default

    Did you ask the trainer?

    Was it repeatedly?

    Was the horse acting up?

    Is it known for running through the aids?
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  17. #17
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    2,115

    Default

    I've seen some cowboy trainers do this, something to do with getting the hindquarters to cross. Watching your horse be tightly corrected is difficult. I think it would be better for you and your horse if you would speak to the trainer.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*



  18. #18
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    Jul. 11, 2006
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    Default

    I'll vote with MBM...definitely get a different trainer...before your horse gets hurt. If this trainer is willing to yank your horse around in front of you like that, just what might you imagine is going on behind the barn when you are not there as witness?



  19. #19
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    Apr. 10, 2012
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    49

    Default

    I'm not sure what your background is with the horse/trainer, but I'm gonna have to throw my hat in with the "talk to your trainer and think about getting a new one" camp. If this was a one-off event and you're overall happy with the riding, that's one thing. But if something is making you fundamentally uneasy about the situation, listen to your gut. It's important to remember that just because the situation isn't right for you/your horse, doesn't mean that you're telling the trainer she's bad. It just isn't right for you guys. Understanding the distinction helps ending a variety of horse-related relationship when it's best for your horse.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    15,216

    Default

    I'll assume this isn't a rhetorical question.

    The purpose of all of this for a horse "blowing through the aids" is to get him to give to the bit immediately.

    Leaving the crude rider aside, the rough treatment is for a horse who has either done something dangerous like bolted without any give in his mouth, or who has been made very dull in his mouth. Raising the hand is about getting the horse to flex his pole as well as his neck to one side. Or, it's about not allowing a horse who is rooting down to keep doing that with his strong neck.

    That's only the first half. The small circle and kicking the hind end sideways is another piece of getting the horse to give in front. The trainer kept circling (small, or even the forelegs on a smaller circle than the hind end) because she hadn't felt the horse give with his inside hind leg yet and really soften on the inside rein.

    In actuality, the end goal is the opposite: One should care more about what the hind end is doing than the head or mouth. And most of the riding should come from the leg and seat, not the hand at all. And in most cases, this circling shouldn't go on and on. But bad trainers combined with horses who have not been taught to soften in the bridle from leg or hand, and who have been made mentally and physically dull sometimes get this treatment.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



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