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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    IMHO any dog, even a mutt, who is overfed and under exercised is liable to have health issues.
    Don't be disingenuous, no one is talking about overfed and under exercised dogs here, but about extremes of species specific traits, that are considered handicaps, but that we choose for our own purposes.

    Look, I have been training dogs for over 40 years in first obedience and then agility and I know the problems some of what we breed in different dogs bring and how to work around them.
    If that is what some like in their dogs, I am not to say what is right, as long as, whatever dogs they have, they do take good care of them.

    Now, any dog of any kind, or horses here, if it is abused, then all bets are off, that is why we have laws and regulations against that.



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    False logic there, as so many falsely accused can attest to a need for defense.

    All of us have to defend what we believe in, that is how we come to agreements about what is acceptable or not to the situation at hand.
    Culture play an important role in what is acceptable also.
    Some cultures accept human and animal abuses that others would not.
    I expect I don't have to give you any examples of that, do I?

    Yes, I was puzzled and didn't like it at all when I saw my first three/five gaited horses prancing around on those wooden shoes, tails in harnesses and learned the little I did about their uses and training.

    Coming from a different culture without any such, well, it seemed very absurd.
    It still does today, most those gaited horses still seem crippled to me, but I have learned there is much others do that I don't like, but it is not my place to tell them what to like.

    If someone can show true abuse, not animal rights extremists driven propaganda to make any we do with our animals abuse, then that is grounds to call for stopping abuses.

    If others can do that without real abuse, well, then I don't think it is my place to tell them what to do and don't like others coming to tell me I or anyone they don't agree with are "defective" because they don't agree with them.
    That just shows me that person is after their personal agenda, going overboard and becoming insulting, with lack of common sense.
    You're using the grey area as your defense. Is screaming at a child "abuse"? We all know, as a society that it's wrong, and that it has consequences and is even, yes, cruel. Will they take a child away from someone for screaming at a child? Probably not. Is stacking a horse's feet and forcing it to lumber around like a giant sea creature wrong? As a society, we think it is. In your society (the "screamers") you don't think it's wrong because no one is able to take the horse away because of it. Lucky you.

    It's wrong because it's cruel and so much of it is done underground, out of sight to avoid scrutiny. It's cruel because the horse isn't better for it. BL'ers hide it because they KNOW no one but them, wants to see their freakish, abnormal fetish. Calling it a culture doesn't negate responsibility from humanity....so what if it's a "culture" - so was the mob, and street gangs. So is violent hazing on some college campuses. The culture of of the south once included keeping slaves - but thank goodness we move on and evolve as a humanity and rewrite culture all of the time when we become more wise.

    It's time for BL'ers to catch up with the modern era of humanity. You can't hold on to the days gone by when your sport was considered acceptable. Let it go. Evolve.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    You're using the grey area as your defense. Is screaming at a child "abuse"? We all know, as a society that it's wrong, and that it has consequences and is even, yes, cruel. Will they take a child away from someone for screaming at a child? Probably not. Is stacking a horse's feet and forcing it to lumber around like a giant sea creature wrong? As a society, we think it is. In your society (the "screamers") you don't think it's wrong because no one is able to take the horse away because of it. Lucky you.

    It's wrong because it's cruel and so much of it is done underground, out of sight to avoid scrutiny. It's cruel because the horse isn't better for it. BL'ers hide it because they KNOW no one but them, wants to see their freakish, abnormal fetish. Calling it a culture doesn't negate responsibility from humanity....so what if it's a "culture" - so was the mob, and street gangs. So is violent hazing on some college campuses. The culture of of the south once included keeping slaves - but thank goodness we move on and evolve as a humanity and rewrite culture all of the time when we become more wise.

    It's time for BL'ers to catch up with the modern era of humanity. You can't hold on to the days gone by when your sport was considered acceptable. Let it go. Evolve.
    You may not see it, but that can be said of most anything we do.
    Here, we are discussing if some should be sent to jail for putting strange wooden shoes on some horses to make them walk funny.
    Remember, soring is already illegal and so punishable and those odd shoes are already regulated as what is acceptable.
    I think that is a bit different than stopping slavery.



  4. #64
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    Yes, but we eventually all start recognize the error of our ways, and it takes the majority to urge the stragglers. I used to knee my horses HARD in the gut while girthing. I had no clue it was wrong, and in fact everyone I knew did it. People still do it, but that doesn't mean it's not cruel because they haven't reached that level of enlightenment.



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Yes, but we eventually all start recognize the error of our ways, and it takes the majority to urge the stragglers. I used to knee my horses HARD in the gut while girthing. I had no clue it was wrong, and in fact everyone I knew did it. People still do it, but that doesn't mean it's not cruel because they haven't reached that level of enlightenment.
    I still don't understand why someone would do something stupid because "it is what all do", sorry.
    "Cruel"?
    By who's standards do you call what is cruel and what do you want to do about that?



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Justification is required when you need a defense - when you need a reason to prove what you are doing is okay. You wouldn't a defense if what you see as acceptable were normal. People who fight birds and dogs enjoy what they do too and will also try and defend their past time...it doesn't make it right because the rest of the world "misunderstands" what they do. Most of us can't understand a defective mind.

    Defending stacking pads on a horse by comparing it to other atrocities simply makes it more apparent that you are defective, and lack the ability to understand your own inhumanity.
    And name calling and insults is where we go when we lose the ability to speak civilly to one another.

    You're calling me defective?



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordial View Post
    Katerine, you might add that if you are at the quarter horse Congress in Col. Ohio...go watch the quater horses warm up in the outdoor arena. Look carefully you will see SCURF on the lower legs of the horses...not all, but some. Scurf=a result of the Fix on their pasterns! Don't tell me that isn't true...every year I go the Congress and every year the same thing. We are usually with a group of Walking horse people and we just look at each other in total disbelief!!
    The 'fix' you refer to is not the sole source of scurf on cannons and pasterns. Do you know that or are you being facetious?



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You make my point very well.

    You are used to seeing dwarf dogs and coping with their handicaps, those way too short legs and way too long backs.

    That is really not much different than horse with grotesque walks.

    All that is extremes we like in our animals and that is fine, for each one that likes those extremes.

    Look at the big picture, look at how those that don't like extremes see some dog breed characteristics, horse characteristics and understand why there is controversy and yes, a need to explain if not defend what we do and what we like and don't like and why.

    There is no sensible person that can say with a straight face dwarfed dogs are not without consequences from their very important differences from the norm.

    The same with putting stacks on a horse's feet to get certain grotesque actions and expect it not to have some consequences.

    To try to deny that is useless, anyone can show you why that is not ideal.

    Why not say, yes, there is no action without reaction, we like our little short legged, way too long backed dogs for optimal, heck, for normal dog function and can take the best care of them and think that is ok.

    I think the same with those that put pads on those horses.

    There are trade-offs to all we do in life and, just because someone else's trade-offs are not ours, that doesn't mean they are automatically bad, unless clearly so, like dog or rooster fighting and other such, that is clearly of no redeeming qualities, that is real abuse, as starving or beating them would be.

    People like hairless cats and dogs, dwarfs, extremes of gaits in horses and whatever else they like that is different, they always have.

    That is why we have those ongoing discussions about what is appropriate and what questionable and what clearly wrong.

    We can breed our animals, especially dogs seem to be very genetically malleable, to be and look so many different ways and that is ok for many, questionable when taken to extremes by others.

    The ones with those animals way different than the norm for their species are the ones that have to answer them for themselves and defend them from those that have questions.

    I don't have any answers to all those questions, but will say if I want to keep my own rights to do as I see best, as long as I follow existing laws, I need to be sure I don't tramp on the rights of others to do just that when we disagree.
    Have to agree that's a pretty apt comparison: if you are ever going to breed something "abnormal" for aesthetic purposes only (like so many of our dog breeds), I think you should be prepared to defend that because it is mostly likely going to have some negative consequences. Personally, I don't think the bred-for gait seen in any of the gaited breeds really horrifies anyone, its mostly the man-made action devices that push it into the abnormal, somewhat grotesque area.

    That said, you can also make that argument of many breeds (i.e. incredibly dished face of some Arabs, crappy feet on QHs with way too much muscling on top of it, etc).



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    Have to agree that's a pretty apt comparison: if you are ever going to breed something "abnormal" for aesthetic purposes only (like so many of our dog breeds), I think you should be prepared to defend that because it is mostly likely going to have some negative consequences. Personally, I don't think the bred-for gait seen in any of the gaited breeds really horrifies anyone, its mostly the man-made action devices that push it into the abnormal, somewhat grotesque area.

    That said, you can also make that argument of many breeds (i.e. incredibly dished face of some Arabs, crappy feet on QHs with way too much muscling on top of it, etc).
    Better stated than I can, thank you.



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Ok, I have heard it all now.
    What is Fix and what is it supposed to do and why would anyone sore a western horse's legs and for what?
    They don't have to goosestep around to get points.
    Are you sure you are not seeing things that are not there?
    No, I am not "seeing things" or goosestepping around anything, but just reporting the facts.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    It doesn't matter what other people do to their horses in other disciplines and in backyards all over the world - it will never minimize or absolve what happens to TWH's to make them look like this. To say this looks "fine" and the horses look happy is like saying soft porn with teens is okay, because it's not real porn and the girls enjoy what they're doing.

    It's the most unnatural discipline in the horse world and people get their rocks off on how much more grotesquely one horse can move over another. The people who enjoy it are defective.
    That is your opinion and not the one shared by alot of people on this forum, who don't bother to post much because of the "hate posts". You believe what you want, and frankly I don't give a damn what you all (the bashers) think!



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cordial View Post
    That is your opinion and not the one shared by alot of people on this forum, who don't bother to post much because of the "hate posts". You believe what you want, and frankly I don't give a damn what you all (the bashers) think!
    That's my point - typically, people don't hate people for no their discipline. Not that *I* hate you, or anyone who supports Big Lick, but I will take a stand for an animal.
    The day that I choose some hobby that I have to hide and keep to myself for fear of retaliation or being bashed, is the day I'll take a good hard look at what I'm doing.

    BTW, all of my dogs are au naturale, and large .



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I still don't understand why someone would do something stupid because "it is what all do", sorry.
    "Cruel"?
    By who's standards do you call what is cruel and what do you want to do about that?
    Bluey, you lost me. I'm not following you. Sorry.



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eventer13 View Post
    Have to agree that's a pretty apt comparison: if you are ever going to breed something "abnormal" for verifiable aesthetic purposes only (like so many of our dog breeds), I think you should be prepared to defend that because it is mostly likely going to have some negative consequences. Personally, I don't think the bred-for gait seen in any of the gaited breeds really horrifies anyone, its mostly the man-made action devices that push it into the abnormal, somewhat grotesque area.

    That said, you can also make that argument of many breeds (i.e. incredibly dished face of some Arabs, crappy feet on QHs with way too much muscling on top of it, etc).
    Many hound, working or sporting breeds, like horse breeds, were developed for a purpose, taking a useful characteristic and selecting for it. TWH's were selected for smooth gaits, dachshunds were selected for their ability to follow badgers down holes and they have trials that test their willingness to do so. A dog with longer legs would not be able to do their job and one with less tenacity would not want to do so.
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  15. #75
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    Painful to watch. More painful for the horse to experience. But the fat trolls hunched over those horses were yucking it up and smiling big. They enjoyed it.



  16. #76
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    I am against abuse as much as the next person but I stand by the thought that different is not wrong.

    Just because this is not what I think a horse should do does not mean it is evil. These horses have been bred to move like this.

    The trainers who use abuse to get there, well yes, they are wrong/bad. Just like the trainers who use abuse in every other discipline.



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I am against abuse as much as the next person but I stand by the thought that different is not wrong.

    Just because this is not what I think a horse should do does not mean it is evil. These horses have been bred to move like this.
    No they haven't. Show me one that moves like this with freakish changes in the angles of their lower limbs, and without the leverage bits.



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I am against abuse as much as the next person but I stand by the thought that different is not wrong.

    Just because this is not what I think a horse should do does not mean it is evil. These horses have been bred to move like this.

    The trainers who use abuse to get there, well yes, they are wrong/bad. Just like the trainers who use abuse in every other discipline.
    I concur that "different" is not necessarily wrong. In this case, however, it is.

    I also agree that every breed has its outlaws and renegades. That does not excuse, explain, justify, or mitigate what happens in the Walker show ring.

    The idea that Walkers have been "bred for this" is wrong. They have been bred to pace and the pace is turned into the Big Lick by the application of instrumentalities. Think of it as the gait being "nailed on" vice being bred or trained in. Some of the instruments used are legal, some are not. The HPA defines them.

    Some folks would have you believe that if chemicals are not used it's not "soring." That is wrong in both a legal and practical sense. Chemical soring is but one arrow in the quiver of the Big Lick lick trainer.

    The process of creating of the Big Lick gait is an abomination and deserves the harshest of criticism.

    G.
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  19. #79
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    Amen, G.



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    I am against abuse as much as the next person but I stand by the thought that different is not wrong.

    Just because this is not what I think a horse should do does not mean it is evil. These horses have been bred to move like this.

    The trainers who use abuse to get there, well yes, they are wrong/bad. Just like the trainers who use abuse in every other discipline.
    Well said, Trubandloki, and I couldn't have said it better myself!



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