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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrs.smith View Post
    He bases his training on classical dressage techniques (mostly Baucher) and knowing where the horses feet are for the timing of the cues. His book, "If I Were to Train a Horse" is excellent (http://www.jackbr
    "Knowing where the feet are" is (again) a pretty basic need for the rider. This is NOT a particular tenet of a particular school of riding. How the heck can someone give an effective aide if they give it at a time when the horse can't respond? Knowing where the feet are at all times is NOT optional for any kind of real horsemanship.

    This is BASIC HORSEMANSHIP boys & girls!! It's not reining, or dressage or cutting or western dressage. It's BASIC Pony Club stuff...

    And while Brainard sounds like a fine old style horseman, he's not the only guy alive who "promotes" this type of riding. Dennis Reis, Buck Brannaman, Craig Cameron, Peter Campbell, this list goes on and on and on...

    But none of these guys are out promoting a new sport -- instead, they are promoting GOOD RIDING.

    In my opinion Jack's efforts would be better served if he turned his efforts to AQHA and their weird, freaky WP classes.

    Here is my take: if you want to study TRUE old-style, vacquro-type horsemanship, study under any of the folks I've listed. They do NOT promote short-cuts or dumbing down, which is what USDF Intro & WD is all about IMHO. Start investigating "Californio" style riding/training. They have an annual show BTW.

    If you want something different and lighter and more harmonious in English style riding, study the French school of dressage.

    If you want to compete in 'modern' dressage, study under the currrent Dutch & German trainers (or even Carl).

    If you want to get ribbons & pretty cups, try Intro or WD...


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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    "Dennis Reis,
    really?



  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    really?
    Doyou not agree? I've just seen some of his videos and he looks very competent to me...

    Now, for those who REALLY want to see "western" riders do "dressage" take alook at these guys:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47um6...eature=fvwrelo

    This is who should be teaching "western dressage." Those folks on the video are just rather sorry...


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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Doyou not agree?
    no.



  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    no.
    Well, to each their own. Personally, BB will always be the most elegant "western dressage" rider I know of. End of discussion (MHO)

    Again, here is a example of REAL "western dressage"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOVyk...feature=g-vrec

    It's one way to make sure your 20m circles are really round...



  6. #306
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    Default Now THIS is western dressage!

    Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

    I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

    If this isn't proof you do NOT need a choke hold on your horse's face to have a fluid and accurate "conversation" with
    them, I don't know what would be...

    Mr. Brainard should just ditch those silly WD classes and show folks this video and tell them "learn to ride like this!!"

    Of course, you'd lose 95% of those interested, because it takes a long time and alot of dedication to learn to ride like this, but hey...it's either real horsemanship or it's BS.


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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
    And then there is the semantics...a western snaffle has a curb chain, a western curb has a curb chain...to me, they are one and the same bit...one is jointed, one is not, but both have the curb chain. A snaffle is an O ring, D ring, full cheek etc...it has NO curb chain. At least to me that is how it is.

    Yes, a shanked snaffle/tom thumb will have a curb chain or strap, but IME, I've never known a western trainer who considered that a true snaffle. Every western trainer I've known considers a snaffle to be a D-ring, O-ring, eggbutt, or offset/western D-ring. They do use a bit hobble, all leather, no chain, and no curb action. All it does is work like a full cheek snaffle, it provides some added pressure to the side of the jaw, prevents the bit from sliding through the mouth, and stabilizes the bit.



  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

    I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

    If this isn't proof you do NOT need a choke hold on your horse's face to have a fluid and accurate "conversation" with
    them, I don't know what would be...

    Mr. Brainard should just ditch those silly WD classes and show folks this video and tell them "learn to ride like this!!"

    Of course, you'd lose 95% of those interested, because it takes a long time and alot of dedication to learn to ride like this, but hey...it's either real horsemanship or it's BS.
    I'm totally interested in garrocha these days, so I appreciate seeing a video. However, I'm not a fan of how this horse's reins are. IMHO, the reins are too short and there isn't enough slack with the curb to say that this horse is in self-carriage. Yes, the rider isn't touching the reins, and yes, the horse is working off seat and leg - bravo for that. But there is too much flexion from the curb rein for my liking - this horse has no other options with his head and neck and looks force in this position.
    My Mustang Adventures - Mac, my mustang | Annwylid D'Lite - my Cob filly

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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pocket Pony View Post
    I'm totally interested in garrocha these days, so I appreciate seeing a video. However, I'm not a fan of how this horse's reins are. IMHO, the reins are too short and there isn't enough slack with the curb to say that this horse is in self-carriage. Yes, the rider isn't touching the reins, and yes, the horse is working off seat and leg - bravo for that. But there is too much flexion from the curb rein for my liking - this horse has no other options with his head and neck and looks force in this position.
    He has as much or more freedom in his head position than 90% of the horses being ridden in the dressage ring today. Those riders have the curb engaged almost the entire time. If you will look at the angle of the curb shank and the horse's mouth you will see #1) the curb is in a neutral position MOST of the time and #2) the horse's mouth remains closed, unlike what you see in most GP rings. This is a sign of relaxation. In the end of the exhibit, the horse is galloping much faster than any GP horse is asked to move and manages to do so just fine in such a head set. So I don't see this horse unduly restrained at all.

    But on COTH you could post a video of the Second Coming and someone would complain the cloud Jesus was on is the wrong color...

    I think much of what you are seeing is more a factor of this horse's natural conformation and shorter, stockier neck.


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  10. #310
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    Ahh, thanks Kyzteke for the garrocha video. I was looking for it.
    A well "dressed" horse indeed (and the rider, too). I forget to breath watching those two. To me, it looks like the reins are run through a metal bracket on the pommel and then around the rider's waist. ? Pause at :24-:26.


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  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    He has as much or more freedom in his head position than 90% of the horses being ridden in the dressage ring today. Those riders have the curb engaged almost the entire time. If you will look at the angle of the curb shank and the horse's mouth you will see #1) the curb is in a neutral position MOST of the time and #2) the horse's mouth remains closed, unlike what you see in most GP rings. This is a sign of relaxation. In the end of the exhibit, the horse is galloping much faster than any GP horse is asked to move and manages to do so just fine in such a head set. So I don't see this horse unduly restrained at all.
    1. I don' t see that at all. The shanks are more like engaged at 45-90 degree at all time. The shanks in neutral position should be parallel to the mouth, where?

    2. or a sign of a tight curb chain. The rider has a constant contact with the bit so the horse is not disturbed by much interventions, that is probably the reason why he is not opening its mouth.

    Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoyed the video, it is a really well trained horse but this as nothing to do with what is being asked in dressage and cannot be compared.

    What is the point of your comment about going faster than any GP horse at the canter? GP horse aren't asked to go faster. And they actually have to let the horse extend its neck/frame while performing the extended canter. It is extended canter, not fast gallop.

    But on COTH you could post a video of the Second Coming and someone would complain the cloud Jesus was on is the wrong color...
    This horse is doing a great garrocha demonstration.
    But this ride wouldn't stand long in a dressage ring.
    And not because the horse/rider aren't able but because what we are looking for in a good garrocha horse is not the same as a dressage horse.
    Short strides/a bit choppy, rushing in the gaits, impured gaits, lots of unclean changes. Not at all time of course, but enough for any horse to receive a pretty low score in dressage where in a garrocha performance, where there is no judges, it doesn't really matter. (it will probably be worked out in training sessions after or not even)

    I think much of what you are seeing is more a factor of this horse's natural conformation and shorter, stockier neck.
    Yes that is true. That is also a reason why you don't see that much PRE or Lusitano in dressage competitions. We do see them more often now and it is because the breeding programs are leaning toward dressage more.

    I'm glad there are people who want to preserve the breeds by breeding and training them in their traditional ways. It would truly be a shame if all horses were to move or be ridden the same.


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  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

    I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

    .
    thank you K. THIS was the video I looked like for about an hour.
    This is a horse ridden with the seat and body and the mouth is in the place it should be...last.
    And this separates the Moorish seat from all others. And always will.

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  13. #313
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    the video of the Garrocha horse is NOT off the seat alone... the reins are tied to the riders waist - and they are tied *short* that horse is no more off the seat and in self carriage than any other cranked in horse.

    i will admit it is an interesting video - but that is NOT what i would want to see in western work!



  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    Sorry, getting carried away with this WD thing, but this vid blew me away:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Y1F_f87F0

    I was watching it for a whole minute before I realized the rider never even touches the reins!! They are tied to the pommel. So all of this is being done with seat & leg.

    If this isn't proof you do NOT need a choke hold on your horse's face to have a fluid and accurate "conversation" with
    them, I don't know what would be...

    Mr. Brainard should just ditch those silly WD classes and show folks this video and tell them "learn to ride like this!!"

    Of course, you'd lose 95% of those interested, because it takes a long time and alot of dedication to learn to ride like this, but hey...it's either real horsemanship or it's BS.
    In this case the pommel has a strangle hold on the horse's face. Not impressed. The horse's chin is on his chest for chris' sake.



  15. #315
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    fwiw, the reins are not tied to the pommel but instead to the riders waist - therefore he has huge leverage and uses it.



  16. #316
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    Either way, the pommel would also provide huge leverage.

    Also the horse is taking tense, uneven steps, because he is of course not through...



  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Also the horse is taking tense, uneven steps, because he is of course not through...
    I think this is more about the precisio and training. Wouldn't want a relaxed big striding horse while wielding that stick.



  18. #318
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    Why not? Is there an advantage to riding a tense uneven-striding horse while wielding a big stick? The horse isn't showing a true collected walk.

    In any case the riding is not comparable to good dressage riding.



  19. #319
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    [QUOTE=grayarabpony;6647523]Why not? Is there an advantage to riding a tense uneven-striding horse while wielding a big stick? The horse isn't showing a true collected walk.

    In any case the riding is not comparable to good dressage riding.[/QUOTE

    I doubt the cow punches who originated this kind of riding were interested in reading the FEI rules.



  20. #320
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    So? The video was posted as an example of what western dressage should be striving for.



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