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  1. #101
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    Mar. 16, 2000
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    Chatham, NY USA
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    netg, I was trying to make the point that when people give photos away to any & all, this very probably affects the official photographer's income for the show. I'm NOT talking about mom/dad who takes a few pictures of the kids in the barn (yes, that will likely detract from our income, too, but c'est la vie) - I'm referring to those like the orig poster here, and others, who take gobloads of pictures, post them on FB or their site or wherever and say "Please feel free to take these and do what you like with them". Granted (if the person who took & posted them understands posting online), they are small and low-resolution, so printing an
    8x10 from them is pretty much out of the question. But so many customers want photos to share on the web that many of us offer that as an option now. And we put the same amount of effort into processing that picture as we do on a 16x20.

    I fear this is a losing argument for photographers who have spent years and thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours learning their art and refining skills in order to provide riders with irreplaceable memories and valuable sales or promotional tools. Show photography is NOT an entry-level position, a fun little frolic for someone who is otherwise bored at a show or for someone who has camera and can point it in the general direction of a horse.

    Carol
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


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  2. #102
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    Oct. 20, 2008
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    Sunshine State
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    Until she made the move out west, our barn had a fantastic hobbyist photographer with great equipment. I know one of the photogs gave her the 3rd degree when she was along photographing the riders from our barn. She said she was there to take pictures of her friends, as a hobby. He told her she better not take pictures of anyone else....

    Mind you this was at a schooling show with a photographer that we all know as the a$$ man, due to his tendency to shoot slightly out-of-focus photos from behind, so we get blurry shots of the horse and rider's rear end.

    When the true PRO photographers are around, I am always thrilled to support them. I will gladly pay for a quality product, however I think it's out of line to say the professional is the only person who can photograph you at a venue. That would be in line with saying no one could bring in their own hay or feed or bedding, and you could only use what the sponsoring vendor was selling, or no one could pack a cooler and everyone had to eat at the concession stand!

    Edited to add - I do understand the concern about the scale it's done on. I would understand a concession stand operator getting upset if I brought in my gigantic grill and started handing everyone a free burger.
    The rebel in the grey shirt



  3. #103
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    Nov. 13, 2007
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    Burbank, California
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    I don't have anything to add that hasn't been already said, but I much appreciate the thread. About a year ago, I had a friend who's (single) mom couldn't make it to a horse show that I was showing at as well, so I went and played "horse show mom," carried the water, and took pictures. I have decent equipment, (nice camera body but not a lot of money in the lenses) and stood right next to the show photog for my friend's rounds and chatted. He was actually very pleasant in person. My husband took some (very bad) photos of my rounds. I put them up on a photo-hosting website (not FB) and posted the link on my FB. I'm FB friends with the photographer, and he sent me the nastiest message on FB about selling photos where HE was the official photog...the pictures were just me and the friend I "mom-d" for at the show! I explained what happened, and he just kept on and on that I was doing something illegal...I'm a horrible, immoral person...it was very frustrating because I bought a pile of pics of myself from him from the same show, and he didn't even get the order right!

    I was buying lots of pictures from him until then, but now not only do I not buy his photos, no one in my barn does.
    "Look, I'm trying not to test the durability of the arena with my face!" (Because only GM can do that.)


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  4. #104
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    Mar. 16, 2000
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    Chatham, NY USA
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    Fun Size - WERE you offering your pictures for sale? Or were you simply posting them for your own and your friend's pleasure? If you were indeed selling them, the photog has a point. Perhaps his response was lacking in professionalism, but a point nonetheless.

    For those of you who are dissatisfied with the official photog at your shows, the more 'legitimate'/'appropriate' way of dealing with the situation would be to make your displeasure known to show management and encourage other competitors to do likewise. The squeaky wheels will (usually) get attention. Unless, of course, there's a bit of nepotism or 'old boys' club' involved with the hiring of the photog. Then, you show your displeasure with your pocketbook and refuse to purchase anything. Again, this action has to be a concerted statement by all those who are dissatisfied. If competitors grumble, but continue to purchase, the message does NOT come across loud & clear. But if the photog doesn't make enough to cover expenses, eventually he will get the picture (no pun intended).

    Carol
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast



  5. #105
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    Nov. 13, 2007
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    Burbank, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoronios View Post
    Fun Size - WERE you offering your pictures for sale? Or were you simply posting them for your own and your friend's pleasure? If you were indeed selling them, the photog has a point. Perhaps his response was lacking in professionalism, but a point nonetheless.
    Carol
    Good gracious no! I just put them up so my friend's mom could see them/download them/do what they wanted with them. The others were pictures of me. If I was selling pictures, I would have deserved anything and everything I got. I really was just playing show mom, and my husband was being show husband.

    I actually did put some pictures up on Etsy once, of some pictures I took in Yosemite, and as of today I have sold one whopping photo in my entire life - a really cute fuzzy caterpillar on the stem of a plant.

    ETA: The pics I attempted to sell were done during a class I took from a skilled nature photographer in Yosemite one year. That's why they were so good! Help and a practiced eye.

    If I wanted to make money (try to make money?) as a horse show photographer, I'd go out and spend a bunch of money on education, training and equipment and have a go at it. I think I'd rather just stick to filling in a show mom or taking pictures of friends I ride with when I happen to be around.
    "Look, I'm trying not to test the durability of the arena with my face!" (Because only GM can do that.)



  6. #106
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    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    243

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoronios View Post
    netg, I was trying to make the point that when people give photos away to any & all, this very probably affects the official photographer's income for the show. I'm NOT talking about mom/dad who takes a few pictures of the kids in the barn (yes, that will likely detract from our income, too, but c'est la vie) - I'm referring to those like the orig poster here, and others, who take gobloads of pictures, post them on FB or their site or wherever and say "Please feel free to take these and do what you like with them". Granted (if the person who took & posted them understands posting online), they are small and low-resolution, so printing an
    8x10 from them is pretty much out of the question. But so many customers want photos to share on the web that many of us offer that as an option now. And we put the same amount of effort into processing that picture as we do on a 16x20.

    I fear this is a losing argument for photographers who have spent years and thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours learning their art and refining skills in order to provide riders with irreplaceable memories and valuable sales or promotional tools. Show photography is NOT an entry-level position, a fun little frolic for someone who is otherwise bored at a show or for someone who has camera and can point it in the general direction of a horse.

    Carol
    People WANT the small resolution pictures to post on FB. The large 8x10's for prints? Not so much.

    The business model has changed and many of the 'Pro' Photographers, unlike you, don't seem to have grasped that point.

    Sorry but show photography isn't that hard. The equipment is much better and even the casual photographer can take a good shot.

    I shoot every one of my trainer's clients at every show I'm at. But I'm providing a viewpoint that the 'Pro' photographer can't. I start with the barn, then the schooling ring, then the class, then awards then back to the barn. The pics are emailed to the exhibitor that evening or sometimes late afternoon for their own use. I do not charge them and I do not post pics of their horses on FB. My own horses, yes, I post those on FB.

    Do I take away from your income? Probably. But on the other hand you aren't providing the same service.

    Although I have no doubt that this group of exhibitors ( myself included ) will buy from the 'Pro' if the shot is exceptional.

    Never had a problem with a 'Pro' photographer being upset. Most understand it's a public event and most have no intention of providing the same level of attention. They simply don't have time to do it. The Official show photographer has the right to set up shop at the show and sell pictures. I understand that I can't do that. But all other bets are off.
    Fan of Sea Accounts


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
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    Oct. 28, 2007
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    Pacific Northwest
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    633

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    oh, let's see, so you believe I can have my spouse take photos of me, but I cannot put them on facebook on my own page? Right!
    Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments



  8. #108
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    May. 21, 2008
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    95

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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    oh, let's see, so you believe I can have my spouse take photos of me, but I cannot put them on facebook on my own page? Right!
    Missing the point here. Yes, of course that is fine. No photog is going to have a problem of your husband or friend taking pics of you and you posting them on your facebook. If your husband (or friend, or in OPs case, trainer) were to stand by the ring, shoot every rider, go home and upload all the photos of all the competitors to Facebook with a note saying please help yourself to download these photos - then that is inappropriate.


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  9. #109
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    May. 6, 2004
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    Charlotte
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    1,568

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    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    People WANT the small resolution pictures to post on FB. The large 8x10's for prints? Not so much.

    The business model has changed and many of the 'Pro' Photographers, unlike you, don't seem to have grasped that point.

    Sorry but show photography isn't that hard. The equipment is much better and even the casual photographer can take a good shot.

    I shoot every one of my trainer's clients at every show I'm at. But I'm providing a viewpoint that the 'Pro' photographer can't. I start with the barn, then the schooling ring, then the class, then awards then back to the barn. The pics are emailed to the exhibitor that evening or sometimes late afternoon for their own use. I do not charge them and I do not post pics of their horses on FB. My own horses, yes, I post those on FB.

    Do I take away from your income? Probably. But on the other hand you aren't providing the same service.

    Although I have no doubt that this group of exhibitors ( myself included ) will buy from the 'Pro' if the shot is exceptional.

    Never had a problem with a 'Pro' photographer being upset. Most understand it's a public event and most have no intention of providing the same level of attention. They simply don't have time to do it. The Official show photographer has the right to set up shop at the show and sell pictures. I understand that I can't do that. But all other bets are off.
    Yes! I do the same thing for the people at my barn. Often times, what ends up happening is that there is either not a show photog or there is one who is not so good at shooting horse shows (we're talking local shows here). When there is a good photog, my friends will usually end up buying a "show" picture from them but still getting a CD of candids from me.
    "Life is too short to be a slave to the whims of others." -- RugBug, COTH



  10. #110
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    Nov. 4, 2012
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    57

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    A friend of mine mentioned this thread yesterday, so I thought I would add my 2 cents since I am an enthusiast and I do go to shows and take pictures for my own on-line gallery. I call the show offices ahead of time and get permission and I don't sell the photos. I will give them to some people in certain circumstances. I have worked 2 times for a pro, but mainly I take photos for fun.
    The main issue is not independent photographers who go to the shows and don't follow the etiquette as they should. The issue is that digital photography and the consumerizaton of the DSLR has changed the field of professional photography forever. The gear is no longer expensive or hard to get, and it requires minimal skill to operate and produce decent images. If you want to point blame here you need to contact Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Pentax... and others who are driving the consumer DSLR market with their cheap, easy-to-operate products. It's technology that has transformed things, no different really than what the Internet has done to the print media. It's a bad thing for the legacy film era pro photographers who are very skilled and experienced-but the technology is out there, it's only going to get less expensive and easier to use and it will continue to transform photography. The brightest people will hopefully develop new business models for commercial photography and things will continue to change.


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  11. #111
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Philadelphia PA
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    16,022

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    Quote Originally Posted by DR View Post
    A friend of mine mentioned this thread yesterday, so I thought I would add my 2 cents since I am an enthusiast and I do go to shows and take pictures for my own on-line gallery. I call the show offices ahead of time and get permission and I don't sell the photos. I will give them to some people in certain circumstances. I have worked 2 times for a pro, but mainly I take photos for fun.
    The main issue is not independent photographers who go to the shows and don't follow the etiquette as they should. The issue is that digital photography and the consumerizaton of the DSLR has changed the field of professional photography forever. The gear is no longer expensive or hard to get, and it requires minimal skill to operate and produce decent images. If you want to point blame here you need to contact Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Pentax... and others who are driving the consumer DSLR market with their cheap, easy-to-operate products. It's technology that has transformed things, no different really than what the Internet has done to the print media. It's a bad thing for the legacy film era pro photographers who are very skilled and experienced-but the technology is out there, it's only going to get less expensive and easier to use and it will continue to transform photography. The brightest people will hopefully develop new business models for commercial photography and things will continue to change.
    I agree... to a point. I agree that market has changed. I agree that cameras capable of taking quality images have become more accessible. What I don't agree with (and you haven't specifically articulated it so I am not suggesting you have) is that the photo that a good amateur takes can replace or equal taken one by a pro. There's just no comparison. When I think of the pro photos I mist cherish-- they are in a whole 'nother class and even the best ones taken by non-pros. The lighting, composition-- there's just no comparison.

    Maybe what needs to happen is a move to a model more like what seems to be happening with eventing/dressage. If you want photos, the show tells you ahead of time who the photographer is and you sign up. The photographer only shoots those who signed up. I don't mind being committed to buy if it's from a quality photographer who I know will get something (especially if the deposit can roll to the next show on the off chance my horse comes up lame or doesn't make it around and there are no photos). Maybe that model would reduce cost and effort? I don't know.

    I also agree that it might be time to rethink the pricing structure. Rather than price things out assuming the customer wants high quality prints-- make that an option but also make digital low quality images a selection as well. I think that's where the business has to evolve-- in what's being sold and at what price.

    But honestly, photography is an art and not a science. You and I can have the same camera and stand in the same spot and click at the same time-- and the photos will be night and day different. Those who do it well... it's an art form. And although I love (I do love love love) the shots my friends take-- they cannot compare to a really good pro. And I, for one, am happy to pay for what to me is the equivalent of a piece of art made just for me.

    Now... "pro" photographers who have no training, skills, or ability... that's a whole 'nother discussion. But I am assuming for the sake of argument that we're talking about skilled pros.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  12. #112
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    Nov. 4, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I agree... to a point. I agree that market has changed. I agree that cameras capable of taking quality images have become more accessible. What I don't agree with (and you haven't specifically articulated it so I am not suggesting you have) is that the photo that a good amateur takes can replace or equal taken one by a pro. There's just no comparison. When I think of the pro photos I mist cherish-- they are in a whole 'nother class and even the best ones taken by non-pros. The lighting, composition-- there's just no comparison.


    But honestly, photography is an art and not a science. You and I can have the same camera and stand in the same spot and click at the same time-- and the photos will be night and day different. Those who do it well... it's an art form. And although I love (I do love love love) the shots my friends take-- they cannot compare to a really good pro. And I, for one, am happy to pay for what to me is the equivalent of a piece of art made just for me.

    Now... "pro" photographers who have no training, skills, or ability... that's a whole 'nother discussion. But I am assuming for the sake of argument that we're talking about skilled pros.
    Well, you make a very good point and I certainly don't disagree that someone who understands exposure, light, timing, distance, DOF...etc is going to take higher quality images right out of the camera. But tools like in and out-of-camera image processing, continuous drive; which is the bursting of many frames per second, and other tools level the playing field for schmucks like me. The technology can actually make a huge difference. If you visit the photography forums you will see stunning galleries put up by people who do not just understand the art of capturing images; these people are masters of image processing. They are Photoshop Wizards. They completely embrace the technology of image processing (shamelessly) and do amazing things with it. Many of them are also highly technical folks. I am in IT and these people spin circles around me. They understand their devices completely; inside and out. They understand the technology really, really well.
    Anyway, my main point is that it is technology that has changed things for the traditional photography trade. It's not anybody's fault but the manufacturers who are driving the changes with their products.



  13. #113
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    Oct. 1, 2009
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    68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucassb View Post
    However, at a great majority of local shows, the pro photographer's work is, let's just say, not quite that level of quality. I love to have show photos of my horse, but for what the pro's (understandably) charge for a 4 x 6... I want something special. That means not just an in-focus shot at the correct point in the jump, but also really good composition, etc.
    I feel the same way. As a customer of horse show photogs I would rather have 2-3 to pick from and let the best man/woman win. If your pics suck - why am I stuck having to pay you for the only pic of my kid? However, I have heard of photographers being really nasty to each other over this "territory" battle. If your shots were good then you shouldn't be worried. I'd be more pissed about all the people posting my copied pic on Facebook that they didn't pay for that STILL has the watermark that says "This image STOLEN from ABC Photography" - completely boggles my mind.
    If I put as much effort into my relationship as I do charging my phone, I'd probably be much better off.



  14. #114
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    Mar. 16, 2000
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    Chatham, NY USA
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    Pine Tree SC - I am just now looking at this thread again.
    "Sorry but show photography isn't that hard. The equipment is much better and even the casual photographer can take a good shot."

    It's not the single picture - or even a few single pictures - that makes show photography harder than may meet the eye. It's taking hundreds of them, time after time, horse after horse, and getting them right. Most real pros do NOT use motordrive/burst - it eats batteries and cards. Speaking for myself, I never use it. I am a lifelong horseperson who has competed in - or at least studied - every discipline I shoot. So I know the right moment and I know that shooting upper level classes is very different than shooting beginners. When shooting Paso Finos or other gaited horses whose feet move faster than the speed of light, I know what the correct footfall is and the desired point for a picture, so I only show those.

    We also make a commitment to be there, rain or shine, hot or cold, dawn til dusk (or beyond). All of this goes into being an official photographer, and colors our attitude about poachers (those who sell) and others who give away copious numbers of pictures to the 30 folks from their barn.

    You, as customers, have every right to be underwhelmed by what we not-so-fondly call 'faux-tographers' - those who do not know horses OR their cameras, yet offer their burst-shot, good, bad, & ugly, hundreds of proofs for sale for next to nothing. But buying their cheap work is driving more and more experienced professionals away every day.
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


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  15. #115
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    Mar. 16, 2000
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    Chatham, NY USA
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    vxf111, I just read yours, too. "I also agree that it might be time to rethink the pricing structure. Rather than price things out assuming the customer wants high quality prints-- make that an option but also make digital low quality images a selection as well. I think that's where the business has to evolve-- in what's being sold and at what price."

    You are correct in differentiating between prints and digital images, and many of us are offering digital - either strictly for web use or in a format that the customer can have his/her own printed. But you say "digital low quality images" - and speaking only for myself, I do not and would not sell 'low quality'. The low-resolution images I offer for web use are just that - low resolution intended specifically for web. Pricing on these reflects the lack of printing costs and supplies (photo holders, labels, mailing envelopes), but the exact same amount of time and effort go into the processing of each of these as goes into preparing an image to send off to the printer. I would not sell a 'proof' - straight out of camera. Sometimes, those are just fine with cropping, but almost always when one is purchased, I do some additional work to it, whether it's straightening a horizon, adjusting the color, opening up a shadowed face, removing a distraction. So my time is basically the same as for a print - and the price, while lower than that for a print, is higher than you might want.
    www.ayliprod.com
    Equine Photography in the Northeast


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  16. #116
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    243

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoronios View Post
    Pine Tree SC - I am just now looking at this thread again.
    "Sorry but show photography isn't that hard. The equipment is much better and even the casual photographer can take a good shot."

    It's not the single picture - or even a few single pictures - that makes show photography harder than may meet the eye. It's taking hundreds of them, time after time, horse after horse, and getting them right. Most real pros do NOT use motordrive/burst - it eats batteries and cards. Speaking for myself, I never use it. I am a lifelong horseperson who has competed in - or at least studied - every discipline I shoot. So I know the right moment and I know that shooting upper level classes is very different than shooting beginners. When shooting Paso Finos or other gaited horses whose feet move faster than the speed of light, I know what the correct footfall is and the desired point for a picture, so I only show those.

    We also make a commitment to be there, rain or shine, hot or cold, dawn til dusk (or beyond). All of this goes into being an official photographer, and colors our attitude about poachers (those who sell) and others who give away copious numbers of pictures to the 30 folks from their barn.

    You, as customers, have every right to be underwhelmed by what we not-so-fondly call 'faux-tographers' - those who do not know horses OR their cameras, yet offer their burst-shot, good, bad, & ugly, hundreds of proofs for sale for next to nothing. But buying their cheap work is driving more and more experienced professionals away every day.
    This is a very odd post. (Besides reviving a dead thread LOL)

    What's up with the motor drive/burst stuff ?. Did some one mention that aspect?
    If so I apologize because I missed that post.
    That has nothing to do with my statement that equipment is much better today.

    Yes, I agree that competing in the discipline that you are shooting is a big help. But most of the non pros have an involvement with the sport. That's why they are taking pictures. And I'm not sure why you would think that non pros only shoot beginners. Where did that come from?

    I tried on an earlier thread to make it clear that the service the non pro can offer to their fellow boarders or fellow clients is not a service that most Show Photographers offer. We can start from the barn, to the schooling ring, the class, awards and back to the barn. Are you providing a similar service?
    I'd guess not. And I'm sure that you understand that this type of an arrangement does not prevent exhibitors from buying from a pro. If you take an exceprional shot they will buy from you, if not oh well, they won't buy.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



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