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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellspotted View Post
    I would just seriously like to understand this philosophy of breeding.
    .

    The philosophy is: MONEY. That is all.

    Edit: Someone mentioned Australian golden/labradoodles. Australia is where they originated. I have friends who purchased one from Australia when they were "new" several years ago. My friends are, in fact, responsible dog owners and have given the dog a wonderful life. I don't understand why they did that, but at least the dog is a family member for them. About a year ago, the breeder who created them in Australia issued a public statement that he really regrets creating/promoting a "new breed" when there are so many abandoned dogs in shelters. Nice that he recognizes the problem, but it's a little too late.
    I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry



  2. #42
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    Aug. 21, 2002
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    Well, you are right of course. But if you are going to pissy and self righteous, then you perpetuate the problem.
    Reward correct behaviour....



  3. #43
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    All personal accounts and anecdotes, but i'll share anyway.
    My family is an 'oodle' family, no doubt. Three of the four we (myself and my parents) have are from animal controls. The fourth was the first one, and my mom feels regretful for buying a 'goldendoodle' from a breeder, and spending that much money on her, too! Not really sure why they did that, to be honest. They had standard poodles for over a decade (still had S.Poo #2 at that point), but maybe wanted something a little different, but didn't want to venture too far from the non-shedding and familiar temperament. Plus a little impulsiveness on their part, probably. Regardless, they got D about 5.5 years ago. She's 3/4 poodle, 1/4 golden retriever, and a neurotic mess. Sigh. She looks SO much like a 'real' standard poodle that it's just silly. Not that they'd really know how she'd look full grown...

    I have two poodle mixes. They both came from area animal controls. Schnoo1 is likely schnauzer/poodle, 30lbs and has a very coarse, thick coat. Less kink than a poodle coat, but similar. Hardly ever mats, which is awesome. Schnoo2 is definitely schnauzer/poodle 15lbs with a very silky, thin, non-poodle, non-schnauzer coat. Her coat mats almost instantly and is MUCH higher maintenance, but i still appreciate that neither shed.
    Honestly, I LOVE the combination of poodle and schnauzer, especially Schnoo2's temperament. She's scrappy, and a bit of a terrier handful, but smart and biddable, and not too stubborn. LOVES people and praise, rough houses with other dogs twice her size and isn't delicate one bit. Add to her very portable size and non-shedding and she's almost perfect, in my opinion! I would love to have another one like her in the future.

    Likely, most of my future dogs will follow suit of 5 of our 6 dogs and be from unknown origins (ie, animal control), but i do have some specific breeds in mind that I'd like to own. If I had trouble finding a similar dog in animal control/rescue after an appropriate length of time, and if I could find a pure breed that had all of Schnoo2's qualities (and looks are included), I'd get that breed (if anyone has suggestions, i'll take them!)

    I can't say that i'd seek out a 'purpose-bred schnoodle' for all the reasons mentioned, like the price, but mainly because of the breeder aspects. I would only want to support breeders that are reputable- reputable in my mind means a breeder who would wish to improve "their" breed, which wouldn't imply using their bitches or studs for outcrossing. (I suppose this is more meaningful for the owner of the bitch, since the stud could be collected/used more frequently.) I can't imagine a reputable breeder would be attaching their names to the "oodle revolution" unless they were solely motivated by money--- another thing which negates 'reputable' in my mind.

    I DO highly adore poodles, in particular standard poodles which I grew up with, and I kind of wish most of these people would just go for a purebred poodle instead of falling for the name. Or, instead, finding a breed that has the temperament and most of the physical qualities they want in a dog, and going with that. OR, ha!, if they have the resources (patience, ability to pick out an appropriate adult dog) to go to animal control and find a dog already alive, in danger of being put to sleep.
    But that may be too much to ask from most people!!

    sorry for the novel, but something i think about often, having poodle mixes but not having bought them from breeders.

    (BTW, my parents' other oodle mix is a boxer/poodle, who i was fostering. She sheds a very minimal amount and is a fascinating combination of both breeds in both looks and temperament. She was dumped at animal control as a puppy, after she didn't sell outside of Walmart.)
    (A decidedly unhorsey) MrB knocks over a feed bucket at the tack shop and mutters, "Oh crap. I failed the stadium jumping phase."
    (he does listen!)



  4. #44
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    I have met several standard Poodles, and LOVED all of them. Really smart, happy dogs, at least the ones I met. I would not object to having one. I'd rather have a well-bred Standard than a $3000 "doodle" cross.
    I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guin View Post
    I have met several standard Poodles, and LOVED all of them. Really smart, happy dogs, at least the ones I met. I would not object to having one. I'd rather have a well-bred Standard than a $3000 "doodle" cross.
    I have met a few exceptional standard poodle breeders. They breed Am/Can CH. dogs together for show, pet or work purposes, not for "crosses". Their lines are important to them and many will only breed a female twice, and that is after their conformation or performance career. For this, (and other well represented breeds) I can see someone spending $$$ for a dog. Howvever, when someone breeds the "lemon" poodle with a "lemon" golden the result is a dog with allergies, hip problems, elbow problems, retinal detachment etc etc.

    When a breeder owns 5 Doodle females and breeds them to their resident doodle stud dogs, well, yes...thats a very poorly bred mutt that MAY be a lovely pet but at $2500 likely not worth the chance. Pick one up from the pound, spayed/neutered and vaccinated for a total of $200 Doodles deserve homes too, they can be fantastic dogs but there is NO reason why they would be worth $500+ (as no good breeder would breed a quality purebred with another breed), let alone $2500!!



  6. #46
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    Oct. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    well, for some of the "designer" breeds there was originally a rationale for the cross- the labradoodle was an attempt to transfer the poodle coat onto the lab's temperament (not sure why, standard poodles ALREADY have the kind of temperament that most people interested in labs would definitely appreciate); and things like the "puggle" are an attempt to get desirable pug-like traits into a healthier body type (less deformed), which is a laudable goal; but then it became "fashionable" and turned into a nightmare. Most of the "designer breeders" are just bad breeders out to make a quick buck, so they breed with no regard for health or temperament, and most of the buyers of "designer" dogs are just ignorant dog owners jumping onto the fashion bandwagon. People who choose their dog breed based on how fashionable it is are bound to end up with the wrong kind of dog for them.
    Some of the breeders these days seem to be selecting crosses based on how "cute" the resulting name for the cross is, which is just ridiculous.
    I don't know if this is fact or not but I have read and heard that the Labradoodle was developed to serve as a Guide Dog for blind people who are allergic to shedding dogs. Now, for all I know that is just some snob's attempt to give their dog a snob story. Especially since, evidently, Labradoodles shed anyway. And, as you say, Wendy, why not just train Standard Poodles to be Guide Dogs?
    I'm glad you explained about the Puggle. I could not understand why anyone would cross a huntin' dog with a lap dog, but what you said makes sense.
    I think these designer dog breeders are the new version of the puppy mill.

    A friend and I used to watch Westminster together (we liked it; I have nothing against it at all; this is not making fun of it; we just had fun) and make up breed names for fun. Dobrador. Great Pairoknees. Lesser Swiss Mountain Dog. Miniature Great Dane. We would never have dreamed of actually breeding such mixes--we were just having fun.
    Oh, dear, maybe I shouldn't have posted those names here--don't want to give anyone ideas!

    P.S. I had not yet read your post, Lewin, when I posted this.

    I just get so tickled and ticked off when I hear how PROUD people are to announce that their dog is a purebred Chipoozer (or whatever). Often it's a cute dog. But I still think, Why didn't you just adopt a rescue?

    Proud to be on the staff of one Domestic Shorthair and one tabby alley cat*.

    *Imported
    Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
    People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
    "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellspotted View Post
    I don't know if this is fact or not but I have read and heard that the Labradoodle was developed to serve as a Guide Dog for blind people who are allergic to shedding dogs. Now, for all I know that is just some snob's attempt to give their dog a snob story. Especially since, evidently, Labradoodles shed anyway. And, as you say, Wendy, why not just train Standard Poodles to be Guide Dogs?
    I'm glad you explained about the Puggle. I could not understand why anyone would cross a huntin' dog with a lap dog, but what you said makes sense.
    I think these designer dog breeders are the new version of the puppy mill.

    A friend and I used to watch Westminster together (we liked it; I have nothing against it at all; this is not making fun of it; we just had fun) and make up breed names for fun. Dobrador. Great Pairoknees. Lesser Swiss Mountain Dog. Miniature Great Dane. We would never have dreamed of actually breeding such mixes--we were just having fun.
    Oh, dear, maybe I shouldn't have posted those names here--don't want to give anyone ideas!

    P.S. I had not yet read your post, Lewin, when I posted this.

    I just get so tickled and ticked off when I hear how PROUD people are to announce that their dog is a purebred Chipoozer (or whatever). Often it's a cute dog. But I still think, Why didn't you just adopt a rescue?

    Proud to be on the staff of one Domestic Shorthair and one tabby alley cat*.

    *Imported
    I think the intend was not so much a guide dog, but a service dog with a little more bulk than a poodle.
    They should have not gone with the -oodle name tho.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #48
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    Aug. 13, 2008
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    It's just basic human stupidity. I also like how people think AKC papers actually mean much of anything. Does the average pet owner do a thing with papers?

    I notice the designer dog craze involves a lot more smaller breeds, and it seems to me that smaller is what people want. I feel bad for the medium on up dogs at shelters. I have 3 medium to large mutts, and all that matters is that when they stood by the sliding glass doors and barked like idiots today, the people in the truck in my driveway would not get out. Even with the dogs inside. Good dogs!

    A friend paid $300 or so for a Morkie. Nice dog but piddles constantly and never stops moving. I'll take my shelter mutts.



  9. #49
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    Out of curiosity - would the same objections to "designer" dogs still apply if the dogs were being health tested and proven in some field? If they were placed in screened homes?

    *Both my dogs are rescues, so I'm not asking because I have one. I just have some opinions on it, and am curious how others outside my circle see it.



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudy18 View Post
    A friend paid $300 or so for a Morkie. Nice dog but piddles constantly and never stops moving. I'll take my shelter mutts.
    From Orkie?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
    Out of curiosity - would the same objections to "designer" dogs still apply if the dogs were being health tested and proven in some field? If they were placed in screened homes?

    *Both my dogs are rescues, so I'm not asking because I have one. I just have some opinions on it, and am curious how others outside my circle see it.
    I think they would still be "less" value than pure breed "X" due to their inability to be registered, compete in conformation classes for bettering the breed (although this opens a whole new can of worms), and can not produce registered puppies.

    One of the biggest issues with these crosses is that the PARENTS have no real lineage. They are often crosses themselves, or come from unproven lines. While parents may have good hips, elbows etc. it doesnt mean their lines have good hips/elbows etc. This is why breeders of pure breds (the good ones) are very selective of which animals are bred, and to whom.

    This doesnt go to say there arent bad breeders out there of purebreds. :Purchasing a schnauzer or poodle that are "purebred" that come from low quality parents is just as bad (if not worse) that purchasing a schnoodle. This is why you need to be very careful when looking for a dog - if you are looking for a purebred, do your research because there are just as many bad breeders as good ones.

    I think the issue is, cross breds or purebreds that come from unproven lines should not be compared at the price of puppies from known quality lines.

    I have never owned a quality purebred dog. I will one day, as I do have a strong interest in a particular breed, but I have so far owned 5 phenominal pound puppies.



  12. #52
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    I work part time for the small company that makes the bone-shaped magnets you see on cars that say "I <3 My Beagle" or whatever. We have several designer dog "breeds", most of which I hadn't heard of. Morkie, Peke-Pom, Schnoodle, Shi-poo, Cavichon, Jug, Puggle, it goes on and on. We finally got Pit Mix added to the list. I prefer the one that loves a mutt.

    I think most of these designer breeds are invented because people don't want a dog that sheds. I was speaking to a woman last month who wanted a Soft Coated Wheaten because it didn't shed....all it needed was brushing. She was shocked when I mentioned that they have hair and it needs to be groomed regularly. She was sitting in a salon waiting to have her hair cut; did she think dogs' hair just doesn't grow??

    My late dog was what could have been a Borgie, a border collie/corgi mix.

    You never see ads for free mixed breed puppies anymore. Petfinder is full of odd looking badly bred dogs desperate for forever homes. I'll bet these unwanted dogs didn't come cheap for the first person that had them.



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
    Out of curiosity - would the same objections to "designer" dogs still apply if the dogs were being health tested and proven in some field? If they were placed in screened homes?

    *Both my dogs are rescues, so I'm not asking because I have one. I just have some opinions on it, and am curious how others outside my circle see it.
    Probably, but they would have to get serious about crossing doodle to doodle and creating a real standard instead of h1 to h1 all the time. Most of the designer dogs look nothing alike. I've seen puggles that are all over the map phenotypically. The same goes for the rest of them. Goldendoodles are just a walking conformation nightmare. They bred two dogs together that are nothing alike structurally, so underneath all that hair there's this weird shaped dog - that is apparently quite clumsy. A few people breed doodle to doodle (oh, how I hate that name) and produce a type, but most are doing it for money - a lot of money - plain and simple.
    Ditch the cutesy names, do health testing, breed dogs that have similar bone structure, develop a type and stick with it... then I will take them seriously.

    ETA: I don't just pick on designer dog breeders. I know plenty of AKC breeders who don't give a lick about health or temperament - or about how their own dogs are kept. All they see are $$$$$.
    You are what you dare.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pony baloney View Post

    My late dog was what could have been a Borgie, a border collie/corgi mix.
    That actually sounds like a cute dog.
    I found someone on the internet selling Shiba/Poodle crosses. If you guessed "Shiboodles", you win a free internet cookie.
    They crossed a dog that sheds twice a year, 6 months at a time, with a non-shedding breed. I always wonder if the dogs imploded.
    You are what you dare.



  15. #55
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    Hell yes I would pay more for a mutt than an AKC genetic nightmare.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayhew View Post
    Hell yes I would pay more for a mutt than an AKC genetic nightmare.
    Unfortunately, most designer dog breeders do minimal to no health testing and some breed dogs where both lines carry similar defects - like luxating patellas, seizures, etc... Then they ran with "hybrid vigor" and convinced the public that these dogs were healthier than any purebred. Very dishonest.
    A mutt with a jumbled background may be healthier, but not these puppy milled doodles.

    Of course, people jumped on the new "healthier, easy care, no grooming necessary!" doodles and paid way, way too much. People in my neighborhood were paying upwards of $5000 for Goldendoodles. I've got doodles, puggles, little white orkies, all around me and people are dumping them at the pound as often as purebred dogs. They are discovering that designer dogs can not live up to their expectations - no dog can!
    You are what you dare.



  17. #57
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    My dad used to refer to our old dog Oscar (a mix of Aussie, the father, and a mother my neighbors found in a box by the side of the road who was probably some sort of beagle mix) "A genuine American Curbstone Sitter." I tell people when asked Tucker is a Pembroke Welsh Corgi (which she is) from the Cass County Animal Shelter, and Puff is "part Aussie and part...something tall and skinny. Possibly deer." We're convinced that when we're walking Puff and the deer see him, they really DO hang around staring longer--"Hey, they've got a little deer on a leash!" (I'd LIKE a registered Sussex Spaniel, but that's a long waiting list for a puppy.)

    The one who's caused issues with the vet computers is my cat, Jet, who really should be just a DLH, but one practice just really, really wanted to list him as a Maine Coon. Though in truth he looks EXACTLY like a Norwegian Forest Cat, to the point where even I had to look twice to see if the picture I'm looking at is my Jet or my friend's registered NFC Morgana.



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pony baloney View Post

    I think most of these designer breeds are invented because people don't want a dog that sheds. I was speaking to a woman last month who wanted a Soft Coated Wheaten because it didn't shed....all it needed was brushing. She was shocked when I mentioned that they have hair and it needs to be groomed regularly. She was sitting in a salon waiting to have her hair cut; did she think dogs' hair just doesn't grow??
    I am around hundreds of dogs every year and the one that shed on me more than any other was a 4 month old labradoodle someone surrendered to the shelter because it was too active. I looked like a muppet after 5 minutes.

    Looking at Craigslist, a lot of people think that these poor puppies retain value like a new ipad or something. They are shocked when they can't resell for what they paid when they tire of it. And those breeders never take pups back.



  19. #59
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    I have what I think is a pit/beagle mix (based on build and behavior. I'm sure there's more in there but those are the two that I see most clearly).

    Does this mean she's a Peagle? Piggle? Biggle? Pittle? BeagBull? Peat Bull?

    THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS.

    SHE IS A GREAT DOG WHICH MEANS NOW I SHOULD GO OUT AND BREED MORE JUST LIKE HER.
    <end sarcasm>

    A mutt is a mutt is a mutt. Whether you CHOSE to make it a mutt, or the neighbor's dog got out, it's still a mutt.

    All 4 cats and 2 dogs that my family has owned have been from shelters/Petfinder/collected off the streets. And I wouldn't have it any other way.



  20. #60
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    The new breed standard:

    General Appearance: Eyes, nose, and tail as per request of owner. Fault: fewer than four legs

    Size: Toy group may range from purse to shoulder-bag. In the Working Group, may range from front seat of VW bug to cargo bay of SUV.

    Coat:
    Does not shed or grow hair, but maintains cuddly appearance. Self-grooms and clips own nails.

    Color: per owner preference.

    Temperament: Reliably housebroken at birth. Loves every human and every living thing except burglars and grizzly bears, which the breed will attack without hesitation, but only to protect owner or owner's family and property. Can reliably distinguish a dog toy from the owner's cherished personal property. Does not bark. (Working Group may bark twice to alert for burglars and/or grizzly bears, no more than once an hour. Fault: Any barking between the hours of 8 pm and 9 am.)

    Although the Designer Dog may vary in size, color and appearance, it must never do anything Lassie wouldn't do. The breed must be unmistakeably photogenic, always appearing to best advantage in smartphone videos posted on youtube. Toy group in particular must wear costumes with panache.



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