[Donella]

Charmb, great post

Honestly though, I am not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the merits and drawbacks of an open studbook, I was just pointing out that the CWB books and breeding policies are not similar nor are they modeled after the Hanoverian ones as a couple of people here claimed.

As for the x-ray issue, you are going to find horses of all warmblood breeds that have DOD's, has nothing to do with the CWB horses in particular. But fwiw, the CSH horse auction horses had to have their x-rays ( many more views as well) approved by an equine vet before being accepted into the sale which I thought was a good idea as the market here almost demands that.

[winter]

Thank you Rodawn for that very informative post, it helped a lot to clarify the distinction. It was always my understanding that CSH was a type registry while CW was a breed registry.

[stoicfish]

Charmb, great post

Honestly though, I am not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the merits and drawbacks of an open studbook, I was just pointing out that the CWB books and breeding policies are not similar nor are they modeled after the Hanoverian ones as a couple of people here claimed.

As for the x-ray issue, you are going to find horses of all warmblood breeds that have DOD's, has nothing to do with the CWB horses in particular. But fwiw, the CSH horse auction horses had to have their x-rays ( many more views as well) approved by an equine vet before being accepted into the sale which I thought was a good idea as the market here almost demands that.

Ok, I will only make one more suggestion. Cw was incorporated in 1990, 22 years ago. The books have changed. And I know they used the Hanoverian as a blueprint for creating the association, including the founders going to German for help and suggestions. Honestly, that is exactly where the books come from. But, ask the Verband themselves and see what they say.
Canada has more variation because of the nature of the mare base . But the Germans have a pre-stud book also and those mares can get into the main mare book. http://www.hannoveraner.com/2414.html They only need 3 gens to be in the stud book.

As far as philosophy - you are right there. We are much more like the Dutch. Incorporating a wide range of Wb types and therefore more of an open book. It has worked very well for them.

[Donella]

Ok, I will only make one more suggestion. Cw was incorporated in 1990, 22 years ago. The books have changed. And I know they used the Hanoverian as a blueprint for creating the association, including the founders going to German for help and suggestions. Honestly, that is exactly where the books come from. But, ask the Verband themselves and see what they say.
Canada has more variation because of the nature of the mare base . But the Germans have a pre-stud book also and those mares can get into the main mare book. http://www.hannoveraner.com/2414.html They only need 3 gens to be in the stud book

I don't know what they used to do (the CW's) but quite frankly I think 22 years ago they would have had an impossible go of things if they would have modeled their books and policies after the Hanoverians considering the mare base here then. I have a feeling that is what certain people tell their members because they simply are on two opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to breeding policies. Just because some of the names of the books are the same doesn't mean they function the same way.

To explain further, the Hanoverian books are for Hanoverian branded horses and for the odd individual from a very specific population IF (and only if) they show qualities needed to be an ASSET to the breed. All warmbloods that come from the accepted populations are only able to be placed in the highest book IF they score high enough. Either the mare is a benefit to the genetic pool or it is not. There is no grey area. TB, Arabian and Anglo mares can be place in the stud book (middle book) as well but ONLY mares from these three populations IF they score high enough and of course branded Hano mares if they don't score high enough to be placed in the MSB. In essence the only horses allowed to contribute genetically aside from Hanoverian branded mares are horses that can achieve the same scores a Han branded mare has to to be elligible for Elite Mare status (in Canada and Germany they need the 1A prize as well) ie she must be better than the average Hanoverian mare.

Canadian Warmbloods basically have a book for every type of mare that could be presented and any mare that is placed in any of these books can contribute genetically on some level. This is, as you can see, a very different scheme from the one mentioned above.

Also, CWs do not look at blood the same way the Hanoverians do. Trakehners, Tbs, Arabs and Anglo Arabs are not seen as assets to the breed, they are placed in lower books and are not eligible for MSB entry. Again, I am not arguing for or against here but really, looking at the two registries how can you find any real similarities at all between the two in these regards?? They are on opposite ends of the spectrum, they do not share similar breeding policies and I don't see evidence that they ever have.

As far as philosophy - you are right there. We are much more like the Dutch. Incorporating a wide range of Wb types and therefore more of an open book. It has worked very well for them

Yes, it has. A studbook can be too closed for it's own good, just as it can be too open. I won't argue with you there.

[Denzel]

I have not read the whole thread, so not sure if this has been mentioned yet. My former coach bred CWHBA and my gelding is also registered CWHBA. I've had quite extensive experience with the organization. As a potential buyer, I was MUCH more impressed by the CSHA sale. Yes, they had fewer horses, but their marketing strategy was bounds and leaps better than CWHBA. Each horse had photos of a clean, well groomed horse presented properly and a video to showcase the horse's training and ability. I also feel as if the riding horse quality is overall higher for the CSHA auction. Again, that could be due to the smaller number of horses, or more targeted pool of horses, but the riding horses available in the CWHBA auction seem to vary from very little/amateur training to training/showing in a professional program, to everything in between. From my experience, the CWHBA auction is where many people go to get a warmblood prospect rather inexpensively (which can be seen in the auction results from last year which were quite poor).

[TropicalStorm]

This has been a really intersting read. This is the first time ill be attending both-so be interesting to see the different quality of horses in the flesh

[albertaeventer]

I've been to the fall classic sales a few times over the past few years, and there is definitely both ends of the scale. There are some really lovely horses, and then there's the some that are, well, just not. Overall though, I definitely think the quality of horses in general has been improving over the past few years. I think if the organization can keep moving forward and improving, there is a ton of potential for the Canadian registries.

I think the CSHA sale was absolutely great, well organized, well run, and looking at all the work and prep they did beforehand, it was no wonder that those horses commanded a FAR higher price than they would have gone for a the fall sale. They definitely marketed it extremely well, and everyone looked at it as a higher quality, more prestigious sale. Maybe if the CWHBA did something similar to that for their June sale, prices wouldn't be wouldn't so dismal for the breeder. Don't get me wrong, if I had the funds I would be picking something up at the fall sale, it is definitely a buyer's market right now! But I know a few breeders don't plan to consign anything at the CWHBA sales for the next foreseeable future, it's just not worth it to them. They'd rather hold out for that private buyer instead of letting nice horses go for peanuts

Very interesting discussion though. No matter what, there is always room for improvement for sure.

[Bentley]

Does anyone have the results (or link if it's available online) from the Fall Classic Sale yesterday?

[TropicalStorm]

I do I think everyone was pretty pleased- markets were up from last year.

I'm just heading home and will type them up for you all!

[TropicalStorm]

Ok, here we go.

1) painting $500
2) breeding to Bosch Blue $2000
Lot 1) M3 Wolkenlilly 2009 Filly Wolkenstein II x m3 Aphrodite $13,000
2) Scratched
3) Tarifa 2005 mare Tacorde x Liberty Street xx $17, 500
4) Debutante 2008 gelding Z Camelot x Dazzle. NS - bidding went up to $8500
5) Dolce and Gabbana 2010 filly Don Frederico x Lillian. $9500
6) Google KT 2010 gelding. Grosso Gold x Volanda. NS - bidding went to $8200
7) Scatch
8) Pennie Cress 2010 filly. Whirlwind II x Tanzie. NS - bidding went to $3700
9) Archer RPH 2011 colt Aquilan Calypso x Bravada RPH. NS - bidding went up to $9100
10) scratch
11) Asoka 2011 filly. Gervantus x Karalina W. NS
12) scratch
13) Florida 2012 filly. Fursteinreich x Superstition. $13, 250
14) Quest. 2012 colt. Quidam Blue x Billy Jean. $5750
15) Chagall. 2008 gelding. Comic Hilltop x Roulette. $24 000 - high seller
16) Tristan. 2005 gelding Talme K x Leia. $10, 500
17) Banner RPH 2009 gelding. Baricello x Chi Chi Grande xx. NS - bidding went to $5500
18) Beaudelaire. 2006 gelding. Beau Soleil x Ariadne. $6700
19) scratch
20) Farrah. 2010 filly. Ikoon x Roses for Grace xx. $6750
21) scratch
22) En Route. 2012 gelding. Earl x Latte III. $3000
23) Grigio. 2011 gelding. Ikoon x Warwara. NS - bidding went up to $3250
24) scratch
25) scratch
26) Karalina W (infoal to Donner Bube) Goya de Lully x Kassandra xx. $4000
27) Eezee Top. 2012 gelding. Edward x Rascelle. $3900
28) Drammatico. 2012 colt. Donner Bube x Harmony II. $5700
29) Iridessa. 2012 filly. Ikoon x Ghia. $6900
30) MJ Witherspoon. 2007 mare. Whirlwind II x MJ Just Do It. NS - bidding went up to $9200
31) scratch
32) Ever So Lightly. 2009 gelding. Zeno H2 x Safia. $11, 500
33) Watch Me. 2009 mare. Cat Weasel x WKM Robyn. $12, 750
34) MJ Jamie Sale. 2010 mare. Whirlwind II x MJ Just Do It. $8500
35) Emmitt. 2010 gelding. Eastern Ruler x Foxhaven's Grafin. $6250
36) scratch
37) Everclear. 2010 gelding. Earl x Pistachio. $9000
38) MJ Got Rhythm. 2009 mare. Gervantus II x M3 Desiree. $9250
39) Gilligan. 2008 gelding. Graf Top x Graduate. NS - bidding went up to $8000
40) Mj Massarotti. 2005 gelding. MJ Pax x MJ Tender Moments. NS - biding went up to $5500
41) Well to Do. 2007 gelding. Welt Klasse x Hollyanna. NS - bidding went up to $12,000
42) Carousel's Ikonic. 2010 gelding. Ikoon x Miss Germany. NS - bidding went up to $8300
43) scratch
44) Juno MP. 2010 gelding. Whirlwind II x Fall En Angel. $8500
45) scratch
46) MJ Alice Springs. 2007 mare. Whirlwind II x MJ Sydney Rainbow $8500
47) Playboy. 2009 gelding. Portland L x Barmaid. $14,000
48) A Summer Holiday MP. 2010 filly. Whirwind II x MJ Seoul. $8000
49) scratch
50) scratch
51) Anika KT. 2005 mare. VDL Artic x Cara KT. $13, 500
52) Enya. 2008 mare. Eastern Ruler x Wodan's Shadow. $7300
53) scratch
54) Days of Summer. 2010 mare. Donner Bube x Harmony II. $3900
55) LSF Preston. 2009 gelding. Portland L x Frangelico. NS - bidding went up to $4500
56) Butrus. 2009 gelding. Beau Soleil x Budicca. $7000
57) Exotique Brise. 2008 mare. Eastern Ruler x Brook (cleveland bay). $6250
58) scratch
59) M3 Wembley. Wolkenstein II x Windii. $2600
60) scratch
61) Andalay. 2008 gelding. Laurinn x Thatcher. $20,000
62) scratch
63) Calido's Liebchen KT. 2006 mare. Calidostar x Libelle. NS - bidding went up to $20,000
64) Celine QV. 2007 mare. Carthago Sun x Hot Wheels xx. $5000
65) Drop Kick Murphy. 2010 gelding. Donner Bube x Falcon II. $7300


Voilà

[Bentley]

Wow!! Thanks for that marathon typing job .

[honeychile]

Thanks for posting! A lot of scratches!

[TropicalStorm]

No problem was a good excuse not to read the work emails!

I know at least 3 of the "scratches" were sold in the few days leading up to the auction, but not sure about the others!

[TropicalStorm]

4 horses were sold to New York and 2 to Illinois as well