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  1. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    I doubt the cow punches who originated this kind of riding were interested in reading the FEI rules.
    which is why of course that there is not much ridden work done in trot in their written tests....you walk to the fields,you canter to move the cattle,you walk back home. :>
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


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  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    which is why of course that there is not much ridden work done in trot in their written tests....you walk to the fields,you canter to move the cattle,you walk back home. :>
    Yep, modern cowboys, but when I worked the cattle ranch in the mid-sixties, we did do alot of trot work. Cantering a horse makes cattle run which takes weight off.


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  3. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonharte8 View Post
    Yep, modern cowboys, but when I worked the cattle ranch in the mid-sixties, we did do alot of trot work. Cantering a horse makes cattle run which takes weight off.

    anyway,I was obviously referring to the Doma Vaquera riders....the trot is not used in their cattle work.
    Their cattle are not docile pin legged butterballs as the cattle here are....they are field kept range mothers with impressive sets of clown stabbers who take offense to men and yes their work is done at the walk and the VERY explosive canter...

    perhaps this will help in your understanding of what the working animals really do:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpNXgrKfkig
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRx9u...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zH09...eature=related
    Last edited by Tamara in TN; Nov. 4, 2012 at 09:23 AM. Reason: should not post when overly annoyed
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


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  4. #324
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    Working cows is when I had a flash of insight about where the jog gait came from. Not the deathly slower-than-a-walk thing that you see in the show ring these days, but the kind of gait that gets you from here to there a bit quicker than a walk, but is so smooth that the cattle barely notice an increase in speed, and thus don't react to it and scatter from he!! to breakfast. You can go wide so as to not interrupt the flow of the herd, but still get where you need to be. There is a good, working reason that QHs have the gaits they do (or were supposed to have, once upon a time ...).

    When I'm out on a scenic trail ride with my WB-riding dressage buddies, I'm always having to slip into a long jog to catch up--their horses just have more scope to their walks, and are taught to really walk out, and generally have longer legs. I'm always apologizing, but my one good friend always adds "yeah, but if I had to sit on it ALL DAY, I'd sure rather have your horse to do it on!"

    (and you still need a good long trot to get to the cattle ... )
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.


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  5. #325
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    The western riders I know all post the trot, at least some of the time. But not the jog.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    Those martingales were so taut, you could play Ode to Joy on them with a comb


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  6. #326
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    The western riders I know post when they need to .
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.


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  7. #327
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    When i barrel raced and rode western a lot I posted when needed. When needed was when the horse extended the trot and moved in it which needed a post to be more comfortable. When we jogged I'd sit no need to post. It's very comfy and easy.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


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  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the video, it is a really well trained horse but this as nothing to do with what is being asked in dressage and cannot be compared.


    This horse is doing a great garrocha demonstration.
    But this ride wouldn't stand long in a dressage ring.
    TOTALLY disagree! This horse is performing very precise movements (JUST as precise as any a GP dressage horse will be asked to do), in close to perfect balance the entire time with far more fluidity and freedom than you are going to see in any dressage ring. There are BOTH extensions and increase in speed in this "demo"; in terms of harmony, communication, athletic difficulty and lightness of aides, this blows any GP rider o/o the water. Seriously...

    Now, I can't contact the gentlemen in the video and ask if he would enter a dressage test, but I would invite you to get one of your GP friends to do the same "demo" this horse did. You don't have to hold the pole, just get in the arena and repeat all the moves the Spanish horse did, at the same speed/gaits, etc. -- oh, but you can't touch the reins! Just do this with your seat.

    When I see this, I will rethink my opinion...but until then my $$ will go on the Spanish horse. Inother words, you could drop him in just about any USDF ring around and he would score VERY respectfully in upper level dressage, whereas 90% of upper level dressage horses would suck pretty badly in "garrouche", even if they didn't have to hold the pole...

    So I'm thinking the Spanish horse is better trained AND better ridden.

    But all of this is WAY off topic. The point is to all you Western Dressagers -- don't go for the easy way!! Don't dumb it down before you've even had a chance to find out what "western dressage" really IS.

    Once a bunch of people can ride like many of the people we've shown in videos, THEN they can have a show among THEM. But first you have to master the discipline. The road is out there, and not hard to follow.

    Do that first and you will find there are already "rules" that apply.


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  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
    Western dressage and USDF dressage will always be apples and oranges....we do not neck rein, they do. ;-)
    Actually -- not true. The French riders and the Spanish (even if they are doing 'traditional' dressage) will ride one-handed. It's a old calverly requirement so you could hold your sword in the other hand. Even the SRS does one-handed demos. So what is the difference?

    An educated rider knows there isn't really a difference -- you are teaching the horse to respond primarily to the leg/seat/wgt of rider -- the reins against the neck are more like a "reminder", which helps if you are going at speed (like barrel racing or polo).

    But it all springs from the same stream, folks! We should be looking at the similarities rather than the differences.


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  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    -- oh, but you can't touch the reins! Just do this with your seat.
    I respect and admire the training that went into that garrocha ride, but doing anything with "just your seat" would be bridleless or with loose floppy reins.


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  11. #331
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    Why didn't I think of this before!?!?!

    I know how to bring this dastardly idea to a quick demise! Let's call Pat & Linda Parelli and ask if they would become the new spokespeople for Western Dressage!!


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  12. #332
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    Ok, they can tie the reins totheir saddle...I sort of figured they'd want to do that anyway. AND they still don't have to hold the pole


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  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Actually -- not true. The French riders and the Spanish (even if they are doing 'traditional' dressage) will ride one-handed. It's a old calverly requirement so you could hold your sword in the other hand. Even the SRS does one-handed demos. So what is the difference?

    An educated rider knows there isn't really a difference -- you are teaching the horse to respond primarily to the leg/seat/wgt of rider -- the reins against the neck are more like a "reminder", which helps if you are going at speed (like barrel racing or polo).

    But it all springs from the same stream, folks! We should be looking at the similarities rather than the differences.
    And that may be true...however the western dressage tests...some of them, the whole thing is neck reining. USDF dressage, it's all two handed until you get to the freestyles. The western folk will develop their own rules, specific bits etc to suit their ways of training. Of course any educated rider knows legs and seat and weight and eyeballs turn a horse, that is a given. I would assume everyone here knows that in spades. I have seen the videos of some of the western dressage tests...those tests are written by the western folk to suit their needs.

    I am not so sure there are alot of similiarities, not yet. I hope the western folk will learn what connection is and what collection is...those are two different concepts as well. It's not a headset. I applaud their efforts, hope they all learn that accuracy equals control and welcome them at all of our local shows.

    We ALL have a lot to learn...it may all spring from the same desires, but it's going to be applied differently. From what I have seen, I stand by my statement...it's apples and oranges. I hope that will change as the trend gains popularity and headsets and snaffles with curb chains will become a thing of the past.....



  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    I know how to bring this dastardly idea to a quick demise! Let's call Pat & Linda Parelli and ask if they would become the new spokespeople for Western Dressage!!
    Shhhhhhh!


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  15. #335
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    Well progress is being made. The upcoming horse expos in Maryland and Pennsylvania will have WD clinics and we're trying to get the clinician to swing by our barn.

    I'm very excited.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  16. #336
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    John Richard Young's article "Calling a Spade a Spade" was brought up earlier in this thread, and since my library book came on Friday and I had a chance to read it, I thought I'd share a few thoughts.

    First of all, I've never read a more poorly argued article on any bit before, given that it was basically a rambling rant. I may read a bit more of the book out of curiosity, but I must say this wasn't an encouraging first glance at it.

    As regards the spade bit itself, the author argues "When the reins are tightened, the cross-bar of the bit presses on the bars of the horse's lower jaw... etc etc". This statement reminds me of another article on the spade, which declares tongue in cheek that while a violin might function as something to smash cockroaches with, that's not how best the item might serve us. In other words, Mr Young, in his understanding of the spade, is wired to act far too crudely to comment on even the most superficial action of the bit.

    There are a myriad of reactions in the spade and romal setup that might be addressed before the bit comes anywhere near the bars. If the rider chooses to see the first action of the bit as Mr Young describes and uses the tack as such, I sincerely agree that they will see no benefit to using it whatsoever. This line of thinking comes from the "correction bit" mentality that shows up in western competitive events, where bits employ tongue relief and are used somewhat...assertively.

    The rest of the article largely argues that because Mr Young never saw a horse trained to his liking in a spade (with a soft eye etc), it was therefore impossible. This is a bit of an egocentric notion of horsemanship, especially given the the fact that a lot of us know not to go seeking horsemanship in the show ring. Given the plural of anecdote is not data, I hope nobody takes his arguments as gospel.


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  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Why didn't I think of this before!?!?!

    I know how to bring this dastardly idea to a quick demise! Let's call Pat & Linda Parelli and ask if they would become the new spokespeople for Western Dressage!!
    Wouldn't Linda need to ride Dressage first?


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  18. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktill View Post

    There are a myriad of reactions in the spade and romal setup that might be addressed before the bit comes anywhere near the bars. .
    yeah kinda like saying driving a car is all and only about parallel parking:>
    found this also thought about you
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLQG4...hannel&list=UL

    :> Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  19. #339
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    Thank you for this video link. I suddenly understood the difference between Western Dressage and Cowboy Dressage. At least I think I now do. Western Dressage is classical dressage moves on any breed of horse, in western tack, with a snaffle bit and contact, albeit light contact. on the reins. Cowboy Dressage is more classical western riding, with hardly any contact, yet the horse responding to a "soft feel" and correct head position. I see that riders rode with both hands even tho they were using shank bits.

    I wonder if this differentiation has reached the judges? And is it clearly defined which type of show for the contestant?


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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by brandymagoo View Post
    Thank you for this video link. I suddenly understood the difference between Western Dressage and Cowboy Dressage. At least I think I now do. Western Dressage is classical dressage moves on any breed of horse, in western tack, with a snaffle bit and contact, albeit light contact. on the reins. Cowboy Dressage is more classical western riding, with hardly any contact, yet the horse responding to a "soft feel" and correct head position. I see that riders rode with both hands even tho they were using shank bits.

    I wonder if this differentiation has reached the judges? And is it clearly defined which type of show for the contestant?
    Western Dressage (in Canada anyway) is working towards developing a pleasure type horse. It uses lateral movements to help develop the collection and responsiveness. There are no speed moves. Cowboy dressage is more the development of a working cow horse type, so faster/showier moves. Western Dressage allows regular snaffles (not twisted), curbs, or bitless. No idea what cowboy dressage allows.

    What the judges are meant to judge, is clearly spelled out in the rule book, and on the tests.



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