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  1. #21
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    Even if I loved the country I was living in as an ex pat, I don't think I could renounce my US citizenship. I would imagine that there are others coming to the US who feel the same.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...


    5 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    So what? If I moved to the UK (for example) I'd have to pay taxes there, and I'd have to pay taxes HERE.
    well it really depends on what you would be doing and/or what you would own.
    If you don't own property in the US and have no income there, what taxes would you have left to pay in the US?



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    Even if I loved the country I was living in as an ex pat, I don't think I could renounce my US citizenship. I would imagine that there are others coming to the US who feel the same.
    true, but dual citizenship is possible with many countries, at least with France it is.



  4. #24
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    To the OP
    I haver been a permanent resident in the US for over 50 years (my first "green card" was actually GREEN).

    Since my parents did not become US citizens, I had no choice in the matter until I was 21. But that did not stop me actively participating in political campaigns. (Voting age then was 21 anyway).

    When I became 21, my own sense of identity was as a British subject and US permanent resident. I was comfortable with that identity. After careful consideration, including the inability to vote, I chose not to apply for US citizenship.

    Yes, it sometimes causes inconvenience, but not enough to change my mind.

    I can not vote in the UK either, as I am not a resident in the UK.

    I always figure that I can have MORE effect on an election by volunteering to a campaign than by one vote.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    9 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MILOUTE55 View Post
    well it really depends on what you would be doing and/or what you would own.
    If you don't own property in the US and have no income there, what taxes would you have left to pay in the US?
    US citizens (and permanent residents) with income outside the US DO have to file US tax returns. But they get a deduction/credit for taxes paid to the country where the money is earned, which usually result in not owing any money to the IRS.

    As a permanent resident, if I returned to the UK and earned mony there, I would still need to file US tax returns. But I would probably not owe anything on my UK income, as I would have paid UK taxes, which are at a higher rate than US taxes.
    Last edited by Janet; Nov. 6, 2012 at 12:02 PM. Reason: clarity
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    To the OP
    I haver been a permanent resident in the US for over 50 years (my first "green card" was actually GREEN).

    Since my parents did not become US citizens, I had no choice in the matter until I was 21. But that did not stop me actively participating in political campaigns. (Voting age then was 21 anyway).

    When I became 21, my own sense of identity was as a British subject and US permanent resident. I was comfortable with that identity. After careful consideration, including the inability to vote, I chose not to apply for US citizenship.

    Yes, it sometimes causes inconvenience, but not enough to change my mind.

    I always figure that I can have MORE effect on an election by volunteering to a campaign than by one vote.
    This is a very important point to make.
    Here today, gone tomorrow...



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MILOUTE55 View Post
    Like you just have to decide to become a US citizen...

    I lived and worked (hard) in the US 7 years and never even got a chance to start a greencard process, let alone a citizenship. I didn't study long enough, my greencard process was going to take 8 years (not to mention that it costs 12K nowadays if you use a lawyer which you have to do because paperwork is just impossible to fill in by yourself and you get very little chance of being approved if you do)

    But I did see people win the greencard lottery, move to Los Angeles only to spend the little money they had trying to make it as actors and go back home as they ran out of money after 6 months... That pissed me off so much, but I continue to play the lottery of course, hoping that my turn will come and that this country will let me come back and pay my taxes as I've always done. Now I'm playing from France as I haven't found a way to return to the US yet. Ironically, my 2 year old son is American as he was born in CA. Everybody tells me "it should be easy to get your greencard then"; oh sure, he can help me get my greencard.... when he turns 18! Talk about stupid immigration laws...

    I too wish I could vote, but it won't happen anytime soon... to compensate, I did get involved in the campaign a lot. I hope you did too Digit!
    I didn't say it was easy, although I think it should be easiER. I didn't know the UK allowed residents who weren't citizens to vote, and I don't think we should. I understand it's a very serious decision (as French Fry said) but I think if you aren't prepared to make that commitment then you shouldn't vote.

    I intended to be blunt but not rude or snarky in my original reply. I apologize if it read differently.
    Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    That is just plain NOT TRUE.

    If you were a resident in the United Kingdom, you COULD vote in UK elections, whether you were a citizen or not.

    And British citizens/subjects, who are not recently resident inthe UK, can NOT vote in UK elections.
    Seems a bit bass aackwards to me.
    Especially now one can stay knowledgeable of the issues and candidates of their home country.
    As a resident, but non-citizen, I and my offspring won't have to deal with long consequences of my votes. In other words I can vote for MY benefit instead do the benefit of the Country and its legal citizens. Much like a parasite.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    To the OP: which way would you vote? Red or Blue? Or none of my business! ;-)



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    To the OP: which way would you vote? Red or Blue? Or none of my business! ;-)
    I'm not going to speak for the OP here, but there is a big chance that....

    http://transhumanisten.files.wordpre...-elections.png
    Last edited by MILOUTE55; Nov. 6, 2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: bottom of the table was cut on first link


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Seems a bit bass aackwards to me.
    Especially now one can stay knowledgeable of the issues and candidates of their home country.
    As a resident, but non-citizen, I and my offspring won't have to deal with long consequences of my votes. In other words I can vote for MY benefit instead do the benefit of the Country and its legal citizens. Much like a parasite.
    There are arguments for both perspectives.

    The reason for allowing residents to vote, whether citizens or not, is that residents will have to abide by the laws, and taxes, of the country where they live.

    Citizens/subjects, who are not residents are not affected by the vast majority of the laws and taxes of the country they no longer live in.

    Furthermore, ther is the issue of logistics. The UK has a parliamentary system. You don't vote for Prime Minister, you vote for your LOCAL Member of Parliament. If you have been non residnet for a long time, which LOCAL MP election should you be voting in? There is not a separate MP for expats!

    Furthermore, in my parents (UK subjects, US permanent residents from their 30s until their deaths) case, their children (us) certainly DO "have to deal with long consequences" of the elections in whch they couold not participate.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    My husband lived here for nearly 10 years before he was able to become a citizen.

    Funny enough, I could become a Turkish citizen through our marriage just by signing a form. BUT, that can only happen if I renounce my US citizenship, even though my husband has dual citizenship! Oh, the weird laws people have...



  13. #33
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    I have dual citizenship with France and Canada. I can vote in elections in both countries since I am registered with the French consulate in Toronto. I don't though because I feel much more detached from French politics even though I keep informed.
    Janet, French citizens living abroad vote for candidates living abroad but chosen to represent them in France. I must admit that the Consulate is always late at sending info and all the paperwork to vote by proxy or by mail and I would have to go to Toronto if I really wanted to vote. Only an hour away, but still...



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    There are arguments for both perspectives.

    The reason for allowing residents to vote, whether citizens or not, is that residents will have to abide by the laws, and taxes, of the country where they live.

    Citizens/subjects, who are not residents are not affected by the vast majority of the laws and taxes of the country they no longer live in.

    Furthermore, ther is the issue of logistics. The UK has a parliamentary system. You don't vote for Prime Minister, you vote for your LOCAL Member of Parliament. If you have been non residnet for a long time, which LOCAL MP election should you be voting in? There is not a separate MP for expats!

    Furthermore, in my parents (UK subjects, US permanent residents from their 30s until their deaths) case, their children (us) certainly DO "have to deal with long consequences" of the elections in whch they couold not participate.
    Very logical response, as expected from you.
    My opinion is different in that resident status implies (IMO) one is a visitor and can chose to leave at any time. Citizen status implies intimate relationship to a city, county, state or country.

    While the parasite does have to deal with the long term consequences of the host, many parasites move to a new host when the current host no longer provides subsidence.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Very logical response, as expected from you.
    My opinion is different in that resident status implies (IMO) one is a visitor and can chose to leave at any time. Citizen status implies intimate relationship to a city, county, state or country.

    While the parasite does have to deal with the long term consequences of the host, many parasites move to a new host when the current host no longer provides subsidence.
    Well, IMHO the term "PERMANENT Resident" implies that one is NOT a visitor, but living here PERMANENETLY, and no more likely to move away than a citizen.

    My father spoke, for years, about "retiring to the UK", but he never did.

    While I know you don't mean it that way, I DO resent being called a "parasite".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseImpression View Post
    I have dual citizenship with France and Canada. I can vote in elections in both countries since I am registered with the French consulate in Toronto. I don't though because I feel much more detached from French politics even though I keep informed.
    Janet, French citizens living abroad vote for candidates living abroad but chosen to represent them in France. I must admit that the Consulate is always late at sending info and all the paperwork to vote by proxy or by mail and I would have to go to Toronto if I really wanted to vote. Only an hour away, but still...
    So you get to vote in both, and I get to vote in neither.

    Life just isn't fair ! (can't find the smiley button) :-)
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Very logical response, as expected from you.
    My opinion is different in that resident status implies (IMO) one is a visitor and can chose to leave at any time. Citizen status implies intimate relationship to a city, county, state or country.

    While the parasite does have to deal with the long term consequences of the host, many parasites move to a new host when the current host no longer provides subsidence.
    There is no "implication" behind 'resident status'. It's an actual, real thing. When an individual receives their green card, they become a Permanent Resident Alien of the US. Key word: permanent. They can live in, work in, and travel about this country freely for as long as they want because they've gone through the economic and legal pathways of obtaining the permissions required to do so.

    And as many have pointed out, just because a green card holder chooses to naturalize at one point doesn't mean they've necessarily elected to give up their birth country's citizenship. Many country's don't require that, so a lot of naturalized US citizens are dual citizens that can still "leave at any time".

    Further, the path to permanent residency (naturalization aside) is so challenging, it's a wonder anyone without significant advantages and means ever achieves it. When my husband and I consulted with our immigration attorney ($450 for the consultation), we were told "we wouldn't need her services because a white male doctor from Germany would have no issues getting his green card processed very swiftly." His was done in 9 months. A cousin of mine spent upwards of $10,000 when all was said and done getting his Brazilian wife's green card processed using an immigration attorney. It took almost 2 years.
    Here today, gone tomorrow...



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Seems a bit bass aackwards to me.
    Especially now one can stay knowledgeable of the issues and candidates of their home country.
    That's because it's not true.

    "To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:

    be 18 years of age or over on polling day
    be resident in the UK
    be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
    not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote "

    I do live here. I can't vote here.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    Even if I loved the country I was living in as an ex pat, I don't think I could renounce my US citizenship. I would imagine that there are others coming to the US who feel the same.
    This. My hubby is a UK citizen. He has a permanent resident card (green card). He doesn't plan on becoming a US citizen. He wants to keep his UK roots. And I don't blame him. If I were to move to another country for a long period of time, I would still keep my US citizenship. That's who I am.

    Personally, I don't care if he ever changes it. It's his choice. Only thing he really can't do that seems to matter to him is vote. But since he has chosen not to become a citizen, he doesn't complain that he can't.

    Side note: It took about 6 months after we were married for him to get his temporary permanent resident card. And then about 6 more months after that to get his permanent resident card. Cost us about $2500. He was also here on a work Visa and was going through the process of getting a permanent resident card through work. Before we got married, he decided he would sever that and just go through spousal sponsorship. Was much faster. It probably would have been years if he has stuck with the work process. And in the interim, he couldn't change jobs. This was back in 2004. It was a little bit of a more difficult process because of 9/11.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulesGirl View Post
    That's because it's not true.

    "To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:

    be 18 years of age or over on polling day
    be resident in the UK
    be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
    not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote "

    I do live here. I can't vote here.
    OK, I stand corrected. It certainly USED to be the case that non-citizen residents could vote.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



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