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  1. #61
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    Oct. 24, 2007
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    Warsaw, On
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    475

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    Just got back from my very first Congress! It was wonderful...I was there for the cutting and reining, which was great. The shopping was fantastic and the crowds non-existant. Because it was a quiet time compared to later in the show I actually won a pair of Nacona boots from Pard's in their draw! My friend and I stayed in Polaris and the Comfort Inn was inpectably clean with a nice hot breakfast everyday. After we were done with the show, there was enough shoppping in Polaris to keep us very busy. Polaris was great for the number of wonderful restaurants as well. We were thrilled with our experience with all the friendly people we met at the show. I must say if you buy things at the shops, they are more than willing to take you and your purchaes back to your car. I can't wait til next year....I will go for the first weekend again!



  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul. 29, 2001
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    we've got sand and rocks, and rocks and sand...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Oooh, I can turn out a show hunter with the best of 'em. Can I learn a thing or two from the AQHA folks? Like what. I'd love to watch someone get a horse ready. Topnotch mane banding would be good.
    LOL! I always thought I was a pretty awesome groom, and then I went to my first big QH show. I was in awe. I heard a judge in a clinic once say (about showmanship) If it's day five of a show, and you clipped on day one, and you come into my class without having re-clipped, that's just plain lazy. (and unacceptable)

    I've always thought I would love to groom for some of the big guys for a summer, just to see how in the heck they do it.
    The ninja monkeys are plotting my demise as we speak....



  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jan. 5, 2007
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
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    116

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    What are the hours for the trade show? I must be missing where that info is posted on the Congress website.



  4. #64
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2000
    Location
    up a creek without a saddle
    Posts
    2,218

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    Trade show hours are listed as 9:30-7:00.



  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar. 21, 2005
    Location
    michigan
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    2,453

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    The Plane Gods have spoken: I'm crashing your horse show from the 21st to 24th or so.

    I'd be pleased to meet and hang with any COTHers who will tolerate my newbiness.
    I'll be there the 20th and 21st with my youngest daughter watching my God-daughter show. She is showing Showmanship and HUS after placing top 10 at the Novice Worlds last week in TN. I would be more than happy to take you "behind the scenes" if we have a chance to meet .

    I will also be at the Super Sale sitting on my hands to stop myself from bringing a horse home in the empty spot in the trailer, lol!
    Lapeer ... a small drinking town with a farming problem.
    Proud Closet Canterer!



  6. #66
    Join Date
    Aug. 8, 2004
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    Back in the 'nati
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    3,281

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    mvp, I'm planning to come up the 22nd! We can have a (tiny) COTH contingent!



  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
    Posts
    15,564

    Default Woot for COTHers!

    appaloosalady and McVillesMom, I'd be psyched to hang out with both of you.

    Best of luck to your God-daughter, appaloosalady. Huge props for getting to such a big show! It will be nice to have someone to watch (and watch with) for showmanship since I only kinda sorta get it.

    Perhaps I'll leave having learned where my own standards for in-hand training are too low. I had another friend whose mules are World Champions at some kind of in-hand trail stuff and man those things were broke beyond anything I had thought to do. I'm primed to appreciate Showmanship.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Two more questions:

    1. Why the huge emphasis on futurities and stuff on the flat (lots of HUS as opposed to over fences, so far as I can tell)?

    2. And prices structure of western show horses vs. USEF hunters and jumpers?

    Is it that the entire western world is geared to the young horse or prospect? Prices are highest for, say, 3 and 4 year olds? What age horses do ammies and kids ride? These are 8 year olds who have been "finished" for several years and already having soundness issues but are broke, broke, broke? Those horses are cheap or expensive? If so, does that mean that owners can still buy investment horses for their pros to ride? This used to be true in HunterWorld long ago but now it seems that owners don't fund the industry in this way-- they want one they can ride and ride now.

    I'm confused. Looking around at stuff like Dreamhorse, it seems that the competitive western show horse is a helluva lot cheaper than the hunter or jumper.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  9. #69
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,700

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Two more questions:

    1. Why the huge emphasis on futurities and stuff on the flat (lots of HUS as opposed to over fences, so far as I can tell)?

    2. And prices structure of western show horses vs. USEF hunters and jumpers?

    Is it that the entire western world is geared to the young horse or prospect? Prices are highest for, say, 3 and 4 year olds? What age horses do ammies and kids ride? These are 8 year olds who have been "finished" for several years and already having soundness issues but are broke, broke, broke? Those horses are cheap or expensive? If so, does that mean that owners can still buy investment horses for their pros to ride? This used to be true in HunterWorld long ago but now it seems that owners don't fund the industry in this way-- they want one they can ride and ride now.

    I'm confused. Looking around at stuff like Dreamhorse, it seems that the competitive western show horse is a helluva lot cheaper than the hunter or jumper.
    Futurities promote stallion fees and yearling sales, and offer good purse money. Way easierto do the flat than learning to ride a horse over fences, and way, way, way more prospective buyers than for fence horses.

    There are plenty of older ammy and youth horses, some have been lucky or been well taken care of and are still sound. The extreme collection and riding down to go slow at a young age does not help long term soundness, and QH trainers/owners do not usually complain loudly about hard footing as do H-J folk.

    An investment horse in the AQHA world is a yearling for the pro to ride in the 2 or 3 year old futurities, then to sell for an ammy or youth to ride at 4 and beyond. There are some owners who know they will never ride at a top level and do have the finances to fund the World Beater for the pro to show year after year. Not many, but some.

    A top quality $$$$ hunter or jumper is harder to find and make up than a top quality western horse, in general. Most things cost less in the breed show world (except the show tack and custom shirts!), including training fees and stall fees at the same show venues. Now reiners are a different story, and are approaching the hunters in cost per qualtiy.
    Last edited by Plumcreek; Oct. 18, 2012 at 02:16 AM.
    Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
    www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com



  10. #70
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2006
    Posts
    133

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    1. Why the huge emphasis on futurities and stuff on the flat (lots of HUS as opposed to over fences, so far as I can tell)?

    2. And prices structure of western show horses vs. USEF hunters and jumpers?
    1. Many of the HUS horses are also allaround horses that may show in western classes as well. The nice thing about AQHA is that you can ride a huntseater in multiple classes if jumping is not your cup of tea.

    2 The Congress is the grandaddy of the big money futurity shows. People do buy horses as primarily trainer's horses for the futurities, but far more non-pro riders want to be able to show them as a three.

    I know many, many great horses that started as wp futurity horses who have gone onto be greats in all around horses.

    The reason that you are probably not seeing the big money western horses on web based selling sites is that they still tend to be brokered between trainers. I know a very nice wp gelding who did well at the futurities (didn't win any of the big ones, but did make some money) that ended up as a very nice western rider and trail horse (show trail). The owners turned down 6 figures before he was proven (and that was actual 6 figures as I knew both parties).

    So the big money is in the all around horses. A great pattern, trail, western riding, showmanship horse that can still show on the rail is hard to find and can't be bought for less than 6 figures.



  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    15,564

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumcreek View Post

    A top quality $$$$ hunter or jumper is harder to find and make up than a top quality western horse, in general. Most things cost less in the breed show world (except the show tack and custom shirts!), including training fees and stall fees at the same show venues. Now reiners are a different story, and are approaching the hunters in cost per qualtiy.
    Thanks very much for the explanation.

    So... why is it harder to find/more expensive to make a reiner, hunter or jumper than the others? Is it that the WP or barrel horse is easier to make or knows less? Or these horses stay sounder than the reiners, hunters and jumpers so that there are more of them around?

    I'm ready to think that it takes some time to make a top WP horse. Or is the gap between tippy top and pretty good there narrow enough that a great ride can close it in a pleasure class? Or another option: Are WP horses largely a matter of inborn stuff-- you get the pretty gaits, (relatively) uphill carriage? Is it a genetic beauty contest the way the USEF hunters have become?

    Oh, and friends that do cutting horses claim that most of 'em have back problems by the time they are 4 or 5. So are these expensive because few can last long enough to get super great or broke?


    Thanks again for the education. I'm really looking forward to my first Congress.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  12. #72
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckles View Post
    So the big money is in the all around horses. A great pattern, trail, western riding, showmanship horse that can still show on the rail is hard to find and can't be bought for less than 6 figures.
    You know, that all-around horse seems worth the money to me. You can't say that horse isn't useful and broke. They sound like pieces of art!
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  13. #73
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2006
    Posts
    133

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    They really are cool. And can be difficult to ride because they are smart and can be opinionated (I know what I'm doing-- leave me alone already).

    I have a friend who owns a great one who is still very competitive in his late teens. His career started as a youth wp horse who either won the youth world show or was top five.


    WP is supposed to be a gateway class to the all-around. The horses that are good minded, athletic, and brought along properly will win wp as youngsters and go on to be a great pattern horse.

    A perfect example is A Certain Vino. He is a multiple world champion and Congress champion (he just won Sr. WP last night ---again) and he is also a very good western rider.

    His correct build is where his talent starts. Add a great mind and you have a legend.



  14. #74
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,700

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Thanks very much for the explanation.

    So... why is it harder to find/more expensive to make a reiner, hunter or jumper than the others? Is it that the WP or barrel horse is easier to make or knows less? Or these horses stay sounder than the reiners, hunters and jumpers so that there are more of them around? There are more of them being bred (or were before the recession). The western all around horses can be modified by good training to a much larger extent than the H-J or Reining horse. Those have to be born with the body and mind to win at the top.

    I'm ready to think that it takes some time to make a top WP horse. It should, but most are evident as yearlings therefore go to the futurities. If they have good management, they get stronger and more broke and show smart over time. Or is the gap between tippy top and pretty good there narrow enough that a great ride can close it in a pleasure class? No, they have to have the movement, backed by great body structure to win at the very top. Even a great rider cannot make up for a lack there. Usually the winner is apparent in WP. Classes like western riding, where there is more chance for the unlucky error, can be won by a just pretty good horse who is having a very good day

    Or another option: Are WP horses largely a matter of inborn stuff-- you get the pretty gaits, (relatively) uphill carriage? Is it a genetic beauty contest the way the USEF hunters have become? Yes, which is why a few top sires and bloodlines are seen so often in winners. That is one reason they can have 2 year old WP futuritues - the top horses look the same there as they do on the longe line. The rest are the topic of chat room discussions.

    Oh, and friends that do cutting horses claim that most of 'em have back problems by the time they are 4 or 5. So are these expensive because few can last long enough to get super great or broke? From what I have seen, the ante has been upped so far in cutting (like reining) that it would be strange if the big winners did not have problems eventually (like high achieving human athletes). The expensive horses are born with their style and desire to control the cow, it is just brought out by their trainers, and getting one too broke can interfere by making them think about their rider rather than the cow. I remember Larry Mahan's fun TV show where he took top trainers from diverse disciplines and put them on each other's horses. Hilda Gurney did OK cutting by staying out of the horse's way, but Buster Welch had no idea how to do flying changes on the big horse.

    Thanks again for the education. I'm really looking forward to my first Congress.
    Do find High Point Performance Horse's stalls and watch when Jason and Charlie, or assistant Adam Wainscott (sp?) ride (especially Huntin Big Dreams). They are one of the current top western barns.
    Last edited by Plumcreek; Oct. 18, 2012 at 11:33 PM.
    Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
    www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com



  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jul. 29, 2001
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    we've got sand and rocks, and rocks and sand...
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    I got to meet Huntin Big Dreams in "person" this year at the Silver Dollar show. Not only is he breathtaking to look at, but is also a lovable golden retriever puppy in a horse body. He was unbelievably sweet. :-)
    The ninja monkeys are plotting my demise as we speak....



  16. #76
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    15,564

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumcreek View Post
    Do find High Point Performance Horse's stalls and watch when Jason and Charlie, or assistant Adam Wainscott (sp?) ride (especially Huntin Big Dreams). They are one of the current top western barns.
    I'll put those guys on my list of celebs to mob.... by myself.

    Oh, and their nice horse/golden retriever in a horse suit.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  17. #77
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2006
    Location
    Laurel Highlands
    Posts
    569

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    Went yesterday, saw what we went to see, bought what we went to buy

    Three States, two weather systems, one fantastic day. Think I will go for a few days next year.

    Heart is still racing from the Phil Harris and Blue Ribbon saddles.
    FMO:OMG I almost put my eye out hunting clique.



  18. #78
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ware Whip! View Post
    Went yesterday, saw what we went to see, bought what we went to buy

    Three States, two weather systems, one fantastic day. Think I will go for a few days next year.

    Heart is still racing from the Phil Harris and Blue Ribbon saddles.
    Good for you!

    So.... what did you buy? Did you have to bring something large like a horse or a new show saddle back across three states and storms?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  19. #79
    Join Date
    Mar. 7, 2006
    Location
    Laurel Highlands
    Posts
    569

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    Nothing quite that exciting

    Found a pair of boots I had been looking for, an arena jacket, and a smart cinch. Surprise, added to my saddle pad collection.

    I was pretty impressed by these pads, http://www.impactgel.com/equine.html
    The M&M demo ( you can see it on the video) sold me.

    Found some good buys on turn outs as well.

    Was gobsmacked by the ratio of men to women in some classes, six women to twenty five men.

    Enjoy yourself, wear comfy shoes, and stay " late" if you can, the night life was very interesting.

    PA to Ohio, not a bad drive, you are in WV for about twenty five miles. Rain on the way in, fog, crazy thick fog on the way home. Took it easy today

    Thank you!
    FMO:OMG I almost put my eye out hunting clique.



  20. #80
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    4,700

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ware Whip! View Post
    ..... and stay " late" if you can, the night life was very interesting.

    Ask about "The Green Wall". Is it still there? Of course, there is now an larger official 'night club' on site.
    Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
    www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com



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