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  1. #121
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    Jul. 24, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyHalter View Post
    ... if the professionals were a great deal more professional and valued their clients instead of treating them like ATMs. Over the years I rode with several different high-level pros, including BNTs, and I find this an excellent way of describing the relationship:
    Treating the people who write you very large checks every month with obvious disdain is not good for business. And ultimately, not good for the industry.
    It seems to me that the obvious answer there is to avoid the pros who treat you like a paycheck. Now if I could just find a way to react to my horses in the same way (since they seem to think that all I am is a walking checkbook as well )

    I will admit that I'm slightly out of the loop since I haven't ridden with a pro in 10 years, but when I was part of a boarding facility you can bet that I wouldn't have stuck around where I wasn't appreciated. And there are a lot of trainers who *don't* treat you like an ATM. Heck, I work with a bunch of pros here and there who treat me like one of their own at horseshows despite the fact that they've never received a dollar from me.

    Either way, pros are not indistinguishable from horseshows.....one doesn't need to ride with a BNT or even a T so go to a show. Perhaps part of the frustration folks have with shows really comes down to a lackluster relationship with their trainer(s)?
    __________________________________
    Forever exiled in the NW.



  2. #122
    Join Date
    Apr. 27, 2007
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    zone 6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    Perhaps part of the frustration folks have with shows really comes down to a lackluster relationship with their trainer(s)?
    Perhaps!! That's a very good point too.... because it seems to me that the straw that broke the camels back for ME this summer was working with a "pro" (I do quotes, cuz I'm a pro too haha) to help with one of my horses, as I couldn't be there.... I don't by any means think they're all like that .... but it was disheartening.

    I don't mind getting whipped in the ring (jumpers are black and white scoring....you go clean, or you don't haha). I DO like having at least 15-20 riders so that if I DO win, I feel it was truly earned.

    I have to haul my horses just over FOUR HOURS to get to a schooling show.... that will end up NOT filling anything 3'6 or higher (need 3 horses).... that is disappointing to me. So I moved to A show No biggy (I get outta there for about 600-700 in entires/stalls/entire bill.... but I use every resource I have, including staying in my trailer "camping style" and using fairground showers haha...and thats NO money back, no nom. fees, etc).

    I live in cowboy country and am slowly working on introducing our area to the sport in hopes that maybe I could get a small schooling circuit started here.... it'll max at like 2', but hey, gotta start somewhere! Some may want to move forward, some may not. I can still go do my 1.20s on my own Life is changing for me (age maybe? haha) and I find I have different goals.... however, NOTHING will EVER replace jumping a large, square oxer on a horse I made



  3. #123
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    Aug. 16, 2012
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    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    It seems to me that the obvious answer there is to avoid the pros who treat you like a paycheck.

    Heck, I work with a bunch of pros here and there who treat me like one of their own at horseshows despite the fact that they've never received a dollar from me.
    How do you work with them if you don't pay them? Maybe you're a lucky one.

    Around here, with rare exception, either you with a schooling show trainer that can't get away with charging junk fees (and get commensurate training ability) or a bigger barn that bilks you for every penny.

    Some of the better examples:

    Lessons at a horse show are included unless before 10am. Before 10am there is a "early lesson fee" of around $30. Lessons after 10 are not offered.

    $30-$40 per client per show charges for T bringing their UTV/golf cart, etc.

    T brings giant 5th wheel to all local multi-day shows, despite being 20 minutes from home. Clients pay for the hauling it there, RV spot, meals, etc.

    Horses required to be at show Monday for show that starts Thurs. Clients charged day fees even though horses are not touched by T, but only by grooms for lunging.

    T insists on being paid for grooms, $60/day. Grooms paid $50/day. Client gives tips.

    The list goes on... and you haven't even paid for one class yet. Is it any wonder fewer people can afford to show and shows are getting smaller?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
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    Apr. 27, 2007
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    zone 6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misanthrope View Post
    How do you work with them if you don't pay them? Maybe you're a lucky one.
    They're out there. When I show at a particular A show in CO, a trainer comes out from TX and she won't take a DIME from me, but sets fences, gives AMAZING feedback and gives me 100% of her attention. I make sure to buy her dinner at least ... and I help her hold horses if I'm free, etc.

    I've run into several like that. I've also run into plenty who take their 50-75 bucks per 5 minute fence setting session, only to disappear the rest of the day haha. Just have to position yourself around the right people.



  5. #125
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    Aug. 16, 2012
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    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl View Post
    I live in cowboy country and am slowly working on introducing our area to the sport in hopes that maybe I could get a small schooling circuit started here.... it'll max at like 2', but hey, gotta start somewhere! Some may want to move forward, some may not. I can still go do my 1.20s on my own Life is changing for me (age maybe? haha) and I find I have different goals.... however, NOTHING will EVER replace jumping a large, square oxer on a horse I made
    Good for you! There must be some way of enticing people who would normally show at A level to attend the smaller shows, rather than have them leave the sport.

    The BNTs will always find new cash cows, so we won't see them changing anything. But maybe some of the younger, but skilled, trainers will go in this direction?



  6. #126
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    Apr. 27, 2007
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    I figure I'm just not "big enough" (or live anywhere near civilization haha!) to end up as an A circuit trainer, but I DO make my big jumpers on my own. Why not share that with people who otherwise would NEVER see the sport. I've had a couple kids who work off lessons and get to ride my good horses... they usually fizzle out though.
    The problem (here) is that most people are impatient and don't 'get' why they don't get to jump in the first lesson.... flatwork is so borrrrring, we just wanna jump something. I think a lot has to do with ranch kids (I'm one!) being overly brave, so it's more fun to jump right in there instead of learning basics first. So, quite a few are interested but don't stick around. It's a tough balance, thats for sure!



  7. #127
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    Aug. 16, 2012
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    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellidahorsegirl View Post
    The problem (here) is that most people are impatient and don't 'get' why they don't get to jump in the first lesson.... flatwork is so borrrrring, we just wanna jump something. I think a lot has to do with ranch kids (I'm one!) being overly brave, so it's more fun to jump right in there instead of learning basics first.
    I've seen plenty of those kids come and go. Maybe it is the nature of ranch kids where you are, but here it is mostly BIGS. Bratty Instant Gratification Syndrome.

    Luckily for them, there is a trainer right down the road who will happily let them get left over a jump and rip her ponies mouths off right away.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    There is a huge difference between being made to feel like an ATM and receiving value for services you paid for. Just because you pay for said services does not mean you are just an ATM unless they treat you like one and do not deliver the service. Then that's their problem and you leave.

    We throw alot of "unprofessionalism" at trainers on here. Sometimes it's clients who drop the ball by not communicating and/or thinking a business relationship is a BFF on both sides. Or staying where they are really not happy because they "can't leave", "it's close to home" or there is "no place else to go".

    I have been exactly one place where there really was "no place else to go". I changed disciplines to fit what was available and had just as much fun with that (and spent about as much on it).

    There are always alternatives even if they are not exactly what you dreamed of. You just make them work.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #129
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    Aug. 16, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    There is a huge difference between being made to feel like an ATM and receiving value for services you paid for. Just because you pay for said services does not mean you are just an ATM unless they treat you like one and do not deliver the service. Then that's their problem and you leave.

    We throw alot of "unprofessionalism" at trainers on here. Sometimes it's clients who drop the ball by not communicating and/or thinking a business relationship is a BFF on both sides. Or staying where they are really not happy because they "can't leave", "it's close to home" or there is "no place else to go".

    I have been exactly one place where there really was "no place else to go". I changed disciplines to fit what was available and had just as much fun with that (and spent about as much on it).

    There are always alternatives even if they are not exactly what you dreamed of. You just make them work.
    Yes it's a symbiotic relationship, there would be no trainers
    making ATMs out of people, if people would refuse to be ATMs.

    Clients are to blame, but also consider that when you do ask questions or leave a barn for these reasons, you are fast on your way to becoming a pariah of your local horse world. I left a BNT with guns blazing after finding "show meds" on my bill. I was willing to leave the sport to stand up for what I believed in.



  10. #130
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Western WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    We throw alot of "unprofessionalism" at trainers on here. Sometimes it's clients who drop the ball by not communicating and/or thinking a business relationship is a BFF on both sides..
    Amen. Trainers put up with a lot. I've watched more professional people act like complete *%^&@^ where there horse is involved. Behavior that they wouldn't put up with if it were directed at them in their professional life. So the coin definately flips both ways on that score.



  11. #131
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Western WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    I will admit that I'm slightly out of the loop since I haven't ridden with a pro in 10 years, but when I was part of a boarding facility you can bet that I wouldn't have stuck around where I wasn't appreciated. And there are a lot of trainers who *don't* treat you like an ATM. Heck, I work with a bunch of pros here and there who treat me like one of their own at horseshows despite the fact that they've never received a dollar from me.
    )?
    We do have some really good people around here.

    By the way, I remember your horse 'Fortune Hunter'. That's going back a ways. :grins:

    And I forgot about Donida and Cle Elum. I guess I don't see them as B or C shows. I just view them as affordable A shows since most of the same people go to them. To me, Briddle Trails is the small shows that we lack more of. One day shows with good courses and a large turnout.



  12. #132
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    Aug. 5, 2003
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    I forgot how much that $50.00 5-10 min ringside coaching fee (and then vanished down a rabbit hole) gives me heartburn. Hate it.



  13. #133
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Western WA
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    As in everything, there are good people and bad people around. My issues with the costs of showing and how horse shows are run isn't caused by just one person. It isn't just the show manager, or just the trainer, or just the wealthy clients. It's a conglomeration of all kind of things that form the current business model.

    There are people here locally that I know are working hard to change things, but it's slow going. And the gap between those who do everything themselves, and those who have multiplie horses can be incredibly wide. It isn't surprising that sometimes people just burn out from trying and turn to something that is new and different. (Note I didn't say better - just different). A change of scenry can be all that is needed, like it is for me. I'm finding it completely refreshing to meet new people.

    I guess I'm just tired of watching it happen and need to take a step back, which I'm doing. Maybe it just comes with getting older.



  14. #134
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    Aug. 16, 2012
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    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
    Amen. Trainers put up with a lot. I've watched more professional people act like complete *%^&@^ where there horse is involved. Behavior that they wouldn't put up with if it were directed at them in their professional life. So the coin definately flips both ways on that score.
    True, the coin flips both ways. But the trainers who put up with it because those big checks continue to cash can thank themselves on this issue. Just like the clients who stay with unprofessional trainers.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
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    Jul. 24, 2006
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    Seattle, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
    By the way, I remember your horse 'Fortune Hunter'. That's going back a ways. :grins:
    Lol! That is going a ways back. He was truly one of my "horses of a lifetime" and the only major regret I have in the horse world is not getting a chance to retire him to my farm. So do I know you? (you can PM me if you want) We must have shown together back in the day of [more] affordable horseshows?
    __________________________________
    Forever exiled in the NW.



  16. #136
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Western WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    Lol! That is going a ways back. He was truly one of my "horses of a lifetime" and the only major regret I have in the horse world is not getting a chance to retire him to my farm. So do I know you? (you can PM me if you want) We must have shown together back in the day of [more] affordable horseshows?
    See PM!



  17. #137
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    Apr. 19, 2011
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misanthrope View Post
    How do you work with them if you don't pay them? Maybe you're a lucky one.

    Around here, with rare exception, either you with a schooling show trainer that can't get away with charging junk fees (and get commensurate training ability) or a bigger barn that bilks you for every penny.

    Some of the better examples:

    Lessons at a horse show are included unless before 10am. Before 10am there is a "early lesson fee" of around $30. Lessons after 10 are not offered.

    $30-$40 per client per show charges for T bringing their UTV/golf cart, etc.

    T brings giant 5th wheel to all local multi-day shows, despite being 20 minutes from home. Clients pay for the hauling it there, RV spot, meals, etc.

    Horses required to be at show Monday for show that starts Thurs. Clients charged day fees even though horses are not touched by T, but only by grooms for lunging.

    T insists on being paid for grooms, $60/day. Grooms paid $50/day. Client gives tips.

    The list goes on... and you haven't even paid for one class yet. Is it any wonder fewer people can afford to show and shows are getting smaller?
    Oh, man, it's a good thing that I likely will never have the funds to board with a BNT, because that sort of crap would make me CRAY-ZEE! How do people put up with it??? Total BS! My mother always says rich people are rich because they don't spend their money, but in this case it sounds like there's a lot of spending going on without too much scrutiny.

    This reminds me of my bank's wonderful junk fees. "Client as ATM" hits it right on the nose.



  18. #138
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Western WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiderWriter View Post
    Oh, man, it's a good thing that I likely will never have the funds to board with a BNT, because that sort of crap would make me CRAY-ZEE! How do people put up with it??? Total BS! My mother always says rich people are rich because they don't spend their money, but in this case it sounds like there's a lot of spending going on without too much scrutiny.

    This reminds me of my bank's wonderful junk fees. "Client as ATM" hits it right on the nose.
    And that is why a lot of people are literally priced out.



  19. #139
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    Jan. 23, 2000
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    Virginia
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    Perhaps part of the frustration folks have with shows really comes down to a lackluster relationship with their trainer(s)?
    For me, that's just not the case, and I get the OP's (and everyone else's) frustration completely. My trainer is simply fabulous. She's allowed us to be haul in clients, has tried to work within our budget absolutely as much as possible, and the value in the work she does is unbeatable. She's been worth every penny.


    I have to haul my horses just over FOUR HOURS to get to a schooling show.... that will end up NOT filling anything 3'6 or higher (need 3 horses).... that is disappointing to me. So I moved to A show No biggy (I get outta there for about 600-700 in entires/stalls/entire bill.... but I use every resource I have, including staying in my trailer "camping style" and using fairground showers haha...and thats NO money back, no nom. fees, etc).
    I make more money (with no dependents) than a majority of families in this country and I'm still nonetheless priced out of the "A" circuit, for the most part. It's simply SO incredibly expensive. As a special treat, OK. But not as something I can regularly spend money on. Spending $600-700 on any regular basis is out of the question.

    And I hear you - I was going to every schooling show and hoping the 3'6" would fill. And I was very pleased when it actually DID start filling in the last few years.

    But it does lead me to ask how many people we're keeping out of the sport. And if the sport will, over the long haul, be able to handle lower attendance numbers as are more people are priced out. Never mind what this will do to our talent pool for future teams, etc.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  20. #140
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2009
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    Wisconsin
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    Next year when I have a few of my more solid horses going I have a feeling at our B shows , since I can't afford A shows, I will have to just enter my personal horse and my two lesson horses just to be able to have them run the 3'6 modified jumper. It seems the largest class is the 2'6-2'9 and the 3ft classes. Not many entries over that.

    But I can understand the burnout. I went to a Hunter Pace for fun, and I have to admit. If there were more in our area I probably wouldn't do anything else!



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