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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_red_ottb View Post
    Sexually exposed? No. Tolerant and educated about things that are significant issues and that affect people's rights, and their treatment as equal human beings? Yes. Children need to be taught that it's okay to be different. Sometimes women have a penis. Sometimes men have a uterus, OMG! And they need to know that it's not okay to isolate these people who already struggle with so much.

    It sounds like your issue is more the idea of your kid being forced to be naked/see other nakedness in a setting with people she's not comfortable with. That's fine. Perhaps the high school teams need to find another locker room, separate from those used by adult women with genitals of all kinds.

    The sheer amount of transphobia on this thread is beyond depressing.
    So, no my husband does not hang around our teenage daughter naked regularly, ya we are such bad parents. I also don't hang out with my 12 year old son naked , so yes again call me a bad parent. Really, transphobia ? How about letting children find their way in their own time so they do not become reationary to everything ?


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  2. #62
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    The problem isn't whether or not SHE (and yes, I am FIRMLY in the camp that gender goes WAY beyond the structure of our genitalia or our chromosomes) is nude in an appropriate place (BTW, since when are children allowed in the sauna? Every club I've ever belonged to had at least a 16+ if not 18+ restriction; same with the jacuzzis), but it lies in how we as a society present gender to our children. Another poster used the term "gender shaming" and I couldn't agree more. As a culture, we are mortified by the human body. We cover it up and we don't talk about it and we act as though it is something dirty. No, not all people, of course not, but I hear more negativity about the human body than positivity.

    I'm a queer (biological and self-identifying) woman. I have not only dated natural women and men, but I have also dated pre and post operative transgendered people (FTM and MTF). Gender was NEVER imposed upon me as a child, nor were any stereotypes, nor was the concept that how we are born is how we all should stay. I grew up in a pretty liberal area and I wasn't the only one who was raised this way. I was never afraid to use appropriate pronouns, I never expected that another child would have a mommy and a daddy; I even have several friends whose fathers are transgendered and were always very open about it.

    There is a MASSIVE difference between having a co-ed locker room and allowing a transgendered person to be themselves in the locker room of their identified gender. The person in question is a female. She happens to have the "wrong" (and god, I hate that term in this scenario) parts. Put yourself in her shoes. How uncomfortable would you feel if you had the "wrong" parts, but were forced to sort yourself by those parts and not by your identity. Transgendered people go through this every day and it can lead to a lot of unnecessary trauma.

    There are quite a few transgendered people who - for a variety of reasons - don't go through a full transition. Often it is for financial or familial reasons; for FTMs it is usually because we simply aren't great at FTM procedures as of yet. We are able to construct very lovely, working vaginas, but it's quite a bit more complicated to construct a lovely, anatomical, functioning penis. So how on earth is it fair to say that just because someone was unable to have full transitionary surgery that they aren't allowed to fully assimilate into their identified gender?

    And for all the posters who have said a 15 year old girl shouldn't be exposed to a penis...seriously? Seriously? Seriously. If you're naive enough to think that at 15 a teenage girl has not seen a penis in some capacity, then you might want to check your calendars. It's 2012. A great number of these girls have had sex ed by the time they're 12 and if they haven't - statistically speaking - they've not only seen one in person but have a good idea of how they work. We also live in the age of the internet; unless they are living incredibly sheltered lives, they've done their fair share of googling. But beyond all that and back to my original point, the far bigger problem is that in our society this is a "problem". That people are even taking issue with this. We're all humans. We all have genitalia. Why are we so. freaking. hung. up. about it? What matters is who a person is, not what's chilling out between their thighs. Ugh.

    Also, this: http://offbeatmama.com/2012/09/queer-parenting It gives a far more eloquent explanation than I've managed here.
    Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.


    33 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    I couldn't agree more. Excellent post Punkie, (clap, clap).
    Yogurt - If you're so cultured, how come I never see you at the opera? Steven Colbert


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    Uhhh...if the minors need to never be "forced" to see anyone else's genitals (and since your language is inclusive, I assume you also mean girls not being "forced" to see women's vaginas either), then the minors need to not be using a changing room with common showers and change areas.

    Remove Colleen, and these girls have surely seen more than their share of vajayjay goodness. After all, this locker room they were perfectly happy using didn't even have any curtains installed until Colleen became an issue!
    My language was intentionally inclusive. I don't think that a minor should be forced to be around a penis or vagina or anything else if they don't want to.

    I have ZERO issue with Colleen using these facilities and I am glad that she feels comfortable doing so. I do think it is insensitive for any adult to go out of their way to not cover up their genitals around a minor. Call it American prudishness or what have you, but I don't think it is the responsibility of another adult to try and desensitize someones child to nudity.

    I am an adult and I have zero desire to sit in a sauna with anyone who has their genitals exposed. I also have the freedom to remove myself from a situation should it arise. These teens are being told to use these facilities. They do not have a choice, their needs should be respected.

    I do believe in tolerance and I don't think a flash of skin while changing clothes is going to scar anyone but regardless of genital shape it can be uncomfortable to sit in an enclosed box with strangers genitals exposed.

    If Colleen or any other woman wants to lay spread eagle, or her head, or in any position she chooses in the sauna when adults are around then so be it. However, when children are present, toss a towel over your lap. I don't believe a sauna experience is contingent upon genitals receiving adequate steaming.

    I support having a towel (or heck, even a washcloth) rule for the sauna for ALL adults when children are sharing the facility. These are minors and I don't think that it is the right of another adult to choose the degree of nudity that child is exposed to.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
    These teens are being told to use these facilities. They do not have a choice, their needs should be respected.
    They're not being told to use the sauna. They're there to change, swim, shower and change again. They're attending a high school swim practice, not a spa.

    And like another poster, I have yet to see a public or university-level pool/gym facility that allows kids into the sauna. 16 is the youngest I've seen allowed, and usually they need to be 18. Liability reasons.

    *** although when I'm wrong, I'll admit it At the Evergreen facility kids over the age of 13 are allowed into the sauna without supervision (under 13 also allowed, but supervised).
    And sitting on a towel is merely "recommended". No mention of covering up with one


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    So, no my husband does not hang around our teenage daughter naked regularly, ya we are such bad parents. I also don't hang out with my 12 year old son naked , so yes again call me a bad parent. Really, transphobia ? How about letting children find their way in their own time so they do not become reationary to everything ?
    Where did I accuse you of being a bad parent? The transphobia comment wasn't even directed at you. I didn't accuse anyone of being a bad parent.

    And the point of teaching children about these things is to prevent them from being reactionary to this stuff. So it's just normal acceptance people are weird and different and awesome.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    Disagreement to a particular situation does not equal trans phobia.
    Certainly not, but several of the sentiments expressed here have been along the lines of "ALL pre op trans women should have separate locker rooms/change elsewhere/cover up!" Those sorts of sentiments do reek of transphobia.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Wow! Is this an off topic day or what?



  9. #69
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    WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have,
    at this moment, been thrown up from below!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayside View Post
    Uhm, then just don't stare at it. I can't imagine sweaty post-workout vaginas hanging out in the locker room are really any more appealing, and it's not like she's running up to mushroom print your forehead or anything, right?
    Ohh...your way with words cracked me up. But I agree.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    I do have a teenaged daughter and although we are not very modest around the house, my own daughter would likely not be comfortable. I think consideration of children is always important not so much the transgendered when in this situation.
    A teenager is old enough to be educated on what being transgender is. It would be an excellent time to talk to her about tolerance of those who are different or have physical problems.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Look, there's educating kids and talking about issues like being transgendered, and there's the reality of sitting next to a naked person of whatever gender!

    I think a lot of the people saying it should be no issue for kids do not have their own children. I have three boys; I would not want any naked adult in a locker room with them (well, maybe the 18 year old would be OK :-) ).

    I was a very well educated, but very shy teenager. I most certainly knew what a penis looked like from pictures etc. But no, I had not seen one in the flesh until I was 18. And if I were 16 and went into a sauna, I would have wanted to die and disappear through the floor if there was a naked penis there!

    No, not every teenaged girl would be as uncomfortable as I would have been, but not every one would be as comfortable (regardless of how tolerantly she had been brought up) as some of you seem to say they "should" be.


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  13. #73
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    This is a case where long-ingrained social customs and expectations 1) about children being around naked adults, 2) locker rooms for children or adults being segregated by gender, and 3) equitable treatment for all, come crashing together. The transgender aspect is something of a distractor here.

    In a different culture or a nudist colony, this situation might not be a problem. And it's not a matter of people needing to 'get used to it' which is a bit overbearing in the circumstances.

    I'd be uncomfortable naked in a locker room with little kids because for some (but not all, depending upon their parental home environment) it would make THEM uncomfortable. Little kids are not just diminutive adults, and the differences between adult bodies -- of either gender -- and kids' bodies is something that can be troubling to some kids due to their stage of development. In our culture we've generally avoided mixing little kids, adults and nudity. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's merely customary, however, enforcing any particular scenario that contravenes that custom not only will be controversial but seems to me will aggress against the reasonable expectation that parents and their children have that their own accustomed norms be honored.

    I'd think reasonable people having a thoughtful discussion should be able to work out a solution that might require a bit of flexibility and accommodation on all sides. For that matter, it's perfectly possible to change clothes with others around in a way that is reasonably discreet.
    If I knew what I were doing, why would I take lessons?

    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamantane View Post
    This is a case where long-ingrained social customs and expectations 1) about children being around naked adults, 2) locker rooms for children or adults being segregated by gender, and 3) equitable treatment for all, come crashing together. The transgender aspect is something of a distractor here.

    ...

    In our culture we've generally avoided mixing little kids, adults and nudity. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's merely customary, however, enforcing any particular scenario that contravenes that custom not only will be controversial but seems to me will aggress against the reasonable expectation that parents and their children have that their own accustomed norms be honored.

    I'd think reasonable people having a thoughtful discussion should be able to work out a solution that might require a bit of flexibility and accommodation on all sides. For that matter, it's perfectly possible to change clothes with others around in a way that is reasonably discreet.
    They have found a work-around - the swim team is using a smaller change room instead of the main room with the sauna access.

    If the goal is to preserve some kind of "no nekkid adults with nekkid kids" custom, that swim team should never have been allowed into the general change room in the first place, since there would be plenty of adult women showing nekkidness in there.

    But that apparently was never an issue and everyone was perfectly happy with the status quo until Colleen, so I very much doubt this "custom" is in place - and I haven't really run into that in NA tbh. Yes, nude beaches and such aren't customary, but minor children of the same sex are extremely customary in dressing rooms in pool and fitness facilities, I've never seen a minors-only changeroom in a general-use facility.


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  15. #75
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    Transphobia? What a joke that is, it's like the charge of "homophobia" being tossed around if you don't agree and support their lifestyle.

    Phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.. People aren't afraid of homosexuals or transexuals just because they find them perverted or mentally off. Heterosexuals aren't deviant because they don't support homosexual behaviour or see transexuals as a good thing to expose their children to.
    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #76
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    I don't understand this "transphobiea" thing. The bottom line is, while mentally she may be a woman, until she has the surgery, physically he's a man. As such, he has no business running around buck naked in a female locker room, especially when minors are present. It's no big deal to cover up the appropriate areas. I agree with the poster that said this person must have an axe to grind or is just trying to go for shock value.

    As the parent of a teen daughter, I'd be raising all kinds of hell with the school if there was an adult (physical) male running around nude in her locker room. I don't care what gender this person identifies with.


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakehner View Post
    Transphobia? What a joke that is, it's like the charge of "homophobia" being tossed around if you don't agree and support their lifestyle.

    Phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.. People aren't afraid of homosexuals or transexuals just because they find them perverted or mentally off. Heterosexuals aren't deviant because they don't support homosexual behaviour or see transexuals as a good thing to expose their children to.
    Not quite. The suffix -phobia is used in many situations outside of psych (in chemistry, biology, medicine outside of psych to describe specific aversions that are not fear/mentally based) - or would you say that organic chemists are trying to tell us that molecules suffer from anxiety? And those aren't even modern usage, they're long-established.

    And no, people who don't "support homosexual behavior" aren't deviant. They're just prejudiced.


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  18. #78
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    I've never been to a womans' locker room where women run around with everything hanging out. People get dressed and undressed quickly. And people keep their eyes to themselves, even without transgendered body parts. I'm thinking you and the other people are making a big deal of nothing.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGreen View Post
    I've never been to a womans' locker room where women run around with everything hanging out. People get dressed and undressed quickly. And people keep their eyes to themselves, even without transgendered body parts. I'm thinking you and the other people are making a big deal of nothing.

    I am not appalled by this situation in this thread, but just to respond to you- at my gym, there are a few women who TOTALLY hang out naked, and that actually creeps me out. As in, they hang around stark naked for 20 minutes, put a leg up on a bench and stand there all Washington-crossing-the-Delaware style showing off their goods for minutes on end while they try to engage people in conversation. Or squat or bend over naked, literally shoving their butts into people's faces, do naked lunges in the locker room, etc. THAT kind of naked is totally unnecessary and makes me way more uncomfortable than occasional errant penii from transgendered people ever could.


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  20. #80
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    Just wait until an enterprising rapist dresses like a woman to gain access to areas where there are young girls. How about a make believe woman pedophile? Good Lord, people. B O U N D A R I E S. THe word came into existence for a reason.
    “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
    ? Albert Einstein


    5 members found this post helpful.

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