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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    There have been many different suggestions by the anti crowd, which requires responsible horse ownership.
    Something the pro side doesn't want to practice.

    Pro-side solution is to slaughter more horses. Yours specifically is to open more feedlots so the 'unwanted' horses can be warehoused in the same fashion the BLM does.

    Animal welfare and all has never been part your solution.

    No, there haven't.

    It all involved taxing third parties.
    That is not a workable solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    No, there haven't.

    It all involved taxing third parties.
    That is not a workable solution.
    Huh?

    Taxing third parties are the 5 million dollars the citizens of this country have to cough up for USDA inspectors at the plant, to name one example.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  3. #243
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    Solution. All those that want to "save the horses", step forward buy the horses and care for them.



  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Huh?

    Taxing third parties are the 5 million dollars the citizens of this country have to cough up for USDA inspectors at the plant, to name one example.

    don't be obtuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    don't be obtuse.
    Is that a new word you found in the dictionary? You've used it twice now in this thread.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    One of the best posts on here.

    Thank you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I thought you said you really were not hitting below the belt, but there you go again.

    Better try to keep this a bit less personal, because everyone could be called on the floor if we keep up with that.
    Once the personal jabs start, it is down hill all the way with any debate.
    Why is that personal and hitting below the belt? You sure do pick some odd posts to be sensitive about.

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
    As a pro-slaughter person I do not believe it is the only solution to excess horses. It is a part of the solution. Along with reduced breeding which is also happenning in the stock breeds. There is no single solution to the problem.

    Horse theft is constantly brought up as a reason to ban slaughter. How big of a problem is this really? Out of the millions of horses how many are stolen? Out of those stolen how many are sent to slaughter? I do not have hard numbers for this but I believe we are talking such a small percentage that it is not measurable.
    Why is it even okay if even ONE stolen horse were sent to slaughter? Would you be okay if the one horse was yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Actually the RARAs should be for slaughter as that would be more in line with the no human contact rule they are going for.
    Didn't they recently come out in favor of it??
    At one time, people mistakenly believed PETA made a statement supporting slaughter of excess horses, but it was not true.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post

    Then, if you ask a gazelle being brought down and eaten still alive by jackals, I guess the alternative, to raise and slaughter our prey as we do thru our animal husbandry protocols, that is not such a terrible bargain.

    Horse slaughter was not any different, is not any different, in fact, it was one of the most regulated of all slaughter, that is why it was inspected so intensely.

    For those that then want to question why the abuses, well, from hundreds of thousands of horses slaughtered, yes, there were some abuses, but so are in trainer's barns, in some backyards, most anywhere you find abusers.
    Abusers are a different topic, just happen to be what animal rights extremists like to use for their propaganda, because they can convince those that don't know any better it is all abuse.
    It is misleading to suggest that the way humans act and that our ethical beliefs and behaviors can be compared in any way to that of predator nonhuman animals. Obviously, jackals are not capable of moral abstraction, plus they catch and eat prey to survive. This as nothing to do at all with how humans should treat animals. Since we are capable of ethical behavior, slaughter systems that are inherently inhumane, and current commercial horse slaughter clearly is, are not ethically acceptable.

    I haven't seen any animal rights "propaganda" in this thread, unless this is your label for facts with which you happen to disagree.



  8. #248
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    I am currently searching for any information regarding the "passport implementation for 2013", to no avail.

    Anyone have a link?

    I did come across this comment to an article though, and found it to be pretty accurate:

    "Pro slaughter have NO HISTORY of helping neglected horses or horses in other bad situations. Their motto is send it to the glue factory.."


    ETA: County was definitely the exception!!!!!
    Last edited by luvmytbs; Aug. 31, 2012 at 02:32 PM.

    ************************
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7HL View Post
    Solution. All those that want to "save the horses", step forward buy the horses and care for them.
    That is ridiculous, what people want to save horses from is abuse. Most people are not opposed to slaughter, just inhumane slaughter.

    Would you suggest that anyone who opposes child abuse should adopt all the abused kids instead of asking that laws against child abuse be enforced?



  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    There have been many different suggestions by the anti crowd, which requires responsible horse ownership.
    Something the pro side doesn't want to practice.

    Pro-side solution is to slaughter more horses. Yours specifically is to open more feedlots so the 'unwanted' horses can be warehoused in the same fashion the BLM does.

    Animal welfare and all that has never been part your solution.
    Accurate, and how every thread re: slaughter goes.



  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by allintexas View Post
    It is misleading to suggest that the way humans act and that our ethical beliefs and behaviors can be compared in any way to that of predator nonhuman animals. Obviously, jackals are not capable of moral abstraction, plus they catch and eat prey to survive. This as nothing to do at all with how humans should treat animals. Since we are capable of ethical behavior, slaughter systems that are inherently inhumane, and current commercial horse slaughter clearly is, are not ethically acceptable.
    I agree.
    Posit: Wild animals are cruelly killed by animal predators, therefore, it is okay for humans to cruelly kill animals. Logic? None.



  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    I agree.
    Posit: Wild animals are cruelly killed by animal predators, therefore, it is okay for humans to cruelly kill animals. Logic? None.
    Or, the same side of a different coin, or what I like to call the Michael Vick argument:
    Abuse and cruelty should be allowed in the horse slaughter industry because there are lots of people who abuse horses.

    Even little children in Sunday School are taught that two wrongs don't make a right. (There, I beat you to it: the Jesus is on My Side argument!)



  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    They can shoot them and eat them if they are that hard up.
    If people are that hard up and get their hands on a gun ( if they don't already own one) successfully shoot the horse, then what? Gather round and eat it right then, raw?? It takes several hundred dollars to have a beef processed. How would the normal horse owner even hope to get it hung, cut and wrapped by themselves? What-- a boarding barn hanging, cutting and wrapping party ?

    Another horse was found tied to a stop sign here. Rescues are FULL.

    Slaughter may still happen, like you say, but the buyers for those animals are not at any auctions here anymore . Horses that owners need to sell that way have no buyer anymore.

    Yes, your way is so much better.....
    Last edited by candyappy; Aug. 31, 2012 at 03:32 PM.



  14. #254
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    You are always talking about how green we should be and you're now complaining about the epa?? The biggest reason you want slaughter is to keep your rights to use and abuse as you see fit yet in the next sentence you're saying we need more laws and regulations???

    You also prove my point again. They don't yet have it right with cows, pigs, sheep or chickens. So yet again you want to lump horses in the mess too??
    Talk to me about kindergarden hmmmmm. Make up your mind

    [
    QUOTE=Alagirl;6528661]Really? Is this kinder garden?
    http://skimthat.com/935/drone-pilot-...ng-plant-video

    Considering that a whole bunch of people have conniption when the EPA looks over their shoulder...these was not a the horse meat packer. This was the company packing yummie pork...
    Does that makes it any better? no, of course not, but it should show that the issues are not related. I am sure they didn't pay their taxes either.
    Another reason why people need rules and enforcement in their lives. Because all companies cheat when they can make a buck of it. Just ask BP!



    Yes we wave out star studded wand and turn it all into butterflies and rainbows.


    (
    Ah, running out of arguments, then insulting people, afterward we point fingers and cry 'she started it'

    You are quoting Bluey and accusing her of insulting people.

    The worst she has ever called anybody was ARA follower. And by their actions you shall recognize them....[/QUOTE]



  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    If people are that hard up and get their hands on a gun ( if they don't already own one) successfully shoot the horse, then what? Gather round and eat it right then, raw?? It takes several hundred dollars to have a beef processed. How would the normal horse owner even hope to get it hung, cut and wrapped by themselves? What-- a boarding barn hanging, cutting and wrapping party ?

    Another horse was found tied to a stop sign here. Rescues are FULL.

    Slaughter may still happen, like you say, but the buyers for those animals are not at any auctions here anymore . Horses that owners need to sell that way have no buyer anymore.

    Yes, your way is so much better.....
    One of my neighbors shoots one buck per year. He hangs it from the scoop of his tractor and then skins it.
    And then he slices and dices (so to speak). If he doesn't want to do that, there's a place about two miles down, they'll process "your kill" for you.

    So where do you live where you no longer have horse auctions?

    And why do some people feel that the rescues are responsible for all of your thow-aways? They are not a government run welfare association, last I checked.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    I also have to wonder why Ag Gag laws need to be implemented if there is minimal to no abuse going on/if the abuse is being stopped internally/if the abuse is being monitored by the USDA. If the industry is so clean, why are they afraid of people seeing what goes on?
    The will to make concrete changes for the better is just not there, apparently. Restaurants, Hotels, and even daycare centers use video cameras to both monitor proper work practices and as a deterrent to workers to avoid bad practices (such as mistreating children/pets in the daycare business), using unsanitary methods, etc. Heck, banks do it to protect their money, and this is just one idea of how to make the system better.

    If the horse slaughter plants wanted to ensure humane treatment, they would use transparent systems. It is totally POSSIBLE to humanely slaughter a horse if the system is designed well and monitored; and by "system" I mean starting from the low-end auction. Many people have used the example of european abattoirs as models of humane slaughter. I would guess some are well-managed and some are not, but the point is, it can be done. The big question is will it be done, considering the differences in logistics in our country, especially the challenge of long-distance transport?

    I don't see it happening. I see the slaughter industry, from the auction house, to the kill buyer who crams horses into cattle cars, to the feedlot, to the slaughter plant, as resisting any change. I see the AQHA promoting slaughter and promoting the development of a meat-type animal. It does this rather than promoting responsible ownership, or improving the breed as a functioning pleasure/work animal, or pursuing improvements in slaughter practices. Wasn't this the point of the OP?

    And of all the breeds, Quarter Horses? Come on! Cowboys don't eat their horses!

    I see wealthy industries who pay lobbyists to influence local and federal government, and public relations people who monitor the media, including internet chat sites like this one. Even the Teamsters Union, historically aligned with the beef industry, resists changes which could favorably affect the welfare of transported horses -- what was that law about prohibiting horse transport in double deckers that the Teamsters opposed?

    Do these slaughter-industry businesses participate and promote their own agenda in chat rooms? Certainly some of the rabid pro-slaughter opinions are promoted by those who have identified themselves as making money off the business of slaughter. On the other hand, most of us gain nothing financially by our opinions, pro or con, because it is more expensive to do the right thing by our horses.



  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Huh?

    Taxing third parties are the 5 million dollars the citizens of this country have to cough up for USDA inspectors at the plant, to name one example.
    As for taxes, the users of a system never want to pay the burden, but it is certainly more fair to the public to tax the horse owners, the mass breeders, the auction houses, and for that matter, the slaughter plants, than to tax the average Joe the Plumber who doesn't even own a horse.



  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    One of my neighbors shoots one buck per year. He hangs it from the scoop of his tractor and then skins it.
    And then he slices and dices (so to speak). If he doesn't want to do that, there's a place about two miles down, they'll process "your kill" for you.

    So where do you live where you no longer have horse auctions?

    And why do some people feel that the rescues are responsible for all of your thow-aways? They are not a government run welfare association, last I checked.
    The false argument that promotes a choice between slaughter or abuse is an interesting debate tool to nullify the very real option that most of us practice, and is the crux of the debate: humane euthanasia.

    No reasonable person would consider abusing their animal, whether by torture or neglect. For the average horse owner, the choice of humanely killing a horse instead of sending it to a cheap auction or directly to the kill buyer is a matter of money or work. What I mean by that is that if you are willing to pay the equivalent of feeding your horse for another month, you can take the easier but more expensive option of having a vet euthanize and paying for disposal. This is more expensive than sending your horse to a low-end auction and getting paid $25 for it.

    The other option is to save the money but do the work involved in euthanizing your horse. This would include finding a cheap way to humanely euth your horse, such as finding someone experienced, like a dairy farmer, in shooting a large animal correctly, or educating yourself to do it for the price of a bullet. It would also include the work of researching ways to dispose of the body, such as inquiring about what is legal/available in your area: landfill, universities which want such carcasses, taxidermists, fishermen, Hunt clubs with dog packs, of course rendering plants, or disposing of it yourself as suggested. Any moose or deer hunter can gut and butcher a large animal, cut up the meat and package for donation to whomever. The point is, these are ideas that horse owners use.

    The real problem and expense comes from the industries who do not want to pay for their problems: the AQHA breeder who wants to breed 100 horses and then get rid of 95 and have someone else deal with (as in pay for, with my tax money) the mess. The Thoroughbred industry that goes through three-year-olds like water but doesn't provide enough retirement or euthanasia funds from their gambling coffers.



  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    There is an emerging business I have previously discussed. Equine feedlots. These lots take the horses and keep them for the SIX MONTHS required for human consumption. Before everyone gets up in arms..this is NO different than the average horse who stands around all day and just eats..or switches flies. This allows horses severly injured to be removed and destroyed. It also allows the feeder group to sell or have sales i.e. foal sales every fall..

    This also removes one of the problems with slaughter of pregnant mares. There are currently 11 feedlots in Texas..the largest handling 3000 head.

    There are two in Montana and I understand there are going to be some established in Michigan.

    This will remove the "stopping of bute and dewormer by other than a vet" rumours. That was never going to happen except if you hire an HSUS vet.

    Transportation is still long and arduous and that issue would be resolved to a high percentage IF there were local or central slaughter houses.

    A development of slaughter plants will reflect the changes in the industry and attitudes of society and changes in coldes will reflect those concerns.

    The anti slaughter group always say..stop the breeding...of course that is the answer...no breeding..just use up the "current inventory" and all will be well..except there will be no more horses within 20 years..so lets try and be realistic. Rescues are failing at an amazing rate. Donations have dropped dramatically and a few, such as Gentle Giants and Days End have turned donors off due to their pensions, and wages (although some appear within reason they do not reflect the perks i.e. paid for housing and vehicles, and insurance and all expenses)

    So..here is my question only for the Anti-Slaughter.

    What is your SOLUTION that can have an immediate effect (6 months) maximum?

    Remember that Euthanization is expensive and in many counties illegal unless coupled with carcas removal..for a total bill of $450 up to $800 PER HORSE....There are also more and more HSUS Vets who REFUSE to euthanize HEALTHY horses.....Hay is going to hit record prices...

    I have NEVER received a solution from a Anti slaughter person that was realistic..maybe some of the new posters will have better solutions
    Personal responsibility. If you can't afford the local euthanasia and disposal costs, you are NOT qualified financially to own a horse. These are not equal-opportunity animals, sorry. If I sound like a snob so be it. The same equation applies to the race tracks, the rodeos, the breeders.
    TAKE FREAKING RESPONSIBILITY for the horses you own. I reiterate that the only people either sending horses through a slaughter sale or turning them out loose are IRRESPONSIBLE people who either don't give a sh!t or are purely in it for money.



  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    If people are that hard up and get their hands on a gun ( if they don't already own one) successfully shoot the horse, then what? Gather round and eat it right then, raw?? It takes several hundred dollars to have a beef processed. How would the normal horse owner even hope to get it hung, cut and wrapped by themselves? What-- a boarding barn hanging, cutting and wrapping party ?

    Another horse was found tied to a stop sign here. Rescues are FULL.

    Slaughter may still happen, like you say, but the buyers for those animals are not at any auctions here anymore . Horses that owners need to sell that way have no buyer anymore.

    Yes, your way is so much better.....
    Carcasses can be "composted" in used stable bedding if one is truly desperate. Also, in vast tracts of the American West, if you're out of sniffer range of your neighbors, you can take the horse out on the back 40, shoot it and let the critters clean it up. I guarantee they will do so, with alacrity.



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