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  1. #41
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    Just the fact that there are stewards at the wash racks looking for blood speaks volumes about the so-called "training" that goes on at these shows (and more so at home for that matter)...



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtdobes View Post
    Just the fact that there are stewards at the wash racks looking for blood speaks volumes about the so-called "training" that goes on at these shows (and more so at home for that matter)...
    Stewards are at many shows and are looking at what all the rule book regulations require of exhibitors, not just "looking for blood".
    That is what stewards of any organization do, so the competition is fair to all and of course, so there is no one not only not breaking regulations, but much less being abusive, which there are also specific rules against.

    Yes, that was a bit different show that day, the organization NSBA, but it was along with an AQHA event, for what I heard such are.
    I don't know the difference there, but like with cutting, reining, roping, team penning, barrel racing and such, there is some cross over with AQHA events and each discipline's other associations, giving exhibitors more opportunities to show.



  3. #43
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    I'm quite aware of stewards being at shows and what they are there for...I've been showing horses for over 25 years.

    I guess my point was that I've never been to an AQHA show and therefore have never seen bloody gouged up sides from excessive spur use having to be washed off.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtdobes View Post
    I'm quite aware of stewards being at shows and what they are there for...I've been showing horses for over 25 years.

    I guess my point was that I've never been to an AQHA show and therefore have never seen bloody gouged up sides from excessive spur use having to be washed off.
    They're not there to look for bloody sides - which is somehow what "wash racks were being patrolled by AQHA stewards and would report blood being washed off of the horse" got turned into. They're there to report ANY questionable activity.

    Stewards are all over show grounds. I think it's a GOOD thing that they are on the lookout at AQHA shows; it's much better to take a proactive approach (even though some people take that to mean that abuse is rampant) versus not having enough staff on hand and missing cases of abuse (Humble? Drugged hunters? Anyone?).
    Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    And yet...you said nothing

    Until people speak up..even if you are ejected from the seminar or facility..then you are implying your approval
    I was 16 years old. Not really in a position to go spouting off to the farm owner and trainer.

    I've never been shy about discussing what I saw when people brought up the merits of sending a horse to him.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  6. #46
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    sounds like this person needs more than a suspension



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverreed View Post
    Just disgusting. WIsh someone could take a big pair of spurs to HER.

    Just curious, though - everyone is saying that abuse of one sort or another goes on in every breed - I have never heard of Paso Finos being abused in training or at shows. This is my breed of choice and I'm fairly close to a very well known training/showing barn in New England, have been to one show with them so far - have never seen any kind of abuse whatsoever.
    Won't derail this thread but there is abuse everywhere. Paso Finos are no exception.



  8. #48
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    What amazes me is not just that these people do such heinous things, but that the horses tolerate it. If I spurred my TB and yanked his face the way that typical western pleasure riders do, he would flip over on me, or at the very least knock my teeth down my throat with a well placed backwards fling of his head. I am truly amazed, although perhaps I shouldn't be. I guess it must be difficult to protest if you've been longed for 3 hours before your event. Many of them are probably drugged too. I wish some of these nut-jobs would come across a horse like mine. Then there'd be fewer nut jobs.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by meaty ogre View Post
    What amazes me is not just that these people do such heinous things, but that the horses tolerate it. If I spurred my TB and yanked his face the way that typical western pleasure riders do, he would flip over on me, or at the very least knock my teeth down my throat with a well placed backwards fling of his head. I am truly amazed, although perhaps I shouldn't be. I guess it must be difficult to protest if you've been longed for 3 hours before your event. Many of them are probably drugged too. I wish some of these nut-jobs would come across a horse like mine. Then there'd be fewer nut jobs.
    No, I don't think you'll ever find a similar person like Roth who will fork another breed, such as Appy or TB or Haflinger, because they know they couldn't do their power plays. There is a reason they pick the gentle targets they do. Although, Cleve Wells won some championships in Appy National Show just not too long ago. Either he's changed the way he trains or the horse is so dead to the world, it went along with the program.

    I'm still scratching my head over the spurring to stop thing and drop the head. I guess it's to lift the front end?? Honestly, it's one of the dumbest moves a trainer could do to a horse. Silly me, I thought it was drop my center of gravity, touch the reins (not even the mouth) and horse stops.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverreed View Post
    Just disgusting. WIsh someone could take a big pair of spurs to HER.

    Just curious, though - everyone is saying that abuse of one sort or another goes on in every breed - I have never heard of Paso Finos being abused in training or at shows. This is my breed of choice and I'm fairly close to a very well known training/showing barn in New England, have been to one show with them so far - have never seen any kind of abuse whatsoever.
    It goes on. You aren't in an area with many Pasos. Used to be if you went out behind the barns at Nationals (or any of the big shows) late at night you'd see some horrible stuff. Last time I was there I was on the look out, but they either cleaned it up or the offenders learned to hide it better.

    I believe this stuff goes on in every breed and every discipline. Anytime there is money or prestige on the line, there will be unscrupulous, evil people like this bitch here. Horses are just the means to an end for them.
    You are what you dare.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    No, I don't think you'll ever find a similar person like Roth who will fork another breed, such as Appy or TB or Haflinger, because they know they couldn't do their power plays. There is a reason they pick the gentle targets they do. Although, Cleve Wells won some championships in Appy National Show just not too long ago. Either he's changed the way he trains or the horse is so dead to the world, it went along with the program.

    I'm still scratching my head over the spurring to stop thing and drop the head. I guess it's to lift the front end?? Honestly, it's one of the dumbest moves a trainer could do to a horse. Silly me, I thought it was drop my center of gravity, touch the reins (not even the mouth) and horse stops.
    Good points, and let me theorize the "spur for everything" part of (bad) WP training.

    Yes, I believe that the QHs that get even close to winning at this level have a pretty nice mind. Or they have been subject to a life of systematic harassment that makes them patient to the point of sainthood.

    I think you *can* train any breed to react as these docile QHs will, but it will be a long, expensive uphill battle. So trainers who begin with other breeds don't go about it this way.

    I think the spur stop (or spur for lift your back, lower your head and bring me a dry martini) has to do with the goal of never visibly touching the horse's face, that's all. If you take out the aids that come from the bridle, you can add others from the seat, leg or center of gravity.

    Horses are amazingly smart and mentally flexible. You can teach them any signal you want for the same move.

    Oh, and that Cleve Wells guy. I hope the appys have made a more honest trainer of him. But when I have watched him, I have seen a great deal of logic behind the stuff he does...or at least the stuff he does when he knows people are watching. In terms of the plan he has for training a horse-- what he says he wants to accomplish, how he builds toward that and why "this" as opposed to "that," I think he's good. He is the reason people say "Take what you like and leave the rest."
    The armchair saddler
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by meaty ogre View Post
    What amazes me is not just that these people do such heinous things, but that the horses tolerate it. If I spurred my TB and yanked his face the way that typical western pleasure riders do, he would flip over on me, or at the very least knock my teeth down my throat with a well placed backwards fling of his head. .
    I think you'd be amazed at what even a hot, sensitive horse will tolerate, if the training is introduced systematically and the trainer has good timing.

    One of the most abusive trainers I have ever seen ride is one of the top wp BNTs in the arabian world, and arabs aren't exactly known for how well they tolerate rough handling.



  13. #53
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    I loved your post MVP... you nailed it.

    The way I was thinking about it last night was the difference between "trick cues" and "physical communication"

    If you teach a horse to nod their head like they are saying yes when you hold up one finger- that's a trick.

    If you teach a horse to lift their foot when you run your hand down their leg- that's communication.

    A well trained horse has learned to respond to lighter and smaller requests... maybe at a certain point you can point your finger without even touching- and the leg comes up... that's not a trick so much as the horse just anticipating what you want- develped over a long time.

    What pains me is that these indirect codified cues are not being used with highly intelligent willing professional trick horses... in this case- is a BABY STALLION! only 2 years old and he's not just being ridden- he's being expected to respond to a bizarre non intuitive code of trick cues while being ridden. Cues that even make the heads of lifelong human horsemen spin.... and when he gets it wrong his flanks are flayed?

    This is the EXACT same sick injustice I felt when I learned of stewarding in the TWH world. A spurred stop- this is news to me... never ever heard of such a thing. it's SICK... It's like a pummeled calm in a TWH... it's SICK.

    MVP- what you said- you hit the thing I was trying to put my finger on... it's the the core foundation of the whole practice is deciet. (just like Stewarding- it's not about something between horse and rider- but it's something done to the horse to trick a human third party) With parlor trick trick horses the cue is indirect and abstracted so the VIEWER is amazed by the horse who appears to think for himself and answers yes and no to questions asked. That's entertaining. So we have TWH in excruciating pain who won't flinch...that's sadistic... and WP horses who may be screaming inside- or just feeling frisky- and they are locked into this gross frame of abject submission by an invisible iron maiden of their abstract training.... the illusion of the loose rein and one gentle western pleasure hand is like the slight of hand of an illusionist... count me among the stupid dolts with our eyes drawn to the blingy bridle and droopy reins- amazed (and turned off) by the submissive horse who acts more like a footbound china girl than a horse. Bring me a dry martini indeed.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    Um Yeahhhhh.... Right after this particular incident.
    I would be very surprised if the new rules were not in process well before this incident.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugsynskeeter View Post
    ETA - while the thought of glueing hair onto raw areas is hideous enough, what caused me to get the sickest was the marks on the horse's face from being twitched so hard while the cover up was going on.
    Did you see the horse, or are there photos?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Did you see the horse, or are there photos?
    No - Going off what was previously posted by an eye witness that was quoted earlier in this thread. It was the mention of the facial wounds caused by the twitching that made me sick. I was at the Reichert but was not in that barn. The vet tech part of me wants to see pictures of the horse, although I know they would be gruesome.
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.



  17. #57
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    I think if you start young enough, you can accustom the horse to anything, so they don't fight back. Spurring until bloody? Sure. The horse has never known anything else. And gets even more "correction" when he fights back, until he learns not to. Just like stewarding a TWH.

    Any time money and reputation are on the line, people will take just that one little step that they might not otherwise. And little steps lead to giant leaps. And these incremental changes sneak up on you. I remember reading once that Charles Manson would start with his followers by asking for a cigarette. Then sharing food. And if you'll share your food, will you share my bed. And if you'll sleep with me, you'll sleep with Tex, because he's my right-hand man. Until it breaks down the ability to say no.

    I haven't read Fifty Shades of Grey, but it seems like that how the story goes - you start asking people to do something just a little out of their moral or ethical box. Once they start inching out, the next step and the next become easier. You tell yourself and the owners that "everyone does it" and "you can't win in the ring without tuning the horse up", and you're sliding that slippery slope.

    I believe that it's the abuses that will be more harmful to horse culture in America than the economy. Sooner or later, as these incidences are made public (as they need to be!), people are going to back away from public exhibition. They won't want to be lumped in with the public viewpoint that they're abusing horses for their vanity. And if horse sport gets a barbaric image, it will die. Either it will be banned (and it's not going to be RARAs, it'll be everyday people who say, "why are we supporting this?) or attendance will dwindle. I'd guess the average person would rather see no competition at all then to have horses abused.

    StG



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plainandtall View Post
    A spurred stop- this is news to me... never ever heard of such a thing. it's SICK... It's like a pummeled calm in a TWH... it's SICK.
    HOW is it "SICK"?

    It's very much a variance on a "half halt" in the english world. Is a half halt SICK?

    Are my spurs SICK to you? Spurs

    Instead of lightly bumping with your fingers to either say, rein it in or hey a cue is coming - western riders bump with their spurs since the rein is on a drape.

    The venom and accusation in your post is absolutely atrocious, and while it takes quite a bit to get me upset - I'm pretty offended that you're painting a blanket over anyone who essentially rides a horse in spurs that has a spur stop trained into it.
    Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.



  19. #59
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    How in the world do you get a horse to "stop" if you are urging it forward by jabbing it in the sides?



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    How in the world do you get a horse to "stop" if you are urging it forward by jabbing it in the sides?
    It is trained that jabbing it in the sides does not mean that you are urging it forward.



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