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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    But I'm not seeing the head constrictions on the hunters or the jumpers. Why on equitation horses? Why would they be trained to jump like this, since it's clearly very unnatural.
    They aren't trained to jump like this, they just DO. Their heads aren't constricted. Look at the photos, no one is restricted in the mouth. Not one.

    Look at Chris Mcrea and Romantovich who anchored our Pan Am team. He jumps every fence high-headed and flat-backed. Not much release required, and he is clearly not restricted jumping a foot over the top of FEI heights.
    http://sidelinesnews.com/blogs/showw...christine1.jpg

    There are plenty of horses that jump flat with little change in their head/neck position. 3'6 is small to them and they politely step over it. As the fences get bigger (i.e jr/ao jumper level) they may use their body more, hence the releases you see. But at 3'6, not necessary.

    I owned one like this. It was just how he jumped, and no amount of gymnastics or generous releases changed that. I sold him for some nice $$$$ as an eq horse.

    You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    Considering these horses are easily jumping very big, very technical courses with ease, I don't think they 'need' to stretch their necks down, regardless of whether you think it looks 'wrong'. And it's not modern horses, it's modern eq horses. They are bred, selected, and trained to have flat jumps

    Look at how well Lillie Keenan adjusts her riding between the three rings. The release and her position is so different, depending on the course, the horse, and the ring.

    Here's Lillie Keenan riding hunters
    http://www.othfarm.com/news/?id=156
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw...fq8vo1_500.png
    http://hitsshows.com/images/2011/600...tial_jump1.jpg

    And riding jumpers
    http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-...enan005965.jpg
    http://www.usefnetwork.com/images/ar...25/keenanz.jpg
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmi-niche/as...jpg?1314214971
    Perfect... Big Grey stated and proved exactly what I wanted to. The same goes for Tori. There is a reason that girl often beats the pros, sometimes her own trainer, in a hunter derby. She doesn't do that with stingy releases. These girls show in all three rings, all day long, and know which release is suited for the job. That is exactly what GM himself, teaches. Not long crest release all day just because it is pretty.



  3. #83
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    While I don't mind Lillie in the eq photo, have to say I love her position in the photo on the grey! That's what I picture when I think of proper equitation.

    Wonder how the new style got started?



  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janeway View Post
    While I don't mind Lillie in the eq photo, have to say I love her position in the photo on the grey! That's what I picture when I think of proper equitation.

    Wonder how the new style got started?

    Me too, the really dapply one.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
    Look at how well Lillie Keenan adjusts her riding between the three rings. The release and her position is so different, depending on the course, the horse, and the ring.

    Here's Lillie Keenan riding hunters
    http://www.othfarm.com/news/?id=156
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw...fq8vo1_500.png
    http://hitsshows.com/images/2011/600...tial_jump1.jpg

    And riding jumpers
    http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-...enan005965.jpg
    http://www.usefnetwork.com/images/ar...25/keenanz.jpg
    http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmi-niche/as...jpg?1314214971
    Clearly, all those people who were shredding her abilities as a pony rider on that thread years ago knew exactly what they were talking about-that still cracks me up.



  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    She is, without doubt a lovely rider who can do whatever the course and horse need. But I'm not seeing the head constrictions on the hunters or the jumpers. Why on equitation horses? Why would they be trained to jump like this, since it's clearly very unnatural. The jumpers have to be able to shorten, lengthen, and turn sharply and they do it with heads that aren't into their chests. In a way, it sort of reminds me of rollkur for dressage horses, who are so trained into their frame that they have lost the will to go in any other frame. Most of them can't even do a decent extended walk.

    It all has to do with submission, as a horse on close contact loses a good part of his vision.

    I'd also point out that 90% or more of the Big Equitation horses are imported WBs, and I'd almost bet the farm that no European WB breeder would ever breed for that jump. These horses are probably culls from breeding for the Olympic disciplines.
    I strongly suggest that you go to a real live horse show and watch some of this in person, rather than continue to base your opinions on still photographs.

    Equitation horses, like jumpers, have to be able to shorten, lengthen, and turn sharply; however, unlike jumpers, they have to maintain an even pace throughout the entire course, get every lead change, and avoid at all costs anything remotely resembling an "oh Jesus that was a scary spot we just left from how the hell did we not have a rail" moment. Equitation horses are not trained to jump flat; horses that naturally jump flat and therefore can't cut it in the hunters, and aren't fast or scopey enough to cut it in the jumpers, are potential candidates for the equitation ring. No rider wants to enter the ring in an equitation class on a back-cracking horse.

    I'm not sure why you still don't understand this, as I know it's been explained to you many times over the years. This is why I think it would benefit you to go to an actual horse show and see how this all works in real life. None of the equitation horses I've ever seen go around the courses with their heads to their chests, and I've seen plenty over the years.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    I strongly suggest that you go to a real live horse show and watch some of this in person, rather than continue to base your opinions on still photographs.

    Equitation horses, like jumpers, have to be able to shorten, lengthen, and turn sharply; however, unlike jumpers, they have to maintain an even pace throughout the entire course, get every lead change, and avoid at all costs anything remotely resembling an "oh Jesus that was a scary spot we just left from how the hell did we not have a rail" moment. Equitation horses are not trained to jump flat; horses that naturally jump flat and therefore can't cut it in the hunters, and aren't fast or scopey enough to cut it in the jumpers, are potential candidates for the equitation ring. No rider wants to enter the ring in an equitation class on a back-cracking horse.

    I'm not sure why you still don't understand this, as I know it's been explained to you many times over the years. This is why I think it would benefit you to go to an actual horse show and see how this all works in real life. None of the equitation horses I've ever seen go around the courses with their heads to their chests, and I've seen plenty over the years.
    I agree with you in general-- equitation horses do a different job and jump/go differently than hunters and jumpers. Watching them at a show will make that difference abundantly clear.

    But I'll diverge and say it's a mix of nature and nurture. A horse with a lot of scope, the right personality/trainability, and a flatter jumping style is better suited for the eq and may be pointed that way. No one is looking for a horse that jumps like Rox Dene in an eq horse. But I think training plays a role too. When you look at how an eq horse is trained and how a hunter is trained, you see major differences that in part account for the differences in way of going. A good pro is trying to teach a green hunter to jump up and round. That's not part of the training for a future eq horse. Even the pre-ring time prep is different, the focus is not on the bascule. And the jumps in the show ring lend themselves to different jumping efforts too. Look at what the eq horses jump-- a lot of upright, jumper looking jumps that encourage a flatter effort. Not the pushed-out-groundline thick with fill oxer oxer oxer that hunters jump-- which encourages bascule. The courses help create the jump you see you. All the turning and adjusting and just TESTING in the eq courses encourages the horse to jump flatter... he's not being ridden to the base and up and over for 8 identical efforts the way he is in the hunters, he's being asked things all along the way and sometimes has to come to fences short/long/on an angle/turn in the air etc. That will naturally flatten the bascule a bit. Not to mention, a good eq horse is not at all scoped at 3'6 and has no incentive to jump up and round.

    I think some eq horses have it in them to jump in more hunter style. In fact, several of the current derby horses are eq horses and are doing well, jumping in hunter style. So I'm not willing to say it's all nature.

    But I am completely in agreement that these are horses doing different jobs, and the way of going reflects that. I also don't 100% agree that it's sort of washed up jumpers and hunter in the eq ranks. I think a lot of these horses have the capability to do a different job but they've just been pointed in this direction. Nature plays some part in how eq horses go 9and what horses end up as eq horses) but I think a lot of what you see is very deliberate training and is moreover reinforced/encouraged by the sorts of courses these horses jump.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  8. #88
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    To go along with the training aspects, the head carriage over jumps in all of the disciplines almost has to be the result of training or lack of training. If you have ever seen young, unmounted and unstarted horses in a jump chute over a 3'6" fence, I would venture to say that not one of them did not use the head (and neck) to stretch with. Now I will admit that still photos taken at the top of the jump will not show how the horse uses itself in takeoff but they often show preparation for landing. I can't ever recall seeing a horse landing from jump where the head is not significantly raised with nose outstretched for balance.

    It is perfectly possible to teach a horse to go in a frame even when the rider is not asking for it specifically. Draw reins do that. Lunging in draw reins does that. So do a lot of other training gadgets that focus on head carriage, and there are A LOT of them.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    To go along with the training aspects, the head carriage over jumps in all of the disciplines almost has to be the result of training or lack of training. If you have ever seen young, unmounted and unstarted horses in a jump chute over a 3'6" fence, I would venture to say that not one of them did not use the head (and neck) to stretch with. Now I will admit that still photos taken at the top of the jump will not show how the horse uses itself in takeoff but they often show preparation for landing. I can't ever recall seeing a horse landing from jump where the head is not significantly raised with nose outstretched for balance.

    It is perfectly possible to teach a horse to go in a frame even when the rider is not asking for it specifically. Draw reins do that. Lunging in draw reins does that. So do a lot of other training gadgets that focus on head carriage, and there are A LOT of them.
    Again, you really need to try watching videos. The riders give the horses plenty of room to lift their head as they land. The horses are not being restricted. Look at the photos, the contact is short, but it is soft and unrestrictive.



  10. #90
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    The riders are riding the horses that have been specially trained for that discipline. I'm certainly not saying that the horses are being cranked in to jump because all the videos that I've been watching, and I've been watching more than just few, show that isn't the case. But the horses' heads rarely move from a certain fixed position. That, I think, is the result of training which most of these young riders have very little to do with. I noticed that even on loose reins at the end of the round, the horses never stuck their noses out.

    I'm reminded of an h/j trainer who was here for a bit and taught Big Equitation. She didn't like the head carriage on some Connemara ponies that she had bought, and she, like many Western Pleasure trainers, tied the horses' heads with straps to a surcingle all the time the horse was in the stall. After a week or so of that, the horse always kept the head in that position no matter what it was doing. This trainer came from Florida, and I'm quite sure she didn't invent that technique for a quick and permanent fix.

    What you see at a horse show is the result of a lot of unseen training for both horse and rider.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  11. #91
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    Actually, never heard of that technique. Sounds like another moronic shortcut by someone who instead of finding horses suitable for the job tried to turn a few horses into something they weren't.

    If every horse that jumps with a flatter top line was "trained" to be that way, I'd love to hear your explanation for the many top top Grand Prix horses with, well, interesting jumping techniques. They weren't bullied or restricted into jumping that way - that's just how they jump.

    You have been blessed if every horse you know has a lovely, natural bascule. Trust me, they don't. My sister has a mare she's had since she was 3. Someone else put 30 days on her - the rest of the training has been done by myself or my sister. Man, we'd love it if she'd stop jumping like a damn hurdle horse - this mare naturally jumps totally flat across the jumps, carrying her head just like you see those eq horses. No matter how many exercises we've done, she's never going to jump with any roundness. And, it also doesn't matter how big the jumps are - she just jumps higher over them and gets her legs up higher. You can throw the reins away - she couldn't care less. Unfortunately, for us hunter people, that just doesn't work and it looks like my sister may be heading to jumper land with her.

    Anyway - my point is - horses' jumping styles come in many, many varies forms. I'd love it if everything jumped with a natural inclination to roundness. Fact of the matter is, they don't.



  12. #92
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    I understand the "hostility" perfectly.
    ---
    They're small hearts.



  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    The riders are riding the horses that have been specially trained for that discipline. I'm certainly not saying that the horses are being cranked in to jump because all the videos that I've been watching, and I've been watching more than just few, show that isn't the case. But the horses' heads rarely move from a certain fixed position. That, I think, is the result of training which most of these young riders have very little to do with. I noticed that even on loose reins at the end of the round, the horses never stuck their noses out.

    I'm reminded of an h/j trainer who was here for a bit and taught Big Equitation. She didn't like the head carriage on some Connemara ponies that she had bought, and she, like many Western Pleasure trainers, tied the horses' heads with straps to a surcingle all the time the horse was in the stall. After a week or so of that, the horse always kept the head in that position no matter what it was doing. This trainer came from Florida, and I'm quite sure she didn't invent that technique for a quick and permanent fix.

    What you see at a horse show is the result of a lot of unseen training for both horse and rider.
    I'd be curious to know who this person is and if they truly are a bnt. Just because they are from Florida doesn't mean they are any good. Most top eq horses I know jump naturally flat (and can take a joke). I agree that some young riders get nervous at indoors and grab instead of releasing but the top kids are performing at the tip top.



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    I understand the "hostility" perfectly.
    I'm starting to understand it a bit more too.

    Seems no amount of patient explaining or teaching is going to get through on that one.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."



  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long Spot View Post
    I'm starting to understand it a bit more too.

    Seems no amount of patient explaining or teaching is going to get through on that one.



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    When you look at how an eq horse is trained and how a hunter is trained, you see major differences that in part account for the differences in way of going. A good pro is trying to teach a green hunter to jump up and round. That's not part of the training for a future eq horse. Even the pre-ring time prep is different, the focus is not on the bascule. And the jumps in the show ring lend themselves to different jumping efforts too. Look at what the eq horses jump-- a lot of upright, jumper looking jumps that encourage a flatter effort. Not the pushed-out-groundline thick with fill oxer oxer oxer that hunters jump-- which encourages bascule. The courses help create the jump you see you. All the turning and adjusting and just TESTING in the eq courses encourages the horse to jump flatter... he's not being ridden to the base and up and over for 8 identical efforts the way he is in the hunters, he's being asked things all along the way and sometimes has to come to fences short/long/on an angle/turn in the air etc. That will naturally flatten the bascule a bit. Not to mention, a good eq horse is not at all scoped at 3'6 and has no incentive to jump up and round.

    I think some eq horses have it in them to jump in more hunter style. In fact, several of the current derby horses are eq horses and are doing well, jumping in hunter style. So I'm not willing to say it's all nature.

    But I am completely in agreement that these are horses doing different jobs, and the way of going reflects that. I also don't 100% agree that it's sort of washed up jumpers and hunter in the eq ranks. I think a lot of these horses have the capability to do a different job but they've just been pointed in this direction. Nature plays some part in how eq horses go 9and what horses end up as eq horses) but I think a lot of what you see is very deliberate training and is moreover reinforced/encouraged by the sorts of courses these horses jump.
    Well, I've never ridden in a BNT barn with top equitation horses/riders, top jumpers/top hunters (I did show in the pony hunters at the A show level as a junior, but that was a very different time), and based on your post above, it seems that you have, so I can't argue with you here.

    What I do know is that no one can train the round jump that is needed to win at the top in the hunters in a horse that just doesn't have it, and that no one in his right mind is going to take a horse that does naturally have that jump and make any attempt to train that out of it in an effort to make an equitation horse.

    The jumpers/equitation horses that were winning the Hunter Derby classes at the beginning have largely stopped entering, and it has truly become a contest of the best of the hunters. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    The top trainers/riders are at the top because they excel at quickly recognizing which niche each horse that arrives at their barn will fit into the best. None of them will make any money trying to re-train a horse to do something it doesn't do naturally, and the reason they are at the top of their profession is because they recognize this.



  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    The jumpers/equitation horses that were winning the Hunter Derby classes at the beginning have largely stopped entering, and it has truly become a contest of the best of the hunters. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    C Coast Z was originally an equitation horse for Lillie. And I think hes, meh... he's an okkkkkkkkkkkkkay derby horse
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  18. #98
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    When the derbies started, the equitation horses and jumpers were the ones who were more conditioned to turn and jump whatever they were pointed at, so they were often pretty successful. As handy classes were included in all A divisions and derbies caught on and popped up all over the place, the hunters closed the gap quite a bit.

    Some of the equitation horses and jumpers can still hold their own in the derbies based on their jumping style and attitude.

    What's the name of the McCormacks' chestnut horse who (I think) won the equitation finals at least once or twice, and still gets a good piece of pretty much any hunter derby he does? Sundance, I think?
    Last edited by MHM; Oct. 6, 2012 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Typo



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    C Coast Z was originally an equitation horse for Lillie. And I think hes, meh... he's an okkkkkkkkkkkkkay derby horse
    And her current eq horse, Monterrey, was 6th in the derby finals this year. (The horse she won Maclay Regionals on.)



  20. #100
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    I used the word "largely" because I'm aware that there are exceptions. My point is that the Hunter Derby classes are not flooded with jumpers and equitation horses. Here are this year's current standings:


    1 JERSEY BOY / S B S FARM - NY 49700 (5 comps)
    2 BRUNELLO / PETERSON, JANET - SC 24500 (4 comps)
    3 TAKEN / STITT, JESSICA - IL 24200 (10 comps)
    4 INCLUSIVE / PARKER, BETSEE - VA 23500 (3 comps)
    5 CLEARLY / ROBERTS, LINDSEY - TX 21200 (7 comps)
    6 MONTERREY / CHANSONETTE FARM LLC - NY 20100 (3 comps)
    7 MISS LUCY / LENAHAN, HELEN - NY 19500 (5 comps)
    8 KENNZO / ABBATIELLO-NEFF, KRISTEN - CT 19400 (3 comps)
    9 BASES LOADED / AM FREE, INC - FL 17150 (7 comps)
    10 C. QUITO / SNOWDON, MARGOT - WY

    I don't think C Coast Z worked out very well as an equitation horse and he was switched entirely to the hunters.



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