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  1. #221
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    Unfortunately, as I understand things in the wake of the Supreme Court decision, the requirement for providing coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions (which I do think is good) stood but the requirement that all purchase coverage was struck down. In order to cover the sickest, we need all to pay in to the system. I think we're now looking at a set up destined to fail.

    I have never thought that I would save money under Obamacare or whatever it comes to be. And I'm fine with that. I just don't see what's currently in the works as sustainable. I've heard the good and bad first hand from friends and Canada, and given how long they've been at nationalized medicine, it would have seemed wise to model our system on theirs. Right now, just under 1k a month comes from take home pay and goes to Blue Cross (this is on top of my employer contribution), I don't think it would make much difference to me if that was going to the federal government instead to pay for comparable health care.



  2. #222
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    Aug. 20, 2006
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    wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazednconfused View Post
    $29 doesn't buy any health insurance in any state I am aware of. It is the only 'luxury' I have, and would not make any difference as to whether I could purchase insurance or not.

    As for "I can be very sorry they were hurt in the first place, and I am". It's an exercise in absurdity, and a distinction without a difference.

    Again, I'm glad for you that you could make enough money, go to school, etc and have good benefits or make enough money to purchase your own. Not everyone is that lucky (especially when they've just experienced a layoff). I too, hope one day that I will make that kind of money and have good benefits. I could sort of understand your specious, idiotic argument if I was off gallivanting on vacation, eating out at all, buying expensive clothes, or doing drugs. I could even understand being irritated if I got hurt by a horse/at work. But I'm not. Not that I should justify to ANYONE why I shouldn't have to live with a permanent deformity and subsequent arthritis because someone else wasn't paying attention and made a horrible, stupid mistake.

    It doesn't matter whether I bag groceries, wait tables, or muck stalls for a living. There is absolutely no reason why someone as hard working as me should be in this situation.

    (Oh, just to add - the job I was hired for full time two days before the accident, in addition to the other two farmettes I service would have probably provided me with enough extra income that I could have bought one of those high deductible plans, with some shifting of my budget. But guess what, I never got the opportunity because of the idiot who hit me! Awesome.)

    Apparently logic fails people (Particularly Americans, which is especially funny.) on this subject. Sad. I hope the intelligent and empathetic will prevail, someday.
    As long as you indulge in luxuries, you are not trying your best. You say you have no others, but how am I to know what you consider a luxury or necessity? Apparently you can't live without your smartphone, so we already disagree.

    Just because you can't see a distinction between "I am so sorry you were hurt" and "You didn't choose to buy insurance so you weren't treated as fast as you could have been" - doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

    Luck had very little to do with whatever money I've made or success I've had. Hard work, sacrifice, and making the hard choices had everything to do with it. Oh, and not having my parents sympathize with me when I made bad choices - boy, were they unsympathetic! But it toughened me right up and I learned to choose better the next time. Better choices equal better outcomes, though probably not perfect ones.

    You are right that no one as hardworking as you should be in this position. That's why I favor reforming our healthcare system. But for the current moment, the system is what it is and we have to deal with it as it is. That means making sacrifices to get health insurance if you want the best care you can get (however flawed that care may be).

    Though it seems you cannot see it, I am truly sorry you were hurt. I wish our system were different so that your course would have been easier, but as I keep saying, it is what it is and we have to deal with it.

    Liz


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #223
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    Aug. 12, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshfield View Post
    Unfortunately, as I understand things in the wake of the Supreme Court decision, the requirement for providing coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions (which I do think is good) stood but the requirement that all purchase coverage was struck down. In order to cover the sickest, we need all to pay in to the system. I think we're now looking at a set up destined to fail.
    The Supreme Court DID uphold the individual mandate provision, by considering it a tax. The worry before the SCOTUS decision was that, if the individual mandate was struck down, the rest of the bill, as you say, may not have been able to survive.



  4. #224
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazednconfused View Post
    With the election looming upon us, I'm sure my story won't change anyone's vote, but perhaps it will at least make you think.

    I'm a moderate in almost every way, and think both major parties have gone pretty far off track in their extreme views ("Hand outs for everyone, damn the cost!" vs "Legitimate rape, pay your own way in ALL THE WAYS!" etc). But as of october 6th, I essentially turned into a single issue voter. Here's why.

    I was laid off from my job managing a jumper/eventer barn in the first week of september. My former employers were kind enough to pay me for october as severance (extremely rare in the horse industry and much appreciated!). I immediately began pounding the pavement looking for a new job, did lots of petsitting, piled up cash as my favorite financial guru, Dave Ramsey, would say to do. Because I networked very well and am good at what I do, I was hired almost immediately part time at a dressage barn, just two or three weeks after I was given my notice.

    I am a single 24 year old. I have been financially independent and earned my own way entirely from the time I was 19 years old. I've had three sick days in my entire working life (approx 7 years). My parents do not have health insurance so I am ineligible to be on their plan. Any independently purchased plans didn't make sense or were totally out of my reach financially. So I am uninsured, though pretty much totally healthy.

    On october 3rd, my new boss said she wanted to hire me full time beginning in late october. Great! I'm fully employed, managed things well enough that I'll be fine through october. All is well...

    And then, on my way to work on October 6th, everything changed. I was on my way to work on my Vespa, when a woman in a jeep failed to yield to oncoming traffic, and made a left directly into my path at 45mph. She t-boned me in her right bumper, I landed on my back, saw stars. Luckily she stayed, and there were several witnesses. I had a nurse friend pick me up and take me to the hospital after the cops, ambulance, firetruck etc arrived. I was xrayed and diagnosed with a severely broken wrist that went right through the joint on my right (ie dominant hand), and was referred to a specialist - an orthopedic surgeon.

    The ortho saw me the following thursday and said I would need a CT scan, and then likely surgery - several pins, and a titanium plate. Great, I had medical payments on my insurance policy, and since she was at fault, her insurance would be paying for it regardless! Thought we were good to go.

    NOT SO FAST. The orthopedic surgeon wouldn't accept third party billing (ie my car insurance), and neither would my local hospital. They offered to do it for $3,800 in cash. Now, if I had that kind of cash laying around, I could probably buy health insurance, now wouldn't I?

    Now, you say, isn't there some sort of state or county funding you could get? Yes, but I was deemed ineligible, because there was an at fault party in a motor vehicle collision.

    But, you say, shouldn't her insurance be paying for it?! Well yes, but a) the accident report was not finished until almost two weeks post accident, so there was no way to assign fault, and b) They pay out in a lump sum settlement at the end of things, not as the medical bills are coming in.

    Last week, my aunt and uncle offered to lend me the money to get it taken care of, so I called the first surgeon to see if they could still do it, to which they responded "Dr X probably does not have time on his surgery schedule to do it, and because you are three weeks from the break, you may be beyond the point where we can fix you." I'm not sure if anyone has ever told you that you were unfixable, but I can assure you that you can go almost no lower. Did I mention I'd been in the same temporary splint for over two weeks? I had to get a nurse friend of mine to change it out in a back room during her night shift.

    So in the end I had to hire an attorney, go to a neighboring county in a bigger city to find a surgeon who would put me back together again, and borrow $3,000+ as a deposit and have the attorney file a lien on the remaining insane amount of money that this surgery cost. I have had to pay for my own prescriptions, and because I don't have a GP, I cannot get them refilled.

    Had my aunt and uncle not offered this to me, I might well still be sitting here with a severely displaced broken wrist, fusing together, deformed. In the meantime, I cannot do the job that I was hired to do, though I'm hoping to at least be able to clean stalls and feed with my left hand once I have a cast. In a supposedly civilized country like this one, this is absolutely f%^$king unacceptable. I cannot be the only person that this has ever happened to, and it happening to one is too many. Every week that this wasn't dealt with was a week I wasn't working, wasn't contributing taxes, wasn't spending money.

    Oh, now I think I hit my head when it happened (despite a very protective, expensive helmet) and I'm concerned that I'm going to run into the same issues, that I can't afford a neurologist or MRI to be sure.

    Like I said, I'm doubtful this will change anyone's vote, but maybe it will make you think. Just an ordinary taxpaying american citizen, trying to go to work, doing nothing wrong, and my life was forever changed. I don't believe this is how, I, as an american citizen ought to be treated in our healthcare system.
    I confess I haven't read any other comments.
    I fail to understand how this relates at all to government healthcare? I AM NOT a supporter of it by the way, but as long as they don't force my family off my husbands medical plan that we get through his job, then who am I to say. Now, if this had happened and you were under one of the plans offered by Obama care ( what a joke, It should be called more "government control plan") then I can see how it relates.

    The one thing that my brother found out when living in another country that has this type of " government healthcare system" is that you can't always expect to be treated in a timely fashion, treated well, treated at all. The wait is very long sometimes and when dealing with children that can be hard to do.

    You were without insurance, period.I am guessing that you should have went ahead and gotten treatment and made tiny, tiny payments until you got your settlement from the person at fault. How is your wrist?



  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by prairiewind2 View Post
    You say you have no others, but how am I to know what you consider a luxury or necessity? Apparently you can't live without your smartphone, so we already disagree.
    IMO, it's not your place (or mine or anyone else's) to know, and pass judgment on, what the OP considers luxuries versus necessities. The phone is a non-issue, many, many people rely only on cell phones these days and have no landline and $29 is hardly expensive, it's what we pay for a landline with only basic, local service. Having a phone of some kind is a necessity in my book.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  6. #226
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    Aug. 20, 2006
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    wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by two sticks View Post
    Do you see the OP's monthly budget here? How do you determine she fits in first category and not the second?

    If the best plan available for the OP, as she mentioned, is $250/ a month with a 3K deductible, where should she cut the other $221 from? Food? Rent? Gas to get to work? Emergency fund? Op already said she doesn't eat out and budgets carefully.

    Even then, she would need to save up an additional $3K just to meet that deductible before she would be given any treatment anyway - she would be in the same spot she's already in.

    I certainly hope if anything should happen to you, others would treat you with a little more empathy and a little less judgement than you show here.

    For those asking where our American sense of community is - it's right next to our sense of empathy for others - kicked to the curb to make way for greed and selfishness.
    I don't know her budget, but I do know that she hasn't given up all her luxuries. That means she isn't trying as hard as she could. Hence my lack of sympathy. There are people who really do give up all luxuries for insurance, and maybe still can't afford it. For them, I have the deepest sympathy.

    Our system sucks. I've already said that. I've also said I'd pay higher taxes for universal care. But I won't sympathize with folks who aren't trying as hard as they can, and who expect me to pay for their care.

    Liz


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #227
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    Aug. 20, 2006
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    wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    IMO, it's not your place (or mine or anyone else's) to know, and pass judgment on, what the OP considers luxuries versus necessities. The phone is a non-issue, many, many people rely only on cell phones these days and have no landline and $29 is hardly expensive, it's what we pay for a landline with only basic, local service. Having a phone of some kind is a necessity in my book.
    No, the smartphone costs $29 more than a regular cell. I'd didn't expect her to give up a cell, just a smartphone. I don't have a smartphone because I have foregone one in order to pay my extremely high health insurance costs. Why should I be happy to pay for her health care when she has things I have given up in order to keep my own health insurance?

    Liz


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #228
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    Feb. 4, 2006
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    You've given up many other things in addition to a smartphone to afford your health insurance. I have nothing left to give up. Also, the smartphone was a necessity for my work (internet access is required for google calendar which we used extensively for scheduling of shows, farrier, vet, days off, etc). To cancel the plan now would cost me $300+, which I do not have, and quite frankly I find it useful for a lot of things that end up saving me money.

    And you know what, I should not have to give up everything including my savings just to have decent healthcare. I shouldn't really be having to spell out my budget here to anyone. I realize I'm just a poster out here on the internet, and you don't have to believe me. But when I say I budget very strictly, I don't eat out, I don't buy anything that isn't an absolute necessity (necessity: I had no pairs of jeans left without holes in them, which I did not want to go to my new job in. I went to ross and purchased one pair of good quality denim jeans for $14. I didn't go to Guess, Polo, or Pacsun where a similar pair would have run me $50-60+). You can ask any friend or family member and they will be happy to tell you how financially responsible I have learned to be.

    You won't, I'm sure, as you are hell bent on believing that I have $200 laying around that I'm using for hookers and blow, but ought to be using on the insurance I don't have


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #229
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    May. 15, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    The Supreme Court DID uphold the individual mandate provision, by considering it a tax. The worry before the SCOTUS decision was that, if the individual mandate was struck down, the rest of the bill, as you say, may not have been able to survive.
    While true, the mandate is actually pretty toothless. Congress didn't include a legal penalty for failure to pay it and the ACA prevents the IRS from engaging in aggressive efforts to collect it, so the only way for the IRS to collect it if you don't pay is to seize your tax refund. Taxpayers who don't pay the "I have no health insurance" tax can adjust their withholding so that they owe a bit instead of getting refunds.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazednconfused View Post
    And you know what, I should not have to give up everything including my savings just to have decent healthcare.
    And right there is where our basic philosophies differ. I will do - and have done - anything I can to prevent myself being a burden on society. That included taking jobs I didn't want and giving up jobs I did. The system may suck, but it is what it is and I've always dealt with it as it is.

    We will never come to a meeting of the minds when our minds work so differently, so we should really agree to disagree. It's the adult thing to do.

    Liz, who wonders why the emoticon box isn't showing when she needs it...never mind. I see I have to ask for it now.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #231
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by gieriscm View Post
    While true, the mandate is actually pretty toothless. Congress didn't include a legal penalty for failure to pay it and the ACA prevents the IRS from engaging in aggressive efforts to collect it, so the only way for the IRS to collect it if you don't pay is to seize your tax refund. Taxpayers who don't pay the "I have no health insurance" tax can adjust their withholding so that they owe a bit instead of getting refunds.
    I don't understand your point, since they'll still have to pay.



  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by prairiewind2 View Post
    And right there is where our basic philosophies differ. I will do - and have done - anything I can to prevent myself being a burden on society. That included taking jobs I didn't want and giving up jobs I did. The system may suck, but it is what it is and I've always dealt with it as it is.

    We will never come to a meeting of the minds when our minds work so differently, so we should really agree to disagree. It's the adult thing to do.

    Liz, who wonders why the emoticon box isn't showing when she needs it...never mind. I see I have to ask for it now.
    Who also still doesn't get it. You choose to believe I waste my money and choose not to have healthcare. Nothing I say, including giving you a copy of my bank statements would change your mind. Even though your assumptions of what my financial situation is could not be further from the truth.

    BTW - do you believe I enjoy shoveling horse crap for a living?? I feel very lucky to have gotten the jobs I did, and the barn that hired me still wants me once I'm recovered.

    Regardless of what you believe about my finances and budget (which again are incorrect), there are still millions of people just like me who are trying to get by in a difficult economy, are budgeting as best they can, not buying things they don't need, and guess what, their money tree ain't in the backyard either, and they can't get the healthcare they need. I'm not advocating cadillac medical plans for free to everyone, or supporting someone's painkiller habit, etc. But yes, I think if every other civilized country has been able to figure this out, we have no excuse.

    BTW, this is irrelevant for me now, because I did get the care I needed eventually. But it's not just about one case study. It's about lots of people that go without healthcare, and I don't believe it is morally right.

    About two weeks in, when they told me "we may not be able to fix you" - I'd have been really okay with having been put on a Canadian waitlist. At least there would have been the prospect of getting it fixed eventually even if they had to rebreak it. In my situation I felt completely desperate and helpless. Again, I ask you take a mile in someone else's shoes for a moment, and consider how that must feel to someone. This could happen to someone without insurance, or even with (if you couldn't meet the deductible, it wasn't covered, or related to a prexisting condition).


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #233
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    I don't think anyone should have to make decisions such as, "Do I pay for rent or food this month, or pay my healthcare premiums so I can continue to have care?" It seems completely sick to me that in our modern society, people have to make these kinds of choices.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    I confess I haven't read any other comments.
    I fail to understand how this relates at all to government healthcare? I AM NOT a supporter of it by the way, but as long as they don't force my family off my husbands medical plan that we get through his job, then who am I to say. Now, if this had happened and you were under one of the plans offered by Obama care ( what a joke, It should be called more "government control plan") then I can see how it relates.

    The one thing that my brother found out when living in another country that has this type of " government healthcare system" is that you can't always expect to be treated in a timely fashion, treated well, treated at all. The wait is very long sometimes and when dealing with children that can be hard to do.

    You were without insurance, period.I am guessing that you should have went ahead and gotten treatment and made tiny, tiny payments until you got your settlement from the person at fault. How is your wrist?
    I've already addressed most of these points though I realize you haven't read it.

    The orthopedic surgeons I spoke to locally (four total IIRC) would not do a payment plan, or wanted a huge deposit that I did not have, if I wanted to not be homeless, anyway. A couple of them wouldn't even speak to me once I said I didn't have insurance. I would have gladly done that if it were offered to me.

    Still hurts and I have almost zero flexibility in my fingers, but it will take time. I have a followup with the surgeon on Monday, and I'm looking forward to seeing the xrays and hopefully getting casted and on my way to getting some PT so I can go back to work ASAP (So that way I can make more money to spend on luxuries like...groceries, and my car insurance )


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I don't understand your point, since they'll still have to pay.
    I get it, and it is correct. The IRS has no really effective way to go after the fine for not having health insurance under the individual mandate for those who owe on their return or break even. For those returns with refunds, it's easy, they can just deduct the fine from the refund check before they send it. In theory some objectors may change their W-4 forms to try to eliminate their refund to avoid this.

    I don't know that people can get away with it forever, I'm assuming that interest on unpaid penalties will apply. I wonder if the IRS will be able to put liens on anything to collect? I know they won't be allowed to impose criminal charges for unpaid insurance penalties.



  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazednconfused View Post

    About two weeks in, when they told me "we may not be able to fix you" - I'd have been really okay with having been put on a Canadian waitlist. At least there would have been the prospect of getting it fixed eventually even if they had to rebreak it.
    I'm pretty sure this break would not have been waitlisted in Canada. Acute injuries get fixed asap, at least in my experience.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I don't understand your point, since they'll still have to pay.
    I adjust my withholding so I owe $100 in income taxes.

    I have no insurance so the fine is $700 (single) or $2000 (family). In theory I need to send the IRS a check for $800 or $2100. In practice I send a check for $100 and tell them to pound sand for the rest, and the worst they can do is send me a nasty letter.



  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karosel View Post
    I'm pretty sure this break would not have been waitlisted in Canada. Acute injuries get fixed asap, at least in my experience.


    My mom broke her ankle falling off a bicycle (with the help of our dog). She went to the hospital and was into surgery either later that day/the next day, IIRC.

    My brother has had asthma attacks - treated ASAP.

    My sister fractured her wrist - cast the next day (didn't go to the Dr. until the next day).

    I agree with the previous poster who noted that many of the "problems" being posted on here about the Canadian system seem to come 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. hand. All of the Canadians seem to be happy with our system overall. I know I am.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by prairiewind2 View Post
    As long as you indulge in luxuries, you are not trying your best.
    You would have a point IF the cost of Dazed's data plan was the deciding factor between insurance and no insurance. It is not. Even if she gave up the data plan, she would still be short $221. Until she has that much in "disposable" income, she cannot afford insurance.

    Just like my son.

    And FWIW, I choose to pay for my son's data plan (and basic lines for my mother, my sister and my only nephew). I choose not to have cable so that I can do this for them.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #240
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    I have actually waded through most of the posts.

    OP - I think you have two different issues here, and you have muddled them into one giant tirade.

    First, your main complaint in this situation is with how providers accept payment/insurance. That has nothing to do with Obamacare. You have been very clear that you expect that the other person's insurance is going to cover the expenses related to your injury. Here is the thing - those providers have no way to know that once it is all said and done that the other party's insurance will actually cover those costs.

    The other side of your complaint is that you cannot afford even a catastropic policy. Based on what you have told us about your finances, you probably can't afford it. But what you are refusing to see is that you chose a job that a) did not provide insurance and b) did not pay enough for you to get policy on your own. That was a *choice* that *you* made, apparently years ago. Several posters have pointed out that you could have made different choices. You said that in the month prior to your latest accident you had applied to big box places, but had not gotten an interview. That is all well and good, but how about the last 7 years?

    I'm not going to preach about luxuries. You, and only you, know what you can and can't live without. All I will say is that I was put out on my own at 18. Two full time jobs and full time classes left little time for sleep, and no time for fun. But I was determined to *not* depend on anyone ever again. It is all about priorities.

    And FWIW, you really cannot determine where your wrist would be even if you had surgery that day. Maybe no better than where you are now. And just because your fingers are stiff now, once you get back to using the hand more, you might be surprised how quickly it comes back.


    1 members found this post helpful.

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