[goodpony]

I got into roaching my horses' manes because I am lazy. BUT the added benefit is that you can see the damned beast's neck. And that alone, makes it worth doing. Truly.

It IS hard hard to see with all that mane--was thinking today I need to do something with his mane.

[grayarabpony]

I think a lot of people are unaware of how 'crooked'/tending to be banana shaped in one direction, most horses are. Therefore, they do not really see the need for the 'full body' release.

Most folks, addressing from the saddle point of view, only are aware of "well the horse is harder/heavier in this rein, but I don't know why..."

When you do the groundwork, you see how plain it is that the horses cross over/yield in one direction so much more easily that in the other. You see how much harder it is for them to shorten one side of their body, bring that hind leg across, step outward with the other leg, and bring their nose towards the inside when going toward that 'stiffer' direction.

But from the saddle, a person is only seeing the neck and feeling the rein. And so, they get stuck there.

This is so true.

[re-runs]

"The Western people have it all in their hands if they want to study--done well, they might be the closest thing today to what's shown in La Guerinere. BTW, I've tried it in Western tack with my old guy, the one who I trained with Racinet, and we ROCKED!"
LOVELEY!



Goodpony, sounds like you are on to something.
Great!

When you do the flexions correctly, you will feel a click, a definate releasing of the jaw, of the poll, of tension. (release is VERY important on your part here) More important, watch the horse`s eye and see if it comes back to you if you are standing on the side. This is getting the horses attention, as the old masters said........"First you must have the eye of the horse, first you must have the ear of the horse." This is the relationship part that I was speaking about earlier.

[ideayoda]

The article mentioned above contains problematic information imho. First of all the poll=the occipital lobe/the two bumps in front of the ears. That is not where (lateral) flexion occurs. The pix shows the 'flipping of the crest', but is excessive flexion for the first lateral flexibility with is done at the atlas/axis area (the pix show a bend more than a lateral flexion), and it shows a lowered posture. That lowered posture is fine to be able to take a pix of what the 'flipping of the crest' looks like, but it has nothing to do with the french methods of flexion (nor the german ones). Imho it is not what BH taught either.

The point of mild (then greater) flexion at the atlas/axis is to mobilize the jaw when the horse is up/open. The fdo comes AFTER this exercise. It takes only the lifting of the bit in the corners of the lips to indicate to the horse that it should start to mobilize the jaw (then chew/then swallow). These actions (all mentioned before) are done with horses of all levels, but they become virtually unseen as the horse develops more sensativity (as does the rider).

[goodpony]

It takes only the lifting of the bit in the corners of the lips to indicate to the horse that it should start to mobilize the jaw (then chew/then swallow). These actions (all mentioned before) are done with horses of all levels, but they become virtually unseen as the horse develops more sensativity (as does the rider).

This is pretty much what I did with my guy--lifting the bit in the corners of the mouth--activating releasing the jaw-in actuality it seems a bit more like 'positioning' than 'bending'--at least that was what I was aiming for. The photos I would guess are exaggerated for clarity--guess we'll see if all that mane on my guy will stand straight up. Either way it should be fun trying.

[mbm]

As mentioned I did not do anything fancy but did pretty much what is described in this article: Poll Suppling. In the images be sure to note the muscle just behind the ears at the top of the neck---its harder to see with on the side where the mane falls--but this is what I was watching for along with a release 'chewing'. It takes only very light/gentle pressure to elicit a response. Probably not important but my guy is currently working 2nd/3rd Level and is 7--so not a very young or very green horse and does have considerable training--already installed. I dont think I would hesitate to do 'bit flexions' on a greenie though. Certainly milder than disconnecting the neck that I sometimes see.

GP you might want to check out the book "Classical Horsemanship for our time" here is a link to a preview... it does show, in the book - how to do flexions.....

i agree with Idea - because the pics shown on the link you posted do not look like correct flexion of the poll - but instead bending on the neck at the 3rd vertebrae?

AFAIK, when you do flexion at the poll the neck should not move and only the head move left/right - it may or may not get the crest to flip.....

[goodpony]

You are all welcome to post better illustrations---I feel confident that I did the bit flexions correctly with my guy based on the fact that I had a very positive response (activating/releasing the jaw=>swallowing and I have had them demonstrated to me) and actual results in my ride today.

[SwampYankee]

"The Western people have it all in their hands if they want to study--done well, they might be the closest thing today to what's shown in La Guerinere. BTW, I've tried it in Western tack with my old guy, the one who I trained with Racinet, and we ROCKED!"
LOVELEY!



Goodpony, sounds like you are on to something.
Great!

When you do the flexions correctly, you will feel a click, a definate releasing of the jaw, of the poll, of tension. (release is VERY important on your part here) More important, watch the horse`s eye and see if it comes back to you if you are standing on the side. This is getting the horses attention, as the old masters said........"First you must have the eye of the horse, first you must have the ear of the horse." This is the relationship part that I was speaking about earlier.

In fact, I just found the picture the other day, cleaning out a closet; the horse perfectly softly framed, on a visibly dynamic 4-track shoulder-in, ridden with one hand on a Western curb. No noseband. I was wearing a black Vaquero-style outfit and hat (yeah, I wear a BLACK hat but you knew that, folks! ) and the horse was as yielding and through as it is possible to be. The photo brought back the feel of that wonderfully! BTW, you can lift the withers wicked-good in a Western curb!

[goodpony]

I forgot to mention something else that happened in my ride today--he was 'high blowing' which he has never done before! How cool is that.

[re-runs]

Swammp Yankee,

Would LOVE to see that picture. I bet you can remember how that felt right down to your toes!

[Sannois]

I forgot to mention something else that happened in my ride today--he was 'high blowing' which he has never done before! How cool is that.

What does that have to do with Working correctly?
My Ottb always did that.

[ideayoda]

The pix shown were plain ol incorrect, the low(er) posture may show more clarity, but the flexions were not correct but imho the worst part was the longitudinal flexion that was allowed. People copy what they see, and that is incorrect (whether one follows french or german...which was more the basis of the article).

But imho the worst thing (and the most contradictory to traditional training) in the article is to 'use the inside rein low/toward the direction of the inside knee.....oh gag. Talk about action onto the bars.....

[kaluha2]

Ideayoda:

Thank you so much for your input on this thread. I have been silent up to this point until Bodo was mentioned. I rode with him for quite a few years and never did he do anything like the "flexions" mentioned here with me on any horse I rode. I spent many days standing in the ring with him listening/ watching countless horses/riders he schooled and/or rode and I don't ever recall seeing him do anything as was mentioned here. Maybe I was absent that day. LOL!

Good pony: I am having difficulty finding the article you mention above and am very interested in seeing in particular pg 139. Can you post that for me or direct me to where I can find that particular page. Thanks.

Thanks Ideayoda.

[ideayoda]

The article is in post 966...click on the 'poll suppling'.

Imho BH (RIP) did do the flexions, most riders from his time period (also mine) were taught to do so. But those shown are NOT them, and certainly not done in that manner.

[kaluha2]

Swamp Yankee:

Can you please explain to me how to lift the withers (in a western curb). Thanks

[SwampYankee]

Swammp Yankee,

Would LOVE to see that picture. I bet you can remember how that felt right down to your toes!

Wish I could post it; no scanner, alas. As to how you lift the withers in a Western curb, it's easy! Because if he's been wearing one and going correctly for awhile, the horse already understands the yielding of jaw and poll.

All you have to do, at the halt or walk, is lift your rein-hand up high and vibrate the bit for a second or two; don't let him step backwards, though, which most have been taught to do.
You should feel him "grow" in front by what feels like at least half a hand; and when you yield your hand in turn, he should be exquisitely on his haunches. Look at the really old illustrations in Pluvinel, La Guerinere and Newcastle and you wll see something very similar. Anyone who's ridden with the Portuguese or Spanish ecuyers jump in here and let us know if they're doing this, too.

[ideayoda]

.......As to how you lift the withers in a Western curb, it's easy! Because if he's been wearing one and GOING CORRECTLY for awhile, the horse already understands the yielding of jaw and poll.

This is a BIG sine quo non. And it also speaks to the nouvelle method of Baucher's effet d'ensemble (a simultaneous use of hands and legs to achieve balance and suppleness). And easily surprises the energy in the trot. This would not be done initially in a western/spade bit. And the effect d'ensemble is not the first exercise either.

[mbm]

You are all welcome to post better illustrations---I feel confident that I did the bit flexions correctly with my guy based on the fact that I had a very positive response (activating/releasing the jaw=>swallowing and I have had them demonstrated to me) and actual results in my ride today.

its cool that you are getting good responses

if you purchase the book i mentioned (it is pretty inexpensive i think) it has a series of pictures that shows the flexions.... and it used to be there were shown in the online previews but i guess no more....


and yay for the high blowing !!!

[mbm]

hey GoodPony! look what i found! images of flexions from Equitation
by Henry L. de Bussigny

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Equitation/Chapter_12


(sorry, edited it is from a different book but still nonetheless what is generally shown in the french school books that i have)

[goodpony]

What does that have to do with Working correctly?

The quote below may explain it better than I can.

‘The technique of breathing plays an important part in the performance of the horse, in the same way that it does with a human being. This technique will be the result of methodical training and will increase the powers of endurance. Excited horses, which do not carry the weight of their riders correctly, will be sooner out of breath and unable to produce as good a performance as well-trained horses. Regular breathing will reveal to the observer a physically and mentally well-balanced horse stepping with regularity. High blowing is a sign of well-being.’

----Alois Podhajsky in his book The Complete Training of the Horse and Rider.

My guy usually 'snorts' before going to work---the high blowing is something completely new for him. And Im intrigued by the idea that i may be related to the longer more elegant neck I saw yesterday.