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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    On the other hand, many business are not doing anything but the minimum in expanding or hiring because they don't know what will work or not in the coming economic environment.
    And those are the SMALL businesses. And I totally get that.
    Those should be the ones to be considered when talking about "growth".

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    You can't skew facts or truisms. That is why they are considered facts and truth. Now I'm completely puzzled.
    SR1: Facts and "truisms" are like posts in concrete. As long as one stands in one place their appearance or interpetation doesn't seem to change. It takes several points of view to get the whole relationship of the fact and ground. It's the meaning of facts or solution that is in dispute.



  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    I'm with lauriep. Hillary's "right-wing conspiracy" comment was a wife defending her husband and was made prior to a lot of evidence coming to light. That's utterly different than Palin & Bachman's comments. Palin and Bachman set women back. They are not highly intelligent people. Clinton, love her or hate her, is intelligent. Palin and Bachman compared to the brainpower of Condoleeza Rice or Geraldine Ferraro? They're light-years away from those women.

    In order for women to succeed and be treated as equals we must maintain honesty. Condoleeza Rice is a brilliant woman whether we agree with her or not. Palin and Bachman are frankly stupid, or let's say not very intelligent if that's kinder, compared to Ms. Rice. There are millions of intelligent, well-educated women in our country both Republican and Democrat, who need to be in high office. Palin and Bachman set women back. It's my opinion that Republicans, being the party of old white men who want to control behind the scenes, deliberately chose Palin because of her looks (not hot to young men but hot to old guys) and her lack of intelligence. Condi Rice would never have let anyone run her office.

    So absolutely not that "Repubs are stupid in your world." If they're stupid, call them stupid. If they're bright, call them bright.
    BS - Ferraro was chosen simply because of sex and appearance. She was all but thrown under bus after information about her family came out. Questions were made about some of her husband's business partners and dealings plus IIRC a son was picked up for pot or underage drinking. She didn't have the perfect political family.
    Rice - look at the political cartoons where she was depicted as a bird. Her actions have been down played or discounted.
    Palin - has a college education,was a mayor and the governor of Alaska. The entrenched politicians, of both parties, have thrown her under the bus. After she is from the boonies, she did not attend the "right" college/university. She dared to call it as she saw it. She struck fear in the hearts of both parties. Did she make mistakes, heck yeah. The only way to avoid mistakes is to do nothing or wait until there is only one choice remaining. Don't forget she had an 80+% positive rating by the citizens of Alaska. Yes she resigned, due to the number of lawsuits against her. She could not properly tend to her duties, not to mention the legal fees. The majority of the lawsuits were thrown out or overturned. Look it up.
    Bachman-again not approved college/university, married, Christian, woman with multiple children. Who ran the family business with her husband and fostered many children. Yup a heartless, brainless, dummy.
    At least in your world.


    And you really believe a brilliant woman such as Hillary Clinton did not know that Bill was up to something? Especially with the history of women accusing him? Especially as they lived in the same house, not like she was driving to work everyday.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    They can't handle it. And the GOP is so confident of that, that Romney says things in the last debate like "more than half" of the companies Obama gave Dept. of Energy grants to failed. More than half!

    The fact checkers checked the FACTS and found that 5 out of 63 failed. IOW, the figure is 8%, not well over 50% as Romney stated publicly and now his fans requote everywhere. The DOE grants had a 92% success rate. Facts? The GOP has become more and more blatant of absolutely making up "facts." Again, Romney LIED. He simply lied.
    AND, compare this to the Small Business Admin loans. I think most ppl on both sides of the aisle would say that this SBA loan program is pretty valuable in nurturing growth and hiring for these small companies and entrepreneurs. But 12% of all SBA loans are written off. Does that mean small biz is a bad bet? No--it's an investment that carries some risk and we agree as a society that the benefit outweighs the risk.



  5. #485
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    To set the record straight, China is not buying up our national debt. In fact, in the last year, China's investment in the US has decreased by 10%.

    All foreign holders of our debt combined = less and 1/3rd of the total debt (the national debt which has been quoted plus the private securities which the Government is obligated to pay out (So called "Entitlements" like SS.) This latter amount is not included in the national debt for accounting purposes.

    Thus the total obligations owed by the US is around 16 trillion. Foreign debt = only 29%

    Who holds the rest of the debt? We do. Everytime someone buys a US Treasury Security, they (we) are loaning the Government money. Of course, the Government pays interest on this loan. Where does this interest go? Right back into our pockets.

    So, for 70% of the national debt, the money comes back into the economy.

    NOT SAYING that increasing the debt benefits the economy -- But I am trying to point out that China is not buying up the US debt. If anything WE are buying our own debt. And spending the money that is paid to us as interest.


    Leading Foreign Holders of U.S. Treasury Securities as of August 2012
    Economic Area billions of dollars (est.) ratio of owned U.S. debt to GDP (est.).[126] percent change since August 2011
    Mainland China 1,153.6 15.8% (9.8%)
    Japan 1,121.5 19.1% +23.6%
    Oil exporters1 263.0 n/a +7.0%
    Caribbean Banking Centers2 256.9 n/a +22.1%
    Brazil 253.9 10.2% +15.8%
    Switzerland 202.2 31.8% +28.3%
    Taiwan 198.0 42.4% +38.0%
    United Kingdom 153.6 6.4% (15.2%)
    Russia 153.3 8.3% +11.0%
    Belgium 142.6 27.8% +63.7%
    Hong Kong SAR 139.6 57.4% +36.9%
    Luxembourg 131.4 225.0% +14.6%
    all others 1,260.3 n/a +28.8%
    Grand Total 5,430.0 +14.0%
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #486
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    C'mon, fooler. Everyone in a political cartoon is ridiculed. That's what they're for. And the "right" school? Yeah, Palin went to what, 5? But Rice went to the U of Denver - I'm sure it's a fine school but it's not a "name" school. Palin turned out to be a joke, a huge joke. C'mon, anyone who insists that "what do you like to read?" is a Gotcha question is not bright. And she made it to office in Alaska...yet she didn't make it, did she? She couldn't handle it and she actually quit. Rice turned out to be a brilliant scholar. There is zero comparison between the two when it comes to brains.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #487
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    That is really interesting, Lord Helpus. Thanks for the stats.
    I don't have much background at all in this stuff-- do you know what are the main drivers of t-bill interest rates (up or down)? Reason I ask is that in recent months, we're seeing investment shops coming to us (in the supposedly incredibly risky renewable energy biz ) wanting to invest in wind/solar projects. They see these projects as a better 20-yr bet than t-bills (which have too low return rates). I guess this is good, right? Wouldn't we rather folks invest in business which grows economy, rather than buying up govt debt.
    Or are the low rates a symptom of fiscal trouble?
    Last edited by HungarianHippo; Oct. 31, 2012 at 08:26 PM. Reason: clarify



  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    C'mon, fooler. Everyone in a political cartoon is ridiculed. That's what they're for. And the "right" school? Yeah, Palin went to what, 5? But Rice went to the U of Denver - I'm sure it's a fine school but it's not a "name" school. Palin turned out to be a joke, a huge joke. C'mon, anyone who insists that "what do you like to read?" is a Gotcha question is not bright. And she made it to office in Alaska...yet she didn't make it, did she? She couldn't handle it and she actually quit. Rice turned out to be a brilliant scholar. There is zero comparison between the two when it comes to brains.
    Agreed political cartoons go after everyone and Rice was treated rather poorly. I have several family members who graduated, with honors, from Colorado Universities. I also KNOW folks who graduated,with honors, from Ivy League schools. Biggest difference between the two groups is the Colorado folks have a broader view of the world. The Ivy League folks have a narrow view and are rather naive of things outside of the Ivy League campuses.
    Yes Palin attended five different schools before graduating. Not too shoddy considering the problems with transferring college credits.
    We will have to agree to disagree.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    No, Palin and Bachman brought that on themselves with the utter ridiculousness of some of their statements. No one did that but them. I hate to see women ostracized or treated unfairly, but that was NOT the case with these two. Bush was not articulate when giving speeches, and unfortunately people decided that he was unintelligent because of this. Not true, but when a comedian gets ahold of ANYONE in the name of entertainment, what are you going to do? The smart thing to do is laugh WITH them.
    And making a comment about us having 57 states is ok??? Sign of someone competent???


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    And making a comment about us having 57 states is ok??? Sign of someone competent???
    Or obama's memorial day speech when referring to fallen soldiers, in which he proclaimed to see many sitting in the audience...

    Then referred pronounced corpsman as Corpse Man (as in a dead person)
    He's as only good as his TelePrompter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlKIfzoC8D0
    This is a pretty funny video...lol

    Biden? Too many to list. THREE letter word - JOBS


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    The babbling does not stop about "we hate Obama". How about explaining how the 5 point Romney/Ryan plan will fix this economy ? I've only posted it twice.......hating the current President is so much easier than actually debating policies.
    I'm still waiting for the answer to this too. Funny, but none of my FB friends that are planning to vote for Romney/Ryan seem to be able to answer this either. Nor do they seem to be willing to discuss his dismal record as the Governmor of Massachusetts.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #492
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    I have been reading about the national debt (my eyes have now officially crossed) and I thought I would share the consensed version:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

    LOOONG story short: The debt doubled under Dubya due to his tax cuts and costly wars (don't forget the "weapons of mass destruction").

    The debt continued to increase under Obama due to the Bush tax cuts (extended by Obama) and the costly wars (being phased out by Obama).

    But approx 27% of the increase in the debt was due to decreased revenues, attributable to the downturn in the economy. (which began under Bush).

    Budget Control Act of 2011:

    The Budget Control Act of 2011 (Pub.L. 112-25, S. 365) is a federal statute in the United States that was signed into law by President Barack Obama on August 2, 2011. The Act brought conclusion to the 2011 United States debt-ceiling crisis, which had threatened to lead the United States into sovereign default on or about August 3, 2011.
    The law involves the introduction of several complex mechanisms, such as creation of the Congressional Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction (sometimes called the "super committee")[1], options for a balanced budget amendment and automatic budget sequestration."

    Bottom line (from what I can tell) is that there is now a complex law in place which will curb the increase in the deficit and head us toward a balanced budget. --- This was initiated under Obama, but, if Romney is elected, he will take full credit for it.

    MY conclusions: (yours may vary)

    Obama inherited a mess (economy/wars). While not reining in the budget (granted) the deficit was already on an upward spiral while Bush was President. This sprial was created and caused by the Republicans. It is NOTNOTNOT attributable to Obama, except to the extent that he did not take steps to lessen it.

    Which leads me to believe that Republicans are not any better (maybe worse) than Dems when it comes to controlled spending. Despite his big talk, Romney has no detailed plans to decrease it (beyond the broad strokes that he has been touting as his "plan".)

    There is NO good reason to think that the deficit will be reduced under Romney, except for the results of the Budget Control Act of 2011, which he cannot take credit for.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #493
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    Right on!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wcporter View Post
    I'm sorry, but how can you honestly believe the mess created was OBAMA's fault?

    Has he done a great job of cleaning it up? No.

    Could someone else have done better? Who knows.

    But to blatantly ignore the disaster the Bush administration caused just seems very ignorant and/or biased to me.

    Here's a basic scenario and question:
    You have two kids. One takes out all the toys and dumps them on the floor and makes a huge mess. The other child tries to clean up before you find out by putting everything back, but instead he/she just ends up making the room look completely disorganized. Who's to blame?


    For the record I am not a liberal or a republican, I fall very much in the middle.

    And if I hear "...except in the case of rape, incest, or the life of the mother is in danger" one more time I'm going to stab myself in the eye with a pencil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    I'm with lauriep. Hillary's "right-wing conspiracy" comment was a wife defending her husband and was made prior to a lot of evidence coming to light. That's utterly different than Palin & Bachman's comments. Palin and Bachman set women back. They are not highly intelligent people. Clinton, love her or hate her, is intelligent. Palin and Bachman compared to the brainpower of Condoleeza Rice or Geraldine Ferraro? They're light-years away from those women.

    In order for women to succeed and be treated as equals we must maintain honesty. Condoleeza Rice is a brilliant woman whether we agree with her or not. Palin and Bachman are frankly stupid, or let's say not very intelligent if that's kinder, compared to Ms. Rice. There are millions of intelligent, well-educated women in our country both Republican and Democrat, who need to be in high office. Palin and Bachman set women back. It's my opinion that Republicans, being the party of old white men who want to control behind the scenes, deliberately chose Palin because of her looks (not hot to young men but hot to old guys) and her lack of intelligence. Condi Rice would never have let anyone run her office.

    So absolutely not that "Repubs are stupid in your world." If they're stupid, call them stupid. If they're bright, call them bright.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    Because it doesn't exist. There is no Benghazi cover-up. Romney actually had to be called out by both the President and the moderator in the debate because he flat out lied about what Obama said and when he said it.
    Ah, but it does exist. Unfortunately, the moderator backtracked on the "after debate" shows. She said, that Romney was correct. It DID take the President over 2 weeks to finally stop saying the attack was due to the video and was, in fact, a terrorist attack. There was no mob protest.


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  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    Who the heck is Mark BigDog Johnston and why would you think he is any kind of authority on anything? I Googled him and he seems to be some random ranter on Facebook and various websites with commenting features.
    Instead of googling Mark BigDog Johnston, why don't you try googling the facts he laid out?



  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    What you find "questions about Obama" is hate spam. There are no questions in a Minnie's posts just ranting.
    I have honest views concerning President Obama's competence (or lack of) as a President. I question his methods, his motives and his integrity. I think he's run a disgustingly dirty small minded campaign. I don't think he's put forth any new ideas as to how he'll change what he's doing to be more effective. He made a lot of promises he couldn't keep during his first term. He's saying the same things now. He said if he didn't succeed in halving the deficit and cutting unemployment to 5.4% in the first 3 years that he'd be a one term President. His entire campaign has been to attack Romney.

    He's been derisive, arrogant and occasionally quite juvenile. I think he'd prefer to be a stand-up comic to being president.

    Because I have an opposing view to yours, how does that merit being a rant?
    Am I to be belittled and demeaned because I'm not in the Obama camp? Does the fact I have opposing views mean it's hate?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #497
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    Hm, minnie, I'm wondering how you can think that way and I can think the exact opposite.

    I think Romney may be an OK guy in his own world, but I think he has run a stunningly nasty, lie filled campaign focused at the racist, small minded bigots. His integrity is, without doubt, low. The man won't even release his tax returns, he has massive amounts of money off shore, made a fortune off of the auto bailout and condemned it, and is perfectly OK with paying less taxes than most of the country.

    He hasn't put a SINGLE idea forward to be helpful. His five step plan is such a lie. Obama has many plans, some OK and some not, and they are working when they have been put in force. If the R party's ONE agenda was not to make the whole country fail so they could make Obama look bad and did their damn job, things would probably be better. Too bad the R's put up 95 anti abortion laws, anti women laws and endless ridiculous proposals in the last four years, but not ONE jobs bill. Obama has put up countless bills to create jobs, stop subsidies to oil companies, give rights to women, etc., but they are all voted down by R.

    Romney has done nothing but attack Obama, mostly with proven lies. Romney doesn't have ONE workable plan. Show it to me if you can find it.

    Romney creeps me out. He's rude, derisive, dismissive, and arrogant. And he lies, a LOT, and is OK with it.

    I've had my 8th graders watch all of the debates. They really get into it. It's amazing how perceptive they are about things that many adults don't seem to get. They sure noticed Romney did nothing but call Obama names and said how he did it all wrong, but didn't have any specifics about what HE would have done. They also noticed in the last debate even more that Romney completely changed his mind on what he said before, and denied that he had ever said it.


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  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    Hm, minnie, I'm wondering how you can think that way and I can think the exact opposite.

    I think Obama may be an OK guy in his own world, but I think he has run a stunningly nasty, lie filled campaign focused at the racist, small minded bigots. His integrity is, without doubt, low. The man won't even release his transcripts, he has massive amounts of money off shore(China), made a fortune off of the auto bailout and condemned it, and is perfectly OK with paying less taxes than most of the country.

    He hasn't put a SINGLE idea forward to be helpful. His plan is such a lie. Obama has many plans, some OK and some not, and they are working when they have been put in force. If the D party's ONE agenda was not to make the whole country fail so they could make Republican's look bad and did their damn job, things would probably be better.
    Obama has done nothing but attack Romney, mostly with proven lies. Obama doesn't have ONE workable plan. Show it to me if you can find it.

    Obama creeps me out. He's rude, derisive, dismissive, and arrogant. And he lies, a LOT, and is OK with it.
    MUCH better...
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #499
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    btdt, you're right, we are "looking at different parts of the elephant". I wasn't overly thrilled with Romney in the beginning, but the more I learn about him, the more I've come to admire him. I've not liked everything about his campaign, but for the most part have found it far more palatable than that of his opponet.

    His financial plans are pretty sound and have been proven before. The Republican congress has passed several jobs bill, all nicely hidden away in Harry Reid's drawer.

    We have opposing views on abortion. I really didn't think much about abortion one way or the other in my younger days, but I definitely evolved into pro-life. It is a very difficult subject. I'm not a bible thumping religious nut, but I truly believe in the miracle of life and that God has a plan for each life. I will not impose my will upon anyone else, that is my personal choice, but neither do I believe that my taxpayer dollars should pay for a single abortion.

    Romney is anything but rude. He is, however, reserved and private and I think it's very difficult for him to blow his own horn. He really doesn't pay less taxes than most of the country. Remember, his tax rate is reduced because he contributes roughly 25-30% of his income to charity, reducing his rate as does anyone else in the country. That's several million to charity each year. He's also given a lot of his TIME to charitable causes, which says even more about him. It's really easy for someone who's rich to write a check. The person who truly believes in helping others donates his time. Which he has done over and over.

    I guess I'm pretty old school, too. I came from poor, really poor and lived most of my life poor. Everything I have, my husband and I worked hard to obtain. We asked no one for help and didn't apply for any government handouts, although we more than qualified.

    My husband served his country his entire adult life. We're both fiercely patriotic. I can't sing the star spangled banner because by the time I get to "and the rocket's red glare" I'm already choked up with tears in my eyes. I could go on and on forever on a lot of different aspects, but I guess you and I will never be able to look at anything the same. I DO read both sides and after a couple glasses of wine have actually turned on msnbc (choke!) on occasion. For the debates, I watched on fox and taped msnbc and watched their coverage too. Might as well be 2 different planets.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnie View Post
    btdt, you're right, we are "looking at different parts of the elephant". I wasn't overly thrilled with Romney in the beginning, but the more I learn about him, the more I've come to admire him. I've not liked everything about his campaign, but for the most part have found it far more palatable than that of his opponet.

    His financial plans are pretty sound and have been proven before. The Republican congress has passed several jobs bill, all nicely hidden away in Harry Reid's drawer.

    We have opposing views on abortion. I really didn't think much about abortion one way or the other in my younger days, but I definitely evolved into pro-life. It is a very difficult subject. I'm not a bible thumping religious nut, but I truly believe in the miracle of life and that God has a plan for each life. I will not impose my will upon anyone else, that is my personal choice, but neither do I believe that my taxpayer dollars should pay for a single abortion.

    Romney is anything but rude. He is, however, reserved and private and I think it's very difficult for him to blow his own horn. He really doesn't pay less taxes than most of the country. Remember, his tax rate is reduced because he contributes roughly 25-30% of his income to charity, reducing his rate as does anyone else in the country. That's several million to charity each year. He's also given a lot of his TIME to charitable causes, which says even more about him. It's really easy for someone who's rich to write a check. The person who truly believes in helping others donates his time. Which he has done over and over.

    I guess I'm pretty old school, too. I came from poor, really poor and lived most of my life poor. Everything I have, my husband and I worked hard to obtain. We asked no one for help and didn't apply for any government handouts, although we more than qualified.

    My husband served his country his entire adult life. We're both fiercely patriotic. I can't sing the star spangled banner because by the time I get to "and the rocket's red glare" I'm already choked up with tears in my eyes. I could go on and on forever on a lot of different aspects, but I guess you and I will never be able to look at anything the same. I DO read both sides and after a couple glasses of wine have actually turned on msnbc (choke!) on occasion. For the debates, I watched on fox and taped msnbc and watched their coverage too. Might as well be 2 different planets.
    You rock. Thanks!
    "How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?" Julian Lennon


    1 members found this post helpful.

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