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  1. #1
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    Default WIHS: Who's signing as trainer?

    I was watching WIHS online and messing around on the WIHS site, and I figured out how to pull trainer's reports for the week. So I put in a couple numbers just for kicks and made some interesting discoveries.

    Peggy Gehman is listed as trainer for Scott Stewart's horses.

    Gerardo Escalara is listed as trainer for Heritage's entries.

    Louise Serio, Alex Jayne, Archie Cox, Winn Alden, Cookie Beck, Elizabeth Solter and Aaron Vale all sign their own. Carelton Brooks' wife signs for his horses and Tony Workman signs for Tom Brennan, as expected. Amanda Derbyshire signs for the Gochman horses, but I know she's part of the "home crew" for the Gochmans.

    It should be interesting to see who signs for other barns as we progress through the week.
    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.



  2. #2
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    Default

    Interesting. It's nice to see some people being "upfront". Too bad some others aren't..



  3. #3
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    Hmmm...veeery interesting
    Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian



  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sing Mia Song View Post
    I was watching WIHS online and messing around on the WIHS site, and I figured out how to pull trainer's reports for the week. So I put in a couple numbers just for kicks and made some interesting discoveries.

    Peggy Gehman is listed as trainer for Scott Stewart's horses.

    Gerardo Escalara is listed as trainer for Heritage's entries.

    Louise Serio, Alex Jayne, Archie Cox, Winn Alden, Cookie Beck, Elizabeth Solter and Aaron Vale all sign their own. Carelton Brooks' wife signs for his horses and Tony Workman signs for Tom Brennan, as expected. Amanda Derbyshire signs for the Gochman horses, but I know she's part of the "home crew" for the Gochmans.

    It should be interesting to see who signs for other barns as we progress through the week.
    Not sure what your point is.
    The 'trainer' is the person responsible for care custody and control, not the rider. So unless you know who has care custody and control you can't read too much into who signs.

    Although one of the riders you mention had three medication violations within a few months so perhaps that individual doesn't want any more vacation time.

    Often a horse can be boarded at barn A and the rider comes from barn B. In that case someone from barn A ( or the owner ) should sign as trainer.

    Are you saying that you know the roles of all the individuals you mentioned or where all the horses as boarded?


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  5. #5
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    The person listed may be the barn manager or head groom. The trainer that stands at the in gate or rides the horse is probably not the one doing the feed and supplements (and medication), it is the grooms and/or manager and therefore whoever is in charge of that should also be signing off for the care of the horses.



  6. #6
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    Default

    But, REALLY???

    I mean, I guess I understand the intention behind the distinction between trainer/coach- that makes sense when you have people meeting trainers at shows vs. boarding with trainers in barns. Obviously a trainer that has absolutely no involvement with the day to day care of a horse is not going to take the liability of signing the trainer line for a client that's meeting them at a horse show.

    But I really don't believe this distinction was intended to free up trainers from the responsibility of answering for drugs/meds violations simply because they aren't the ones physically feeding at the horse shows. They're the ones giving out the instructions. It's not like the groom or the wife is designing the medication program for the string.

    Just to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone at WIHS of anything shady.
    Here today, gone tomorrow...



  7. #7
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    As it's intended to be the person responsible that signs as trainer, why don't they change it to actually say that?
    Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
    But, REALLY???

    I mean, I guess I understand the intention behind the distinction between trainer/coach- that makes sense when you have people meeting trainers at shows vs. boarding with trainers in barns. Obviously a trainer that has absolutely no involvement with the day to day care of a horse is not going to take the liability of signing the trainer line for a client that's meeting them at a horse show.

    But I really don't believe this distinction was intended to free up trainers from the responsibility of answering for drugs/meds violations simply because they aren't the ones physically feeding at the horse shows. They're the ones giving out the instructions. It's not like the groom or the wife is designing the medication program for the string.

    Just to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone at WIHS of anything shady.
    I agree wholeheartedly.
    Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by iEquitate View Post
    The person listed may be the barn manager or head groom. The trainer that stands at the in gate or rides the horse is probably not the one doing the feed and supplements (and medication), it is the grooms and/or manager and therefore whoever is in charge of that should also be signing off for the care of the horses.
    Who is in charge of designing and overseeing the feeding/supplements/medication program in your barn?

    Is it your groom/barn manager? Or is it your trainer in tandem with your vet?

    When your horse feels a little stiff (let's assume this is age related, not an injury) and you think a supplement or medication might help, do you ask your groom or barn manager about it? Or do you ask your trainer?
    Here today, gone tomorrow...



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
    Who is in charge of designing and overseeing the feeding/supplements/medication program in your barn?

    Is it your groom/barn manager? Or is it your trainer in tandem with your vet?

    When your horse feels a little stiff (let's assume this is age related, not an injury) and you think a supplement or medication might help, do you ask your groom or barn manager about it? Or do you ask your trainer?
    Exactly.

    While, yes, a groom may be administering supplements or medication, the trainer is dictating who gets what and when—and thus should bear responsibility.



  11. #11
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    The entry asks for "trainer." Not barn manager, groom or babysitter. None of the aforementioned positions have anything to do with "training." They don't physically train, ride/show or instruct. They may be completing the entry for the trainer, but it's the trainer's responsibility to sign off on it.

    If anyone involved with a particular barn can sign the entry as "trainer," then what's the point of asking anyone to sign at all?
    Fan of the Swedish Chef


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    The entry asks for "trainer." Not barn manager, groom or babysitter. None of the aforementioned positions have anything to do with "training." They don't physically train, ride/show or instruct. They may be completing the entry for the trainer, but it's the trainer's responsibility to sign off on it.

    If anyone involved with a particular barn can sign the entry as "trainer," then what's the point of asking anyone to sign at all?

    Again, per the USEF rules, the signature of the "trainer" on an entry from is to denote the person with PRIMARY responsibility for the horse at the show. I sign as my own trainer at every show, even though I train with somebody.

    A trainer is the one who will take the blame if a violation of the rules is discovered.

    Your definition of a trainer is the coach.

    The rule:

    GR147:
    1) Any adult who has the responsibility for the care, training custody, or performance of a horse.
    2) Said person must sign the entry blank of any Licensed Competition whether said person is owner, rider, agent and/or coach as well as trainer.
    3) Parent or guardian of minors will take on role of trainer. (paraphrase here)
    4) Name of trainer must be designated on said entry blank. See also GR404.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post

    The rule:

    GR147:
    1) Any adult who has the responsibility for the care, training custody, or performance of a horse.
    2) Said person must sign the entry blank of any Licensed Competition whether said person is owner, rider, agent and/or coach as well as trainer.
    3) Parent or guardian of minors will take on role of trainer. (paraphrase here)
    4) Name of trainer must be designated on said entry blank. See also GR404.
    So the grooms and barn managers have limited responsibility for the care of many horses in certain set ups and environments. Fair enough. But the training custody and performance?

    I still have a hard time believing it was the intention of the USEF to see this rule used in such a manner when they created it. To have entire medication programs designed by one person and then signed off on by another seems somewhat backward to me. Particularly when it's the trainer (non-signatory) doing the hiring of the Trainer (signatory) in most cases.
    Here today, gone tomorrow...



  14. #14
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    Jun. 9, 2012
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    Mental note: If I ever lose my moral compass, start cheating, and get caught and suspended, I just need to have someone else in my barn who takes orders from me sign as trainer, so I can keep doing the same stuff, just under someone's name.

    Got it. Reason #1Million to love a good loop hole.


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  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    The entry asks for "trainer." Not barn manager, groom or babysitter. None of the aforementioned positions have anything to do with "training." They don't physically train, ride/show or instruct. They may be completing the entry for the trainer, but it's the trainer's responsibility to sign off on it.

    If anyone involved with a particular barn can sign the entry as "trainer," then what's the point of asking anyone to sign at all?
    I tend to agree with this!

    FWIW, I usually always see Andre listed as trainer for his students, so its a bit odd to see a different name listed. He has apparently never been bothered before by having his name listed as "trainer". So maybe this time he was ill, away, lazy () or there is something afoot that only those in the know know about!



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
    So the grooms and barn managers have limited responsibility for the care of many horses in certain set ups and environments. Fair enough. But the training custody and performance?
    First off, there is a comma between "training" and "custody". Secondly, ther is an "or", not an "and".
    It is
    1) Any adult who has the responsibility for the care, training, custody, or performance of a horse.
    If different people are involved in "care", "training", "custody", "performance", you get to pick which one will sign as "Trainer".

    Whoever signed as trainer is, prima facie, the "person responsible" if a drug test comes back positive.

    But the Hearing Committe CAN use common sense, and I HAVE seen cases where someone who did not sign as "Trainer" has been hit with the penalty for the drug result.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    The entry asks for "trainer." Not barn manager, groom or babysitter. None of the aforementioned positions have anything to do with "training." They don't physically train, ride/show or instruct.
    The USEF definition of "Trainer" is different from the way it is commonly used.

    ..responsibility for the care, training, custody, or performance of a horse
    includes barn managers, grooms, riders, OR coaches.

    USEF has a separate definition for "coach".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    First off, there is a comma between "training" and "custody". Secondly, ther is an "or", not an "and".
    It is


    If different people are involved in "care", "training", "custody", "performance", you get to pick which one will sign as "Trainer".

    Whoever signed as trainer is, prima facie, the "person responsible" if a drug test comes back positive.

    But the Hearing Committe CAN use common sense, and I HAVE seen cases where someone who did not sign as "Trainer" has been hit with the penalty for the drug result.
    I grasp the foundation of this argument. As a junior, I showed with an ammy whose horses met us at shows, and spent a couple weeks at the barn here and there with my trainer. The owner still signed the entries as trainer, despite being in full training on occasion with my actual trainer. These horses had any number of disconnected people involved in their day-to-day/week-to-week care, and the owner took on the responsibility/liability of signing as trainer (for good reason).

    That being said, "placement of commas" really shouldn't allow John Smith to take the blame for those with more at stake in any circumstance. Janet, you would certainly know better than me if the Hearing Committee *regularly* (operative word) exercises common sense in cases where Trainer (signatory) signs in place of trainer (non-signatory).
    Here today, gone tomorrow...



  19. #19
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    Sep. 29, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
    I grasp the foundation of this argument. As a junior, I showed with an ammy whose horses met us at shows, and spent a couple weeks at the barn here and there with my trainer. The owner still signed the entries as trainer, despite being in full training on occasion with my actual trainer. These horses had any number of disconnected people involved in their day-to-day/week-to-week care, and the owner took on the responsibility/liability of signing as trainer (for good reason).
    Having the horse's owner sign as Trainer seems a whole 'nother ball of wax from having a random groom/BM/assistant/whatever sign as Trainer. The owner at least is ultimately the responsible party for the training, riding, care, custody, and control, because they've chosen who to pay to do those things for them/their horse. I don't have an issue with that at all, and I sign as Trainer for mine, because they're ultimately my responsibility.

    I do find it rather interesting, and honestly, I would be somewhere between "unhappy" and "suspicious" if my horse were one of those whose Trainer was someone other than the trainer. Which is probably why mine isn't in any of those programs



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
    That being said, "placement of commas" really shouldn't allow John Smith to take the blame for those with more at stake in any circumstance. Janet, you would certainly know better than me if the Hearing Committee *regularly* (operative word) exercises common sense in cases where Trainer (signatory) signs in place of trainer (non-signatory).
    Sorry but placement of punctuation has a great deal to do with the meaning of a phrase.
    And the USEF Hearing Committee placing blame on a non signer is a very rare situation.

    Once more, the person riding the horse may not be the person who has responsibility for the horse under USEF rules.
    Simply riding the horse at a show means nothing as far as liability for drug infractions. Do not confuse the USEF rule with the FEI rule where the rider is the 'person responsible'.
    Many horses do not board with the person who is riding them.

    Signing as Coach prevents that person from taking any responsibility under the drug/medication rules. It simply means they are acting in some way as a trainer of the horse or rider but do not have any physical control over the horse.

    USEF definition of coach:

    "GR108 Coach .
    For purposes of these rules, a coach is defined as any adult or adults who receives remuneration for having or sharing the responsibility for instructing, teaching, schooling, or advising a rider, driver, handler or vaulter in equestrian skills."



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