[Polydor]

BUT----and this shocked me--class 3 films. Aparently 1 of 3 in the licensing. This one did go for good money and above my budget.

Slightly off topic, but what do you mean by Class 3 films? I'm guessing bad x-rays?

P.

[DownYonder]

How were the front legs on the Quando-Quando? It is a bit hard to gauge correctness form the videos they posted (no away and back shots).

[fannie mae]

the eurdoressage article is very well spotted and seems to come from some wellknown and very appreciated writers (follow the link on that page).

[rodawn]

Indeed one of the things that really frustrate me with the presentations of the stallions is that none of them were videoed moving to and away from the camera which is not a fair angle to assess the horses conformationally. The viewer should have the right to see the horse as he is - on all 4 sides, especially in movement. This seems to be a growing trend that marketers/sellers are reluctant to show the horses in question coming towards the camera so the viewer can assess the correctness of the gaits. It also puts breeders in other countries at a definite disadvantage because there are still a few of us who are looking for correctness in what we breed and it's really difficult to assess that with the odd angles videos are filmed at. It leaves us all sort of guessing or relying on the comments of others who may or may not have something to gain by telling or not telling the information.

It is one of the main things I truly appreciate with the KWPN who publicly post all comments on the stallion's conformation, including the angle of their hocks, pasterns, cleanness of the legs, loin connection, the neck, etc., etc. This is really something the Hanoverian Verband needs to strongly consider doing!

[Dan]

Thanks for more of the first hand reports. I agree it is good to hear the good and the not so good.

Dan

[DownYonder]

How were the front legs on the Quando-Quando? It is a bit hard to gauge correctness form the videos they posted (no away and back shots).

So no one that was there can answer this? The Eurodressage article referred to "Especially rotations in the pastern joints were obvious and are food for thought" but not in reference to any specific stallion. In the discussion of the Quando-Quando / Donnerhall colt, the writer just talked about him being sickle-hocked - didn't mention his front legs. Since his sire is so very incorrect in the front legs, one can't help but wonder how the QQ's front legs look.

[Marydell]

Unless you are thinking of bidding or of future breedings, there is no reason to ask to see the horse walk for you. There are already many people doing that.
Though the horse is presented tot he jury going to and from, there is no real vantage point for the general public

[alexandra]

[...] The viewer should have the right to see the horse as he is - on all 4 sides, especially in movement. This seems to be a growing trend that marketers/sellers are reluctant to show the horses in question coming towards the camera so the viewer can assess the correctness of the gaits.

It also puts breeders in other countries at a definite disadvantage because there are still a few of us who are looking for correctness in what we breed and it's really difficult to assess that with the odd angles videos are filmed at. It leaves us all sort of guessing or relying on the comments of others who may or may not have something to gain by telling or not telling the information.

It is one of the main things I truly appreciate with the KWPN who publicly post all comments on the stallion's conformation, including the angle of their hocks, pasterns, cleanness of the legs, loin connection, the neck, etc., etc. This is really something the Hanoverian Verband needs to strongly consider doing!

Sorry, this is a stallion licensing and not a presentation ! These are not yet breeding stallions and a high percentage of them will not be. This is a licensing. People who are interested to buy will for sure be there, will have their eyes there and will have a look at the stalliosn separaely in the barn apart form the triangle. The filming is not meant to be done so that oversea breeders can make breeding decisions. It is to get an impression.
As far as breeding decisions go, a breeder should take a look at the stallions in question. If not possible and one is not sure - well than do not use him or see for yourself how to obtain full information. Sorry to sound harsh, but this is a german licensing and to create a perfect video for a few overseas breeders seems to me far out of reach.

But I have to agree on the other hand: I would appreciate that for the licensed and tested stallions a report such as KWPN does would be nice .

[DownYonder]

Unless you are thinking of bidding or of future breedings, there is no reason to ask to see the horse walk for you. There are already many people doing that.
Though the horse is presented tot he jury going to and from, there is no real vantage point for the general public

You're kidding, right? No real vantage point for folks to know how correct a horse is?

But whatever - I am asking again, since some of you were there and saw the horses in person. How are the front legs on the Quando-Quando? Is he reasonably correct, or does he have the same deviation as his sire?

[L&L]

Ouch. They were pretty critical of some of the stallions.

Dan

Yes I thought so too, on one hand the Vivaldi was criticised for being a front end mover and under developed.. mm at that age how much dvelopment should be expected? and in addition that hind leg sure did bend and raise the forehand to produce such powerfull front end movement which is what put Vivaldi on the map in the first place.

Watching the likes of Farrouche develop over the years its not only the strength of her hind engine that is so appealing but the use of her forelg in every gait.

The recent video of Don Juan De Hus in France at Sammur also emphasised this massive power of the forehand. Year after year we see hundreds of stallions talented, beautiful, impressive, but it's only occassionally that something seems to stand out and really bring something extra to the table and surely it's that little bit of extra that is needed or we could happily breed to the stallions selected in previous years with no need to approve any more?

[Kyzteke]

What did the writer(s) mean when they used the word "sympathetic" to describe the Christ colt? Lovely animal...but why should we feel sorry for him?

[Maren]

What did the writer(s) mean when they used the word "sympathetic" to describe the Christ colt? Lovely animal...but why should we feel sorry for him?

Lost in translation :-)

"Likable" will do.

I did like the fact the Vivaldi actually looked like a 2yr old. If less hype (and false hype at that) had been created over him, whatever, he'd be just another approved stallion. The way it went is what got a lot of people thinking and the demo on the line was really not good. On the flip side - I would not even lunge stallions at this age, just as I would require that shoeing business to stop. These are 2yr olds. No shoes, no fuss, no "corrections" and no training from February on in my book. But then I guess I'm old fashioned ;-)

[Home Again Farm]

Maybe old fashioned, but also wise. I agree 100%, Maren.

Lost in translation :-)

"Likable" will do.

I did like the fact the Vivaldi actually looked like a 2yr old. If less hype (and false hype at that) had been created over him, whatever, he'd be just another approved stallion. The way it went is what got a lot of people thinking and the demo on the line was really not good. On the flip side - I would not even lunge stallions at this age, just as I would require that shoeing business to stop. These are 2yr olds. No shoes, no fuss, no "corrections" and no training from February on in my book. But then I guess I'm old fashioned ;-)

[rodawn]

Lost in translation :-)

"Likable" will do.

I did like the fact the Vivaldi actually looked like a 2yr old. If less hype (and false hype at that) had been created over him, whatever, he'd be just another approved stallion. The way it went is what got a lot of people thinking and the demo on the line was really not good. On the flip side - I would not even lunge stallions at this age, just as I would require that shoeing business to stop. These are 2yr olds. No shoes, no fuss, no "corrections" and no training from February on in my book. But then I guess I'm old fashioned ;-)

Very much also agree.

[rodawn]

Sorry, this is a stallion licensing and not a presentation ! These are not yet breeding stallions and a high percentage of them will not be. This is a licensing. People who are interested to buy will for sure be there, will have their eyes there and will have a look at the stalliosn separaely in the barn apart form the triangle. The filming is not meant to be done so that oversea breeders can make breeding decisions. It is to get an impression.
As far as breeding decisions go, a breeder should take a look at the stallions in question. If not possible and one is not sure - well than do not use him or see for yourself how to obtain full information. Sorry to sound harsh, but this is a german licensing and to create a perfect video for a few overseas breeders seems to me far out of reach.

But I have to agree on the other hand: I would appreciate that for the licensed and tested stallions a report such as KWPN does would be nice .

You didn't really understand my post (and I could have been more clear). We know this is a 2-year-old licensing and we all know most of them will be cut.

But when I'm looking at these 2 year olds, I'm looking at what their SIRE and DAMLINE are producing especially since I can't be there in person every single year. Weanies change a LOT from their inspection/branding. This is everyone's chance to see how offspring are developing and determining the consistency of quality from sires, since it is the sires that make the most impact on the breed due to the sheer numbers of mares they can breed each season.

And yes, it is a presentation. It is a presentation to the world about what the Hanoverian studbook is producing. These are supposedly the best of the best colts thus far. The world is looking at these videos which state loud and clear - "here are the best 2-year-olds Hanover has produced". If they weren't marketing, they would not be posting the videos at all and everyone would have to go there in person to see them. But since they are posting them in a public website for the ENTIRE WORLD TO SEE, they are indeed MARKETING these 2 year olds to the world and, in essence, marketing their sires and damsires to the world.

[Kyzteke]

Totally agree! This is the market talking and I for one am sorry to see it. I wonder how many lovely stallions we've lost because they were gangly 2+ yr olds or they couldn't hold up to that much work that early.

Just like with TBs, they are turning the market toward early maturers, and that is not always a good thing. Personally, I would prefer to breed for longevity and soundness.

I want to see what the stallions look like NATURALLY, almost right out of the field (except prettier and in a fit condition)...what sort of 2 yr olds need shoes when they aren't even being ridden?

Don't tell me -- are they starting to put weighed shoes on the front to get that leg action? Please say "NO!!"

[bluemoonfarms]

When I attended some of the licensing in the past the handlers were more than happy to bring a stallion out of his stall. You could have the opportunity to see the horse up close. I also had the stallion walked to and away from me at the walk & trot on hard ground. I never felt any knowledge was withheld and got to see everything I needed to see.

[Marydell]

The owners and handlers still do that. But you have to ask to see the specific horse. That is why I can't answer the question about the correctness of the front leg in the QQ. I did not waste their time asking for that as I was not interested enough(I have much of the same blood) in that particular horse.
I have in the past asked to see several, and did this year as well, when I am considering breeding to them in the future.
But most of the youngsters did have shoes on. It does not always mean that they need them. But shoes with front toe clips enhance front leg movement. It is done all the time. I first was appaled by the practice when I noticed some--not all-- of the BN farms doing this at DAD. When I first noticed this back in the early 90s,it was on a yearling.
So I guess I have become complacent about it over time and find nothing unusual about it. I have learned how to judge the mechanics of movement vs "flash".
For years now I have been concerned about the direction of what I call "pretty" vs "performance" type horses being licensed. This year I found more to like than not.

[EquusMagnificus]

But shoes with front toe clips enhance front leg movement. It is done all the time.

How does that work?