[blackwly]

And if they are going to comment in this fashion, they had better make sure their malpractice premiums are paid, or make DARN sure they remain anonymous. Because the next person who is NOT so fortunate might just have reason to sue Point 2 (it happens) and you can bet that this "surgeon" will find him or herself giving a deposition in which he/she is asked "upon what basis did you make your proclamation that this vest prevented a fractured spine, doctor?"

That's the way our country rolls.

Agreed. But I would be willing to bet this was a fairly offhand comment and he has no idea of the controversy or the fact that he have been publicly quoted.

[deltawave]

That's what I'm thinking. He/she would probably be royally ticked to know that a casual comment had been elevated to the status of dogma.

[skydy]

Agreed. But I would be willing to bet this was a fairly offhand comment and he has no idea of the controversy or the fact that he have been publicly quoted.

I agree, and as Deltawave noted, what you as an M.D. say, is not necessarily what people hear.
I still think that it's unlikely that any Dr. would say that the air vest prevented a "broken neck", at least I hope so.

[deltawave]

Using layman's terms to describe medical stuff to, well, laypeople, is perfectly OK and can help a lot with communication, provided one is not TOO casual about it. But yeah, a reference to a "broken neck" sort of makes one think the conversation was not taking place at a highly scientific or seriously forensic level.

[Jealoushe]

(yes you JER and Jealoushe....I can see why I should value the opinion of a "model, actress, business chick" above that of a surgeon or ULR....hilarious!) are now like a rabid dog with a bone. Admitted personal vendettas, being insulting and dismissive of KOC's vast experience, etc etc.

Hey....! Thanks for stopping by my profile. You know, just because one is not a Dr, a Lawyer, a Research analyst etc does not mean they are not intelligent, or have a clue to what they are talking about. There are always those with big degrees that are just plain dense. It works both ways. I have to also add that just because someone is an ULR, does not mean they have a damn clue about the engineering of a safety product. Lets be serious. If you have a problem with my entertainment career history...I am so sorry that you feel that way...the money I make to pay for my equine passion is NOT sorry.

It's not a personal vendetta against KOC, its against a company, Point Two. They promised answers, and almost 2 years later we are still waiting. Karen chooses to wear a P2, even after a bad accident, and now she has had another. Have they been worsened by the vest? We can't be certain at this time. However, the possibility is there. We need to explore the possibility.

If you choose to continue to wear the P2, that is your choice. It's clear that your vendetta is against those who want basic scientific research.

[JER]

While I do value some posters contributions because they have proven themselves to be intelligent, knowledgeable and inspire constructive conversation a few others (yes you JER and Jealoushe....I can see why I should value the opinion of a "model, actress, business chick" above that of a surgeon or ULR....hilarious!) are now like a rabid dog with a bone.

sisu27, I'm not a model or an actress or a business anything.

I'm an EMT and have a considerable amount of field/ER experience and classroom hours in trauma and accidents.

[kerilli]

sisu, why on earth do you think an ULR's opinion on airjackets is more valid than a low-level rider's? seriously?
I'm 'just a rider', with a keen interest in safety, and a questioning mind.
THIS is the sort of report that makes me sit up and think (from a post on Horse and Hound forum, one I started, linking to this thread...!)

"Someone asked if anyone knew someone who had injury falling off in air jacket

Yes my sister fell off at XC fence in 2 point air jacket the lanyard thing did not deploy and she was dragged under the horse for quite a distance until the jacket actually was ripped from her back

She was badly bruised and shaken up , I guess it could of been a lot worse had she been hit in face my hoof.

Anyway she rang 2 point who swiftly replaced the jacket along with her ripped open new ariat riding boots and told her they were sorry , nothing more was said."

it's from here if you want to check: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forum...ht=coth&page=3

You can look at this 2 ways.
1, Wow, that is really great customer service from P2, how good of them to replace her jacket and pay for her damaged riding boots, how fantastic!
or
2. Jeezus Christ, so she got dragged under the horse 'for quite a distance' and didn't get free until the jacket ripped off her back? Surely that sort of thing should have happened to a crash test dummy somewhere, so that it could never happen to a rider (and a horse) out on a course...?!

Apparently this was the first version of the trigger (mentioned later by a poster who is very in favour of the P2, but had a similar problem with the trigger), which has now been updated (all first versions recalled and trigger mechanism replaced with new version f.o.c. I believe.) Great. But there's a word for companies which test early versions of products on the paying public, I can't think of it at the moment. iirc Dyson are/were famous for it.
I don't mind it in a vacuum cleaner fgs, but when we are talking about the safety and possibly the lives of my friends and my co-riders around the world, you know what, that's a different matter.

[deltawave]

there's a word for companies which test early versions of products on the paying public, I can't think of it at the moment.

Unethical?

[Jealoushe]

sisu27, I'm not a model or an actress or a business anything.

I'm an EMT and have a considerable amount of field/ER experience and classroom hours in trauma and accidents.

Oh don't worry, that was directed at me, taken straight from my Twitter profile... LOL

[skydy]

Here is a radio interview with Karen ,that was posted on another thread, in which she talks about her injury. (Bless her heart) http://chrisstafford.podbean.com/201...m_medium=email

[Black Points]

Thanks skydy for posting that link....I'm sure KOC will make a full recovery if anyone can.

Another thought regarding rotational falls.....does anyone remember PD's rotational fall at Fair Hill (IIRC). There was a set of photos of that fall and it was pretty horrific. What I'm thinking is that he was NOT wearing an air vest as I don't think they were around back then. If that's the case, it puts more importance on the protectiveness of the regular body vest.

Mary in Western NY

[snoopy]

Unethical?

[skydy]

Thanks skydy for posting that link....I'm sure KOC will make a full recovery if anyone can.

Another thought regarding rotational falls.....does anyone remember PD's rotational fall at Fair Hill (IIRC). There was a set of photos of that fall and it was pretty horrific. What I'm thinking is that he was NOT wearing an air vest as I don't think they were around back then. If that's the case, it puts more importance on the protectiveness of the regular body vest.

Mary in Western NY

She does seem to be very determined, I'm sure she'll do well. I'm so glad that she had surgical intervention. It seems quite a risk they took sending her home the first time without it. It's lucky that the "tingling" didn't progress to a much more serious problem.

I'm glad that I am unimportant, so no one has interviewed me after surgery when I'm zonked on pain meds!

[JmpR_1]

Question on vest in general..
Wouldn't the rigid-ness of the "normal" vest be harmful as well since it's not softening the blow? VS. the air vest giving more cushion?

[deltawave]

A normal air vest is not so rigid that the forces of a 150+ pound projectile hitting the ground wouldn't allow some movement of body parts. So I'm not sure it would be "more harmful" than not wearing one.

Yes, the entire principle of the air vest is to "soften the blow" and this could very well be its primary benefit and main selling point--to reduce bumps and bruises and soreness from a hard landing. The problem with the air vests (besides the glaring lack of evidence that they provide a meaningful incremental increase in safety) is the method of deployment--the lanyard and mechanics that can fail. That and the rather intense and rapid force of inflation possibly adding MORE kinetic energy to injured tissues than the fall itself did.

I wonder if a slower, baggier, flabbier and less forceful inflation would eliminate some of the latter concern? It would certainly suit me as a slower, flabbier, baggier and less forceful rider.