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  1. #341
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    Go FISH. Well said.

    When these pro-lifers step up and care for the unwanted and the betrodden then we'll talk.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  2. #342
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    Default A fertilized egg is a fertilized egg....

    I would still like a pro-lifer to explain their belief regarding artificial fertilization, and the resulting unused fertilized egg vs. abortion.

    Are these two different? Or should both be outlawed as they result in murder?

    Bueller? Anyone?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    Yes - stem cells (can’t use the divided eggs to save lives or further science) - but what about fertilization treatments? Shouldn't we force any couple that goes through fertility therapy that results in unused divided (fertilized) eggs to carry ALL of them to term? Otherwise they are murdering many babies, its like having 10 abortions at once!

    Shouldn’t they all be forced to carry them all like Octomom?

    Or is it ok to murder babies if it is in the process of trying to become pregnant artificially, but its not ok if it is being used to save the lives of those already living.
    Agreed.

    And let's not forget about MFPR (multi fetal preganancy reduction)? When using IVF to become pregnant multiple fetuses often are the result. To reduce the risk to the mother and the other fetuses often one or more of them are aborted.

    So you may for instance have six reduced to one or two. What's the "church" stand on that? Do you risk all of them or do you give the best chance of healthy survival to the mother and one or two children? Or do you outlaw the practice of IVF altogether? After all, if you need IVF isn't god telling you that you shouldn't be getting pregnant? Why is it OK to interfere in getting pregnant but not OK to interfere by ending one?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #344
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    May. 30, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freebird! View Post
    Romney was pro-choice until he started looking into stem cell research, which is when he switched to pro-life.
    No, he switched when he found out he wouldn't be supported by the Republican party if he continued with his radical liberal/commie ways. He was actually a very progressive gov in MA, implementing a health care for all program, tightening environmental laws, pro-choice, etc.. I've never seen anyone do such an about face. Never. How can anyone possible trust a man like this? He'll say or do anything to get elected.

    I used to be one of those middle of the roaders, voting for whomever I thought was the best candidate for office. Not anymore. The religious right and the new Republican party scare me to death and for the first time in my life I'm voting straight democrat next week. Any woman voting republican today had better find out where the nearest Burqa's-R-Us store is.


    14 members found this post helpful.

  5. #345
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    Feb. 22, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natalie View Post
    Just saw this article:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamara...p_ref=religion

    What this woman had to deal with thanks to "pro-life" (really, "pro-conception") crazies who want to legislate what a woman can do with her own body is truly abominable. It will never be a simple, black and white issue, and therefore abortion must remain LEGAL and SAFE.
    I wasn't going to chime in. But this article kind of hit home for me. I had to make a similar decision.

    My first appointment (early, since I am high risk due to complications from a previous miscarriage) showed identical twins, but Twin B was much less formed than Twin A. My second appointment 2 weeks later showed Twin A no longer had a heartbeat and Twin B was not progressing anywhere close to normal. My doctor was LEGALLY bound to tell me he could hear a slight heartbeat in Twin B, even though Twin A was gone.

    I asked what my options were. I was told we could wait and do another check up in a week, but medically speaking because they were identical, and while miracles do happen, it's not likely the fetus would continue to progress.

    I looked at my husband, who nodded and I looked down at the floor as I told my doctor to do "the procedure." That was almost 2 years ago now and I am still crying as I type. That was the hardest decision I ever had to make. But I do not, for one second regret my decision or what might have been.

    And if some people have their way, the ability to make the decision that was in the best interest of my fetus, myself, my DH and our grieving family could be taken away and I cannot sit idly by and watch that happen. So stay the eff out of my reproductive system, unless of course you can draft up "feel good laws" to make it functional, because sometimes, the decision is not really a "choice."

    Rape, Incest, Health or Voluntary, it's really all the same to me. It may not be a choice I would voluntarily make because I would really like to have a child, but don't EVER tell me I can't make that choice.
    Last edited by drmgncolor; Nov. 3, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
    Dreaming in Color


    11 members found this post helpful.

  6. #346
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Missouri
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    I am the OP, for Candyapple and the other posters who are pro life what would you legislate in this situation and why.

    A woman is raped and becomes pregnant, she does not want to give birth. Would you force this woman by law to carry the child to term? Why? What would you do with the baby after it was born?
    Are you really under the impression that abortion won't be an option for you in the future? There is too much money in it for too many people for it to go away.
    I have no idea what it would be like for a woman who was a victim of rape. Many women have gone on to have the child and even keep them and love them or give them up for adoption.

    You see me as judgmental because I don't agree with the way you choose to live your life, right? Then I guess deep down inside of you somewhere it struck a nerve.

    Just because our government made it legal to get abortions doesn't make it right.



  7. #347
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    CandyAppy- We understand that your God does not approve of abortion, and that you know this to be True in your heart. Please tell us,

    Is it Murder to have an abortion?

    Is it Murder to dispose of fertilized eggs?

    Are these two different? Is there any logical, or even biblical explanation as to why these would be treated differently?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #348
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    Jun. 19, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Are you really under the impression that abortion won't be an option for you in the future? There is too much money in it for too many people for it to go away.
    I have no idea what it would be like for a woman who was a victim of rape. Many women have gone on to have the child and even keep them and love them or give them up for adoption.

    You see me as judgmental because I don't agree with the way you choose to live your life, right? Then I guess deep down inside of you somewhere it struck a nerve.

    Just because our government made it legal to get abortions doesn't make it right.
    Really? I hear this all the time but have no idea how it could possibly be true. Health insurance won't pay for it the majority of the time, and an abortion really isn't particularly expensive, not compared to say, full on surgeries. There isn't really any monetary reward for physicians to perform them.

    And then you have to deal with the constant protestors, threats on violence, attempts on your life and all that stuff...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #349
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Are you really under the impression that abortion won't be an option for you in the future?
    Both Romney & Ryan are distinctly anti-abortion.

    "The presumptive GOP presidential nominee currently opposes abortion with an exception for cases of rape, incest and risk to the mother's life. His running mate has stated that abortion should only be legal when a mother's life is at risk.

    "And even then, Ryan supported a bill that allowed anti-abortion hospitals to refuse emergency abortions."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1821284.html


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #350
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    "Love your neighbor" doesn't have anything to do with being a judgmental grumpy pants (censored version).
    If you are going to quote the bible then do it in context of how it was written.

    Matthew 22: 37-39

    " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

    I don't happen to agree that our governments decision to legalize abortion was a good one. I don't see how so many women can, without conscience, abort their children from their bodies and encourage others to do so.

    So, for the majority of women on this board their way of thinking is-- It is a baby if she wants it and a fetus if it is inconvenient for her at this moment in her life .

    As christians we are not to judge our fellow believers because we have struggles with doing wrong also. In looking only at their sins we can ignore our own sins and shortcomings, which we are not to do.

    Coming here in defense of an unborn child's right to live is not being judgmental. Your comments to me and about me just show me that somewhere it hit a nerve.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #351
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natalie View Post
    Really? I hear this all the time but have no idea how it could possibly be true. Health insurance won't pay for it the majority of the time, and an abortion really isn't particularly expensive, not compared to say, full on surgeries. There isn't really any monetary reward for physicians to perform them.

    And then you have to deal with the constant protestors, threats on violence, attempts on your life and all that stuff...


    If they weren't making money the abortion clinics wouldn't be open would they? You really think the doctors and nurses are doing it as a community service to all these poor, unfortunate women? Get a grip. At 5+ million babies aborted since it was legalized someone is making money.

    FWIW--Protestors don't have the right to threaten or hurt anyone. There are many there who just try to give an alternative solution to abortion. Of course you never hear about that.



  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    I don't see how so many women can, without conscience, abort their children from their bodies and encourage others to do so.
    Bull**** comment implying callousness and thoughtlessness of women.

    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    So, for the majority of women on this board their way of thinking is-- It is a baby if she wants it and a fetus if it is inconvenient for her at this moment in her life.
    Bigger bull**** comment again implying abortion is simply a matter of a minor inconvenience.


    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    As christians we are not to judge our fellow believers because we have struggles with doing wrong also. In looking only at their sins we can ignore our own sins and shortcomings, which we are not to do.
    That must be the trick then. You are not to judge your fellow believers but have at it towards those who believe differently. Your comments are incredibly judgmental. You & people like you are like an emotional abusive SO or spouse: saying these snide derogatory comments as though they were facts, when they're not facts at all.

    Finally, the laws of our country are NOT to be based on an established religion, no matter what religion. It's the first amendment for gosh sake. The first one!

    You sound like a friend of mine who said the other day, "you presume our laws are not to be based upon Christianity." There's no presumption about it. It's the law of this country. Heck, it's the entire REASON for this country.

    ETA: I have sometimes used adjectives like "incredibly" or "unbelievably" when talking about these American Taliban on this board. Sadly, there is nothing "incredible" or "unbelievable" about these archaic suppressive views. They are de rigueur for the once-great Republican party. Uh-oh, I used a French phrase. Infidel!


    10 members found this post helpful.

  13. #353
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    Jun. 19, 2001
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    Washington, D.C.
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    If they weren't making money the abortion clinics wouldn't be open would they? You really think the doctors and nurses are doing it as a community service to all these poor, unfortunate women? Get a grip. At 5+ million babies aborted since it was legalized someone is making money.

    FWIW--Protestors don't have the right to threaten or hurt anyone. There are many there who just try to give an alternative solution to abortion. Of course you never hear about that.
    I do actually think that many, MANY of the doctors and nurses who work in abortion clinics do so to provide a much needed service. I also don't see why that's so hard to believe...lots of people choose jobs that don't offer great pay but help those in need, i.e. social workers, etc.

    And I agree that protestors don't have a right to threaten or hurt anyone, and I by no means believe that they're all there to do that. However, you do realize that family planning clinics don't just offer abortions as the only option? Women and girls coming in for one are offered a whole raft of choices, with literature and a counselor to talk to, which would obviously include adoption. Abortion just happens to be one of the choices they're offered, and if that is what they choose, they are treated with respect, not condescended to or made to feel as though they're sinful or wrong.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #354
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    Candy Appy – you still have not addressed my question.

    To me, saying abortion is murder, but using IVF is ok is a blatant hypocrisy.

    Most “abortion clinics” (in quotes, because most do MUCH MORE than just abortion, like supplying contraceptives so people can avoid abortion), are not big profit centers. Most are non profit, and operate on grants etc.

    Do you really think these places are getting rich off of $250 procedures? Ones that they often base the fee on a sliding scale dependant on your income?

    But – there is no logic to your stance, just that “God told you” and that’s that. Just as logical as the arguments you have presented for taking away women’s basic rights to control their bodies.

    Please tell me, are woman who do not use all of their fertilized eggs in the process of IVF Murders just like women who have abortions?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    If they weren't making money the abortion clinics wouldn't be open would they? You really think the doctors and nurses are doing it as a community service to all these poor, unfortunate women?
    Are there actually "abortion clinics" operating anywhere? I'm serious. I've never seen nor heard of one. Such an odd term. Sounds like you ought to be able to order a shake and fries on your way out.

    Actually, I'm not even sure how to find someone who performs abortions. I've used Planned Parenthood for things like mammograms, PAP smears, and birth control for about 20 years now, and haven't so much as seen the word 'abortion' on a piece of literature let alone heard anyone say it. Some of their locations might offer the service, but it certainly seems to be a small sideline, if anything.

    Consider for a moment that my out-of-pocket cost for an annual pelvic exam, etc. was over $300, more than the cost someone quoted here for an abortion. And given that most of us have annual health exams and cancer screenings for decades and few or no abortions in our lives... I'm following the money, and still not seeing where legal abortion is particularly profitable.
    Last edited by WildBlue; Nov. 2, 2012 at 04:31 PM. Reason: dollar amount


    7 members found this post helpful.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    Yup, did you read the organ donation page?
    Curious as how they can reconcile their position that Organ Donation Is A Grievous Sin For Which One Must Be Smited Repeatedly with the idea that God is just thrilly-o'd with keeping people alive though tubes/respirators/other artificial means. How does one constitute playing God while the other is in keeping with His Divine Will???

    I wonder how they feel about zombies? Does killing a zombie count as murder? After all, wasn't Lazarus the original undead, even before Jesus? (There's a Zombie Jesus meme somewhere around that's pretty close to the zenith of heretical hilarity).


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #357
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    I only know of women's health places that perform abortions in addition to regular women's health and reproductive stuff.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!



  18. #358
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    Here's something else to consider--for all those (including politicians) who say abortions should only be available for those whose lives are in danger or in the case of rape or murder, exactly WHO would decide that? Would women have to go before a panel of men and try to prove she was raped? What if she's a victim of incest and still living with the person who molested her? We all know how fast and efficient government is--if there was some kind of trial/debate period where the panel deliberated whether the woman was actually raped or not, it would take so long that the child in question would be graduated from high school by the time they reached a decision.

    And is that really want our society? A woman who has already been savagely attacked having to probe her case in order to remove something that was inflicted upon her? Rape is all about control and power--should we really once again take away that woman's control and power and force her to physically/emotionally deal with something that she did not? That's like raping her again, for at least another 9 months.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  19. #359
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    My apologies for all the typos in the above post. I'm on my phone. ;-)


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  20. #360
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    Romney's Storm Tips. Don't miss # 5.

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Rom...21101-228.html


    3 members found this post helpful.

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