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  1. #61
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    I think you have to keep in mind why some of these registries don't "accept" Canadian Papers....why would they. Mr. Christmann would like you to register all your horses with his registry, continue to sponsor his travel, and promote semen exports and buying trips to Germany. It's business. Other registries are competition. In Europe most people will support their local national registries, but North America is still pretty much a free market for them....and a very lucrative one.

    Actually, it is the other way around. If the Hanoverians really wanted to make as much money as possible they would open their books to whatever mares anyone wanted to present. THAT would be a good way to get memberships and money. They could follow the CWB way of doing things and have five mare books essentially creating a way for every single mare presented to be accepted on some level ($$$$). If he truly wanted everyone to register their horses Hanoverian then the Hanoverian breeding policies would reflect that. They don't. And that is a big reason I disagree with the CWB breeding policies. Breeding policies should be in place to serve the betterment of the breed, not to fill the pockets of the people running a registry!
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  2. #62
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    Second the need for a "Like" button...

    I learn more each time I come back to this thread --- from buyers, breeders ect. I think this is fantastic and should be brought to Both registries as a learning tool because as I stated before, I'm learning more and thats a good thing.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LPiper View Post
    Stoicfish, you say everything with a sickly sweet tone, but pretty much tore apart my post without listening to it. I did not say breeding substandard horses will mean they go to slaughter. I said breeding substandard horses is TAKING AWAY homes from quality OTTB's. Why add to a population that currently is having thousands slaughtered daily. I used dogs as my example, so clearly, I am not only considered with warmbloods.

    .
    Not sweet just polite. And I heard and I disagree.

    If CWBHA can't even CONSIDER an outside, educated opinion, will only consider opinions of members who are "doing the work" than boy, is that limiting.
    Here is a less polite statement. Your making sweeping generalizations that are really incorrect. They are based on an opinion that was formed from your limited experience. Making definitive statements about CW based on a COTH thread shows this as you seem to be using posts on this thread to make your point. Your statements are extremely prejudicial. Much like any prejudicial statements, you are describing a large group of people with very different breeding philosophies and intentions with simplified and indiscriminate statements. And yes saying that CWHBA will not listen to outside educated opinions is ridicules. Very ridicules. This weekend in Alberta alone, CW had a Hanoverian Verband certified judge and the President of the Finnish Warmblood society, and a FEI Upper level dressage judge, judging the horses. There was also a young man that was a very nice rider (the judges opinion of the guest rider), that has nothing to do with CW. I would take their remarks over some individual on the internet with self proclaimed educated opinion about breeding (that is not involved in breeding). Btw, they both were very impressed with the jumping mares in Alberta. Some were CW mares and other's were from different registries. They were all inspected for CW breeding. Once again....an association is made up of it's members and if people do not take initiative to participate, then criticism is not going to help. The opinions need to accompanied by a warm body to effect the changes. If you're on a board, then "they" become "you" and you can be the person to make the changes. No volunteer organization is free from issues. There are a ton of Americans/Europeans reading this and are able to tell their own stories about the difficulties with registries , however most of them realize that publicly airing their issues instead of doing something about it at a real level, only hurts them all as breeders.
    And for those that are discussing why CW papers are not accepted by other registries......really? Go present your Han mare to the Holsteiners. Or you KWPN mare to Hans. They are not fully reciprocal with each other either. And it is always on a horse by horse basis as the quality and bloodlines have to be in line with the registry.



  4. #64
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    http://www.hanoverian.org/906-2/

    and
    http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/reg-vs-studbook.php

    This is in reference to the stud book issue. The CW was taken directly from the Hans. The only difference is they have recently removed the Aux papers. But I do believe there are many registries in Europe that still give them out to help support their stallions.
    I do not agree with the aux book being able to move up, but Canadian Law and breed definition influences those decisions also. But I do like the idea of the little QH/WB having some papers and means of tracing them, as it might help them not end up in the Perky can and at least the owners are taking initiative.



  5. #65
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    This is in reference to the stud book issue. The CW was taken directly from the Hans. The only difference is they have recently removed the Aux papers. But I do believe there are many registries in Europe that still give them out to help support their stallions.

    They are extremely different.. have you read the requirements for entrance into each of these different books? CWB's have FIVE books, Han's three. CWB's accept, at the end of the day, mares of any and all populations, warmblood or not, and place them in various books. Mares from all books can contribute genetically to the breed. That is untrue for Hanoverians, who will only look at mares from a limited number of other warmblood registries and in such cases the pedigree has to be approved. CWB's do not allow TB's or Arabians/Anglo into their main studbook..in fact I see they place them in the second lowest studbook of the five. Hanoverians allow Arabians and TB's with good enough scores into their main studbook. Nobody can realistically argue that the CWB books are modeled after the Hanoverian, this is just totally false.

    Go present your Han mare to the Holsteiners. Or you KWPN mare to Hans. They are not fully reciprocal with each other either. And it is always on a horse by horse basis as the quality and bloodlines have to be in line with the registry.


    Nobody is saying that all warmblood registry's have complete reciprocity with each other..of course not. They all have different breeding goals ect. But MOST will not look at CWB because of their lack of quality control whether it be a lack of warmblood genetics in the mare base or the lack of acceptable levels of testing for the stallions.
    Last edited by Donella; Sep. 24, 2012 at 03:15 PM.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  6. #66
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    Wow. Just stumbled across this thread and it blew my mind. So let me get this straight.....what the OP is saying is that CWHBA standards are just not 'up to snuff' and CSHA breeding (based on the recent sale) is far superior. The CWHBA has it's head up its a... and is so nearsighted it can't see that it's poor quality animals are it's own demise.

    Hmmmmmm.......well that's interesting, seeing as I see many draft cross mares and TB mares approved for breeding in the CSHA registry! So whats the diff? And most of the 'Gold' CSHA stallions are from foreign registries, or, as one poster put it, imported by CWHBA breeders who have spent the coin to help themselves with improvements (and by default, everyone in Canada)

    Just another case of the ongoing civil war between the two registries, IMHO. With the recent demise of the horse industry, and declining entries in shows - it really SUCKS that Canadian breeders can't get together on things, because there is always strength in numbers.



  7. #67
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    Just for the sake of discusion. NA Han has

    Elite Mare
    Main Studbook Mare
    Studbook Mare
    Pre-Studbook Mare

    That is 4 levels

    CW has

    MM Main Mare Book
    M Mare Book
    P1 Pre-Mare Book I
    P2 Pre-Mare Book II

    Plus an A Auxiliary Book and mares have to earn Elite status through competition or offspring success.

    And yes Tbs and Arabs go into the lower books in Canada. That is not a lack of discrimination. And it contradicts your statement
    CWB's accept, at the end of the day, mares of any and all populations, warmblood or not, and place them in various books.
    Again this is based on emotion and not fact. No they don't get into any Book. The foals of off breeds go in the aux book and would have to go through 3 generations to even be eligible for the Pre-mare. There are very few breeders that are that dedicated to breeding horse that will always bring less money (unless they are proven under saddle) because of their pedigree. Last year you severely criticized the sale because it had horses with TB dams, even though some of them were consigned by an Olympic Eventer. Somehow I think this is more of a personal issue you have with some of the people in the organization - don't take it out on everyone that uses the registry. Edgar, the President of the American Hanoverian society has donated to the CW stallion Auction for several year. There are people that think it is a worthwhile idea, even if they do not agree with everyone in the organization. And they have been breeding for many years and have much experience with registries.

    Nobody is saying that all Warmblood registry's have complete reciprocity with each other..of course not. They all have different breeding goals ect. But MOST will not look at CWB because of their lack of quality control whether it be a lack of Warmblood genetics in the mare base or the lack of acceptable levels of testing for the stallions. That is just the reality of the situation unfortunately
    Be careful. Many, many CW mares come from imported semen or NA stallions that are approved with other registries. Many of them are not accepted because they are Han crossed with a Holsteiner or KWPN with Hanoverian. It is not fair or correct to say they will not evaluate them based on the fact they are registered with CW. I do know of CW mares with Han or Dutch lines that have been accepted. It is the pedigree that is the determining factor, not the papers. AND it is misleading to suggest that Han or Holstein will accept most mares outside of their own stud book. It is very rare because the horse has to have the right pedigree. The Dutch accepts much more as that is how they have achieved their success. Maybe a model for CW, take the best from around the world. But many KWPN mares that are an mix are not eligible for some of the other registries anymore.



  8. #68
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    Wow. Just stumbled across this thread and it blew my mind. So let me get this straight.....what the OP is saying is that CWHBA standards are just not 'up to snuff' and CSHA breeding (based on the recent sale) is far superior. The CWHBA has it's head up its a... and is so nearsighted it can't see that it's poor quality animals are it's own demise.

    I don't think anyone is saying that. People were commenting on the organization of the CSH sale in comparison to the CWB sale.

    Just for the sake of discusion. NA Han has

    Elite Mare
    Main Studbook Mare
    Studbook Mare
    Pre-Studbook Mare


    The term Elite Mare is a predicate, it is not a book. Elite or SPS mares are all entered into the main Studbook. There are three books.

    Again this is based on emotion and not fact. No they don't get into any Book. The foals of off breeds go in the aux book and would have to go through 3 generations to even be eligible for the Pre-mare.

    Emotion? The Aux BOOK is a BOOK and horses of off breeds are placed in it. While it may take generations before their offspring can move up into the main book, the reality is that their genetics are welcome into the registry and into the gene pool of the CWB. This is the reason you will see a registered CWB with non warmblood/tb/arab breeds throughout it's pedigree. You will NEVER find that in a registered Hanoverian horse because their books are NOT similiar. I don't know who in the registry is spreading this misinformation, but it IS misinformation.

    It is not fair or correct to say they will not evaluate them based on the fact they are registered with CW. I do know of CW mares with Han or Dutch lines that have been accepted. It is the pedigree that is the determining factor, not the papers.

    Yes, you are right, it is often the pedigree that is the determining factor but because most CWB stallions have not passed an approved test, the vast majority of horses with CWB papers will not be looked at. I have a CWB mare that I think is fantastic. She is by Apanarde. Nobody will look at her for that reason unfortunately but it is not something I am offended by and I certainly do not take it personally!

    AND it is misleading to suggest that Han or Holstein will accept most mares outside of their own stud book.

    Did I ever suggest that ?

    Last year you severely criticized the sale because it had horses with TB dams, even though some of them were consigned by an Olympic Eventer.

    I "severely criticized" someone's horse because it had a TB dam? That is unlikely.

    Somehow I think this is more of a personal issue you have with some of the people in the organization - don't take it out on everyone that uses the registry.

    Stoicfish, how am I "taking it out on everyone"??? But look, in all honesty I do believe that the president of a registry should set an example for the other members, to be a very good example of what your registry stands for and ethical behavior is part of that. And I can assure you I am far from alone in my feelings.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  9. #69
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    Oh boy, here we go about the Auxillary book again. Most European books will allow half breds to get some sort of piece of paper recording the pedigree of those foals. This allows these horses to have proof of pedigree and proof of age. Most people consider that a valuable exercise. It's a nice option for a foal that may be out of a mother with some missing links in the pedigree or a crossbred foal with some unconventional breeding on the dam side. Those breeding options aren't for everyone, but those foals are produced, and plenty of them have gone on to be super show horses. In most registries the paper issued to that foal is called a certificate of pedigree. Their dams that do not meet the pedigree requirements of the higher books need to have their pedigrees organized and recorded somewhere.....that is called the Auxillary book. It happens with most of the warmblood registries, it's just called something different.

    I've seen KWPN and Oldenburg papers with unknowns in the first 2 generations.....unknown....hackney...carthorse, or unregistered warmblood...who really knows, but those babies still got registration certificates detailing the known, and unknown parentage.



  10. #70
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    You will NEVER find that in a registered Hanoverian horse because their books are NOT similiar. I don't know who in the registry is spreading this misinformation, but it IS misinformation.

    Did I ever suggest that? The only person that mentioned that in this conversation....

    Yes, you are right, it is often the pedigree that is the determining factor but because most CWB stallions have not passed an approved test, the vast majority of horses with CWB papers will not be looked at. I have a CWB mare that I think is fantastic. She is by Apanarde. Nobody will look at her for that reason unfortunately but it is not something I am offended by and I certainly do not take it personally!


    Glad you like the mare but as a breeder you should have been more aware of the bloodlines you were buying if you were looking for transferability of registry. That would be the same as buying a KWPN mare and trying to approve it Han, Not a fault of CW and I doubt riders care at all, most don't even know their horses pedigree. A CW stallion is any stallion that is registered with the main European registries (that includes all the Hano's) and the ones that are CW licensed. Many people do not breed to the CW "only" stallions because of the limitations for further breeding registration issues and marketability but some breed to them for riding horses, their choice. It is not the vast majority anymore.The ones from CW licensed only stallions in the CSH sale did well........(you owe me a touché on that one)



  11. #71
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    Wow, good thing the owners of Flexible didn't worry about an 'unknown' in their pedigree.....

    Hmmmm, let me see - Stallion Flexible - by Cruising (nice) and the mare 'Flex', who is by the sire 'Safari' (TB) and let me see... 'UNKNOWN'. By Unknown and Unknown, out of Unknown.

    Bet they are laughing all the way to the bank.



  12. #72
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    Default Apanarde

    Quote: She is by Apanarde. Nobody will look at her for that reason unfortunately but it is not something I am offended by and I certainly do not take it personally!

    Just an FYI.
    Apanarde link:
    Swiss Warmblood Approved and CWHBA Approved
    http://www.sigmawarmbloods.com/stallion/apanarde.html

    A number of stallions that are approved with CWHBA were 30 day tested in I believe it was 2000.

    ISR/Oldenburg does a 10 day SPT. As do the Swedish.

    There are lots Euro registries that were Government based, many still receive support of government dollars. As well, their member base certainly makes it viable for them to be able to afford an able and large full time staff, plus many other support people.

    It is an apple and oranges in some ways for those of us with horses. In Europe shows are common and very inexpensive to attend, as well as a short haul. In NA...well, we all know the answer to that. Expensive, distant.

    In Europe there is a strong cultural base that takes the horse business seriously and as an actual profession. In NA, in some areas it is the same, but it may be Western discipline.

    In Europe riding is well taught, and available (albeit expensive, but it is here for many too), so are the trainers of horses, and coaches for the riders. Not necessarily here.

    We are behind, trying to create our own, and this is true for any stand alone registry. Some are daughter/sister organizations of the Verbands, etc. Some of those registries recognize the difference and that is why hunters are now being looked at by a few Euro registries. I think that is amazing...and why? Because they want to build more horses for that market...and where will they sell them? Here. Maybe the British Isles too. It will also support sales of hunters for their NA organizations. Good.

    Great discussion, and one way for dialogue to be spread to ears to hear. But it would still be great to see new ideas brought to meetings,etc.
    Charmaine
    Apex Farms
    www.apexfarmsandappraisal.com



  13. #73
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    I've seen KWPN and Oldenburg papers with unknowns in the first 2 generations.....unknown....hackney...carthorse, or unregistered warmblood...who really knows, but those babies still got registration certificates detailing the known, and unknown parentage.

    M point was not to argue the benefits or drawbacks of a more open studbook but simply to point out that the CWB books are CLEARLY not modeled after the Hanoverian ones. That's all.

    Did I ever suggest that? The only person that mentioned that in this conversation....

    My point is that the breeding policies and the studbook organization of both registries are very different, the open nature of the CWB books allows for a variety of breeds to influence the gene pool. That you will not find a Hanoverian with a QH in the fifth generation is evidence of this. Again, I am not arguing for or against either policy, just trying to illustrate that one is clearly not modeled after the other.

    Glad you like the mare but as a breeder you should have been more aware of the bloodlines you were buying if you were looking for transferability of registry.

    I wasn't looking for transferability of registry, I was very aware of her bloodlines. That is not why we have her, nor why she is pregnant. FWIW, we (myself and Stephen) are both avid riders, Stephen is a professional ( the test rider you mentioned in one of your previous posts) and absolutely loved riding the mare. So that is why we bred her. Registry is not the end all or be all for me, I just have preferences for a variety of reasons.

    A CW stallion is any stallion that is registered with the main European registries (that includes all the Hano's) and the ones that are CW licensed.


    Technically a Canadian Warmblood stallion is one that is registered CWB.

    The ones from CW licensed only stallions in the CSH sale did well........(you owe me a touché on that one)

    I don't know what your point is about the horses that did well at the sale being sired by a CW stallion... there are some great horses that come from these stallions, I have never said differently (and obviously I believe that as I own three CWBs).
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  14. #74
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    There are lots Euro registries that were Government based, many still receive support of government dollars. As well, their member base certainly makes it viable for them to be able to afford an able and large full time staff, plus many other support people.

    I could be way out there but could CWB not afford to hire anyone? It certainly appears to have many breeders and members...
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  15. #75
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    I had x rays sent to my vet on two horses from this sale and they were not good. Who cares about bloodlines if the x rays are crap at such young ages.
    Dog hair, it's whats for dinner



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmjhp View Post
    I had x rays sent to my vet on two horses from this sale and they were not good. Who cares about bloodlines if the x rays are crap at such young ages.
    This can happen at any sale from any horse within any registry. Were you able to resolve these issues to your satisfaction? I presume this would mean you could withdraw from completing the sale of those horses because of the unsatisfactory veterinary inspection?
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    There are lots Euro registries that were Government based, many still receive support of government dollars. As well, their member base certainly makes it viable for them to be able to afford an able and large full time staff, plus many other support people.

    I could be way out there but could CWB not afford to hire anyone? It certainly appears to have many breeders and members...
    Again, apples and oranges. The CWHBA like CSHA has an office staff person to undertake the daily business of the association.

    Unlike some of the Euro studbooks however, who's members number in the thousands, the Canadian Registries are looking at 600 or less members. Some, like Trakehner have just over one hundred. (could be out on that statistic, as I have not seen their latest numbers). Add in some government dollars in Europe, and there is an even larger difference in budgets.What the associations in Canada do to serve their members is amazing when taken in context of size of country to travel, etc. compared to European countries where it is a 2 or 3 hour drive only.

    CWHBA and CSHA both "hire" some very expert people for various functions. CWHBA brings in an Inspector from Europe for their National Tour, which has a jury of 3 to 4 inspectors, unlike some Euro's who only send one person to give an opinion. CSHA also fields a team to inspect, and as the Sale indicated, brings in well known International personages.

    Growing pains? You betcha! Regional input, we hope so. An organization is only as strong as it's weakest link is one saying. I'd like to say that we are as strong as the whole, and that is each and every member coming with constructive questions, solutions, giving of time and effort. Also the reality is that it is putting generational effort into the building of NA breeding. Maybe not there in my lifetime, but stronger each and every year. Guess some are builders, and others are buyers. Some are breeders, some are riders. Some are a bit of both...and we need all of us at the table, at the showring and in the breeding shed. Great questions, positive ideas build the best, sharing knowledge, networking and building all of us to be better breeders, riders, enthusiasts. And honestly, when you "bash" your own, you are bashing yourself.

    I am Canadian, and hope that the pride I feel about living in this great country is shared. And the challenges too! So, let us all work to make it better, and the knowledge we have from the other registries makes us stronger. CSHA and CWHBA, all work hard, but sometimes there may be communication gaps, lack of ability/money/time to be like the "stars"....so make it happen. And fyi, there are are qh, paint and others in some of the Euro NA/NA books. I was surprised, but there you go. And most certainly there is Anglo Arab, tb,etc. in the Euro books. Go lookin'. Some of the greats will surprise you. We also have a much larger tb mare base than Europe, and sometimes we are breeding in reverse to them, in the blood from the bottom, they bred it from the top (I was told many years ago, that in Europe they could not afford the tb mares). Not all is as clear as one may think.

    Dialogue, opinions...we can use them to educate ourselves, grow and enthuse ourselves. This thread is such an item in my humble opinion.
    Charmaine
    Apex Farms
    www.apexfarmsandappraisal.com



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    This can happen at any sale from any horse within any registry. Were you able to resolve these issues to your satisfaction? I presume this would mean you could withdraw from completing the sale of those horses because of the unsatisfactory veterinary inspection?
    The auction has not taken place. They just make these services available ahead of time so people can know what they are bidding on.
    It is unfortunate the x-rays were not what you are looking for. But the remark was a bit sharp and to be clear your vet must have had a different opinion than that of the sale vet as they are looking at the same x-rays. Many young horses (3 and growing) have some abnormalities, just ask the breeders on this forum or search ocd. If it is obvious the horse has an issue, it is pulled from the sale. This was the case with one this year. And to be clear the horses you are referring to are not from this year.
    Last edited by stoicfish; Sep. 25, 2012 at 03:27 PM.



  19. #79
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    Please note that it was not my remark about the x-rays, but jmjhp who made the remarks.

    Also, I was not clear whether jmjhp's remarks were about horses obtained in the sport horse sale (which is what I presumed was the case), which has already taken place just recently, or if it was about horses being looked at for the upcoming warmblood sale on October 13-14.
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild One View Post
    Just another case of the ongoing civil war between the two registries, IMHO. With the recent demise of the horse industry, and declining entries in shows - it really SUCKS that Canadian breeders can't get together on things, because there is always strength in numbers.
    I might disagree with you. The 2 registries do not have a civil war. They have 2 very different mandates and serve different purposes. Canadian Sport Horse is a registry for all sporthorses. Recently on CoTH there was a thread about Thoroughbreds being bred specifically as sporthorses. The CSHA could be such a registry for Canadian TB breeders wishing to go this route - off topic, but the thought hit my brain and compelled me to type it.

    Recently, the CWHBA (Canadian Warmblood) was granted by the government to be defined as a DISTINCT BREED meaning they follow a stricter protocol as to breed distinctiveness, and the requirements, breeding mandates and blood stock parameters are more defined. Now most likely Doreen or Marilyn could state things far more eloquently than I ever could because they were either right in the thick of the process personally and/or working closely with the very people who were diligently, persistently and carefully working very, very hard for a number of YEARS to get this done. But from what I understand now, and in my own rather simplistic description of it, is that now with the distinct breed designation that every horse registered with Canadian Warmblood must have proven pedigree that traces back to a very specifically named group of 12 (or is it 15?) stallions serving as foundational sires. Foundational sires such as Fling, Detektiv, and others. I had the whole list, but I have managed to misplace it. This includes those breeders who choose to use Frozen Semen from Europe - those stallions must prove their lineage traces back to the foundational sires so that the resulting foal may be subsequently registered.

    This is not the same issue as requiring DNA parentage for foals. This is another very good requirement implemented since foaling birth year 2011.

    Nobody on here can lump CSHA and CWHBA together as being similar. Nor can it be said they are warring factions because they can't possibly be, considering their mandates are a bit different.

    I can only speak to my own thoughts regarding CW - because I see HUGE potential for this studbook, especially now that it has been given the Distinct Breed designation. If anyone knows anything when dealing with the Canadian government, but if you can convince the government you have a bonified and distinct breed that is fundamentally different or more pure than, say, what is found in Canadian Sporthorse, then you have really accomplished something. It was my understanding that for a while there, the government was stating, either define and prove yourselves as a distinct breed, or submit to the order to merge the CSHA and CWHBA registries into one. Yikes! My opinion is this would have resulted in some chaos and perhaps some others might have thought the same. Anyway, people worked extraordinarily hard to get it done. There is more information here: http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/in...ES+and+BY-LAWS

    Growth and change in business is very tough to go through and it is no different for a breed registry. Maybe it's worse for a new breed registry because the learning curve would be near vertical if you mapped it on a graph. Generally speaking, there are some very impressive things about the CW that I really quite like. I just want to see some tweaks about testing and approvals and quality control measures, and I think the CW will become a registry truly appreciated and respected by even the HanV. The fact CW is willing to bring in inspectors from HanV or other registries is an amazing opportunity to learn from these inspectors and trust their judgement about quality control issues. Personally, I would also like to see CW to host seminars for their breeders using key note speakers who are breeding legends themselves from Europe or elsewhere. The best thing for breeders to improve their breeding programs is access to learning materials/seminars/courses.

    As a group here, we should keep the discussion away from personal stuff and go on with the issues. Procurement of ideas and ways to implement ideas are what proves to be most instrumental affecting positive change.

    I've said it before and I will repeat myself again - I believe CW has enormous potential and work needs to be done to get it there.
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



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