The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 56
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,872

    Default Bad form or being conservative?

    I find myself buffled and to be honest troubled by this scenario so I am here, instead of working, posting to see what other posters think...

    Let me first pre-phase that I understand it is perfectly legal. That is not the problem. What I am trying to gather is, whether it is something you in your good moral standard will do....

    Say, last year (2011), one pair had a successful year showing First Level (winning, though the scores are unknown to me) (edit: winning at various rated shows in their country, but not National held in US).

    This year (2012), the same pair also had a successful year showing First Level and Second Level. The pair won quite a few at First Level and at least one Second Level score was 63% and above.

    So to me this pair is becoming solid on Second and First Level is no more challenge for the horse this show season.

    Will you, then, after getting 70% and above at rated show at First Level and respectful Second Level scores, attempt to show at Training Level at the National (breed show) just so you can collect one more National title?

    Please note that I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm a mere bystander. I know what I will and will not do, but I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious whether there are any motives other than another national title...
    Last edited by Gloria; Oct. 9, 2012 at 04:10 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2008
    Location
    Area IV
    Posts
    264

    Default

    Personally I would not show at Training if I have won at First and Second. But I have very little interest in winning ribbons just for the ribbons sake. A national title would be nice, but I would try to win it at First rather than Training.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2007
    Location
    Andover, MA
    Posts
    5,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eventerchick517 View Post
    Personally I would not show at Training if I have won at First and Second. But I have very little interest in winning ribbons just for the ribbons sake. A national title would be nice, but I would try to win it at First rather than Training.
    Agree 100%
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2010
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    5,635

    Default

    How do qualifications work? Was the horse only able to qualify in training? If so, makes sense that's where they competed. I know a lot of people compete at their two highest qualification levels, for example, at Arab sporthorse nationals.

    Without knowing the situation, I wouldn't judge. However, just from the way the OP described it I would question....
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct. 10, 2007
    Location
    down south
    Posts
    5,060

    Default

    Above, my question also. Some associations work differently
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    How do qualifications work? Was the horse only able to qualify in training? If so, makes sense that's where they competed. I know a lot of people compete at their two highest qualification levels, for example, at Arab sporthorse nationals.
    That pair is qualified to compete at both Training and First so they actually competed at both at National and winning both titles (70%+ for all scores). They did not enter 2nd level.
    Last edited by Gloria; Oct. 9, 2012 at 04:09 PM.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2000
    Location
    California
    Posts
    7,819

    Default

    I believe we have some very people on here who have done the same thing - buying an equine who has experience at a higher level (rider being an UL rider), and showing a couple levels below the equine's experience in order to win the championships. Poor form, I say.
    My Mustang Adventures - my blog!
    Yoga for Equestrians
    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran



  8. #8
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2006
    Location
    Nor Cal
    Posts
    1,938

    Default

    Im afraid I see it happening all to often--becomes even more noticeable at Championships. Ive also seen quite a number of
    fresh 'imports' competing at the lower levels who are quite obviously not in an appropriate frame for competing at Training-First but who win with scores exceeding 70%....sigh. If you are scoring 70% plus---don't ya think its time to move up?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    Normally I'm all for people who ride hard and train hard and pull up a great score like 70%+ at any level, but this pair really took me aback. I mean, what is the glory of getting your 2nd level horse win at training level? Scratching head...



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2006
    Posts
    1,034

    Default

    I have seen it over and over and over again in the breed organization that I am associated with. Don't like it. But it is legal. That organization used to have rules that you had to compete in the highest levels in which you qualified. Not true anymore.

    You just have to do what you can live with and let those who want to chase ribbons, chase ribbons.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2004
    Location
    Fleetwood, PA
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goodpony View Post
    Im afraid I see it happening all to often--becomes even more noticeable at Championships. Ive also seen quite a number of
    fresh 'imports' competing at the lower levels who are quite obviously not in an appropriate frame for competing at Training-First but who win with scores exceeding 70%....sigh. If you are scoring 70% plus---don't ya think its time to move up?
    I have no dog in this fight, but the standards are changing for the really nice rides at especially the lower levels. 70% is no longer good enough to come close to being at the top of the USDF standings at Training level. The current median score for the highest average is above 80% this year at Training. I think I saw that the First level preliminary score winner had a median of 76%.

    So I guess it is all what you (the individual) puts as their priority. People pay a lot of money to show, so some of them are saving their dollars until they can take out a horse and have it get 70%+ at a level vs 60% at the next level up. I personally do not have a problem with that, as it is there money and they can choose how to spend it.

    And anyway, even at GP, the winning scores in international competition are easily above 70% too.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2006
    Location
    Nor Cal
    Posts
    1,938

    Default

    The current median score for the highest average is above 80% this year at Training. I think I saw that the First level preliminary score winner had a median of 76%.
    Im sorry but THAT is ridiculous.....pfffffft. Might as well make Training Level a Career, Eh?



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 25, 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    883

    Default

    Sandbaggers! We have several fitting that description on the Arabian circuit! I think all they care about is a win picture with the rose garland


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2003
    Location
    Eastern Pacific coast
    Posts
    3,493

    Default

    LOL.. I thought the OP WAS talking about the Arabs !
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewood View Post
    I have no dog in this fight, but the standards are changing for the really nice rides at especially the lower levels. 70% is no longer good enough to come close to being at the top of the USDF standings at Training level. The current median score for the highest average is above 80% this year at Training. I think I saw that the First level preliminary score winner had a median of 76%.
    Edgewood, I have known some very nice horses and very competent riders getting, say, 70% at first level. They are truly working on First Level (showing 1st and schooling 2nd/3rd) and they nailed that test. With a bit fine tuning it is conceivable they will get high 70%. I say they deserve every bit of that win at First Level, fair and square.

    However, consider another scenario, where another horse whose current state is at, say, 3rd level (showing actively at 3rd level, schooling 4th), but drop to 1st level at Regional to win. Or in my example, where a horse confirmed at 2nd level or at least an easy walk on 1st level but drop to training to win. Do you still stand by your statement? Do you still think this is a "fair" win? I know it is "fair" in theory and laws as they aren't utilizing illegal methods, but is it really "fair" in a sport spirit?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    LOL.. I thought the OP WAS talking about the Arabs !
    Not Arabs, but another breed. I hesitate to say which breed show because it will be way too obvious which pair I am talking about. I'm trying to keep a bit, umm, anonymous here



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,536

    Default

    i have no dog in this fight because right now i am not showing accredited shows....

    however, just to give a couple examples: i was at a schooling show a couple weekends ago and there were a couple *fantastic* young horses there...... they showed T 1 & 2 i think because the horses are babies..... but they blew the socks off of all competition scoring in the high 70s....

    so what should these riders do? show the appropriate level for where their horses are, get the miles they need and have every right to get or instead show at a higher level just because they have innate talent coming out their wazoos? also fwiw they were ammies showing them....

    i think that you cant have it both ways - you either support qualifications - which also would entail forced moving up, or you dont - but it you dont how can you complain about where people "choose to spend their money"?



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,872

    Default

    MBM, no. You are really missing my point. Did you even read my, or anyone's posts? I'm not complaining about how people spend their money, nor do I believe in "forced" qualification on the level shown based on scores. That is not the point.

    In your example, a young horse lacking miles is appropriate at the low level to get experience. They showed at their appropriate level. They blow the competition away by winning fair and square.

    Just because a horse is talented does not automatically mean that said horse is an upper level horse, you know.

    That is NOT the scenario I'm talking about here: I'm talking about a horse clearly way above the level (remember I'm talking about a mature seasoned dressage horse) who purposely drops down to get ribbons.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2004
    Location
    Fleetwood, PA
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i have no dog in this fight because right now i am not showing accredited shows....

    however, just to give a couple examples: i was at a schooling show a couple weekends ago and there were a couple *fantastic* young horses there...... they showed T 1 & 2 i think because the horses are babies..... but they blew the socks off of all competition scoring in the high 70s....

    so what should these riders do? show the appropriate level for where their horses are, get the miles they need and have every right to get or instead show at a higher level just because they have innate talent coming out their wazoos? also fwiw they were ammies showing them....

    i think that you cant have it both ways - you either support qualifications - which also would entail forced moving up, or you dont - but it you dont how can you complain about where people "choose to spend their money"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    Edgewood, I have known some very nice horses and very competent riders getting, say, 70% at first level. They are truly working on First Level (showing 1st and schooling 2nd/3rd) and they nailed that test. With a bit fine tuning it is conceivable they will get high 70%. I say they deserve every bit of that win at First Level, fair and square.

    However, consider another scenario, where another horse whose current state is at, say, 3rd level (showing actively at 3rd level, schooling 4th), but drop to 1st level at Regional to win. Or in my example, where a horse confirmed at 2nd level or at least an easy walk on 1st level but drop to training to win. Do you still stand by your statement? Do you still think this is a "fair" win? I know it is "fair" in theory and laws as they aren't utilizing illegal methods, but is it really "fair" in a sport spirit?
    I think that mbm summarized it quite well. I guess you could put qualification limits that the horse could not have shown 2 levels above the current level with qualifying scores (eg, receiving 65% at 3rd and then dropping back to Training).

    But you do have to be careful, as there are some really fabulous young horses these days that can easily go out and pull in huge scores, even though they are green. So if you put rules in place, you have to make sure that they are not going to unfairly target some of these really nice young horses that need mileage. I personally know of a gelding who is 4 years old and has a median score of almost 75% at Training. He is showing the age appropriate class, and doing very well.

    And well, if it is within the rules, it is fair in my book. If you really feel strongly, maybe get a petition together and approach USDF (or whatever breed association you are talking about) about putting in rules about dropping down 2 (or however many) levels if you already got qualifying scores.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2006
    Location
    Nor Cal
    Posts
    1,938

    Default

    Ask yourself this question: If your median score is 80% (middle score of 8 to qualify--and you must be at least four to compete) are you not competing below your skill/ability level? Where is the the sportsmanship in that? Keeping in mind this is Training Level--not GP.



Similar Threads

  1. Is Obama more Conservative that Reagan?
    By Shermy in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: Sep. 5, 2012, 12:47 PM
  2. too conservative a trainer??
    By JumpergirlWI in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: Aug. 6, 2011, 11:27 AM
  3. Freaking conservative politicians!
    By sketcher in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: Feb. 15, 2010, 12:11 PM
  4. Hunter Form vs. Jumper Form
    By RockingN in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: May. 5, 2009, 03:31 PM
  5. what colors are conservative (EV 113.8)
    By ne900 in forum Eventing
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: Sep. 3, 2008, 12:42 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •