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  1. #1161
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    are you still beating this dead horse?
    Can't tell what it was... besides Horse Tartar.

    Seriously, this is like so one full moon ago...make that 2....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  2. #1162
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    are you still beating this dead horse?
    Can't tell what it was... besides Horse Tartar.

    Seriously, this is like so one full moon ago...make that 2....
    Boy, it takes one sick puppy to make fun of a horse being trampled to death.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Boy, it takes one sick puppy to make fun of a horse being trampled to death.
    trampled?
    I am making fun of this dead horse beating....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  4. #1164
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    Jan. 26, 2010
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    [QUOTE=Bluey;6523291]You keep forgetting a little detail in your "economic models", that horses happen not to be "manufactured" and inspected and defective ones thrown away in the dustbin.

    {Obviously you're not familiar with the "professional" breeders in Ocala FL. And lets guess the fate of those "manufactured" by our World Show/Congress winners that didn't make the grade.}My quote.

    We were lucky when we had slaughter to at least use them one more time.
    Slaughter is inherently not inhumane.
    I have seen horses killed in slaughter plants and the horse didn't know any more what was happening than being euthanized in a vet's office.]

    Didn't know horses were euthanized in vet's offices.

    I went to pick up a QH mare I had bought and the woman (who I have known for sometime) asked me if I also wanted to take this bred QH mare for $500 that had been turned back at the sale. I took her sight unseen as I know the "likely" (that's giving you pro slaughter folks the benefit of the doubt) fate of an aged mare, not that I in anyway needed another mare and foal. Apparently producing 12 foals, several of which were preformance horses, and being so gentle she was the "grandchildrens' horse"...wasn't enough to allow her to be pensioned on the ranch. (That's what I love [NOT] about you pro slaughter folks, you want to use your horses "one last time"). And yes, pregnant mares are slaughtered.

    Getting her home and cleaning her up showed at some point she had been in a major train wreck. Scars on her neck, on and between her front legs, on her barrel and most noticeably her right hip with significant loss of range of motion. Also noted on further inspection after hearing the "squeeking of the gums" that she was missing several grinders.

    She had a beautiful filly...who has become very much like her mother, "the grandchildrens' horse", but to grandchildren who have been taught the responsibility of caring for one's horses for life. The old mare? At 31 she still waits patiently for "her turn", when the attention is solely on her. And I do not begrudge one moment getting the most nutritious grain, making an appealing mash, adding cooked treats, seeking out the softest alfalfa.

    My question to you Bluey and Alagirl (who I had had such high opinions of...and the other like minded) had this mare gone to slaughter...would they have put the chain around her bad hind leg when they hoisted her up at the slaughter house? Or would they have used her "good" leg? When she was dangling there with her throat slit and her filly frantic inside her, her own blood running down her face and into her eyes, would she be trying to get back on her feet or would she be wondering where those "grandchildren" who she toted around and gave her treats were? Or, would she be wondering if this is really how AMERICA'S HORSE ends up?

    I have no problem putting one of my horses down if need be and yes, I will be crying for a few days. But if you cannot have a horse put down in its own pasture, you have no business owning a horse. (Doesn't matter who wants to disagree with me...won't see your response...one and a half pages of this thread is all I can deal with.)

    Humane slaughter is an oxymoron.

    I am a AQHA "Life Member" because my Grandfather and Great Grandfather were part of the founding Association. Because I still have QH with their bloodlines. (So don't go there.) Not because the anorexic wasp like things now being registered by "our" association (and BTW what no self respecting TB would even look like) are anything even resembling Two Eyed Jack, Skipa Star, Boston Mac, Easy Jet, Sugar Bars and on and on and on...

    It's an absolute joke...and it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.
    Last edited by Sunlight Star; Oct. 3, 2012 at 08:37 PM. Reason: spelling



  5. #1165
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    Very nicely said.

    [QUOTE=Sunlight Star;6589797]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You keep forgetting a little detail in your "economic models", that horses happen not to be "manufactured" and inspected and defective ones thrown away in the dustbin.

    {Obviously you're not familiar with the "professional" breeders in Ocala FL. And lets guess the fate of those "manufactured" by our World Show/Congress winners that didn't make the grade.}My quote.

    We were lucky when we had slaughter to at least use them one more time.
    Slaughter is inherently not inhumane.
    I have seen horses killed in slaughter plants and the horse didn't know any more what was happening than being euthanized in a vet's office.]

    Didn't know horses were euthanized in vet's offices.

    I went to pick up a QH mare I had bought and the woman (who I have known for sometime) asked me if I also wanted to take this bred QH mare for $500 that had been turned back at the sale. I took her sight unseen as I know the "likely" (that's giving you pro slaughter folks the benefit of the doubt) fate of an aged mare, not that I in anyway needed another mare and foal. Apparently producing 12 foals, several of which were preformance horses, and being so gentle she was the "grandchildrens' horse"...wasn't enough to allow her to be pensioned on the ranch. (That's what I love [NOT] about you pro slaughter folks, you want to use your horses "one last time"). And yes, pregnant mares are slaughtered.

    Getting her home and cleaning her up showed at some point she had been in a major train wreck. Scars on her neck, on and between her front legs, on her barrel and most noticeably her right hip with significant loss of range of motion. Also noted on further inspection after hearing the "squeeking of the gums" that she was missing several grinders.

    She had a beautiful filly...who has become very much like her mother, "the grandchildrens' horse", but to grandchildren who have been taught the responsibility of caring for one's horses for life. The old mare? At 31 she still waits patiently for "her turn", when the attention is solely on her. And I do not begrudge one moment getting the most nutritious grain, making an appealing mash, adding cooked treats, seeking out the softest alfalfa.

    My question to you Bluey and Alagirl (who I had had such high opinions of...and the other like minded) had this mare gone to slaughter...would they have put the chain around her bad hind leg when they hoisted her up at the slaughter house? Or would they have used her "good" leg? When she was dangling there with her throat slit and her filly frantic inside her, her own blood running down her face and into her eyes, would she be trying to get back on her feet or would she be wondering where those "grandchildren" who she toted around and gave her treats were? Or, would she be wondering if this is really how AMERICA'S HORSE ends up?

    I have no problem putting one of my horses down if need be and yes, I will be crying for a few days. But if you cannot have a horse put down in its own pasture, you have no business owning a horse. (Doesn't matter who wants to disagree with me...won't see your response...one and a half pages of this thread is all I can deal with.)

    Humane slaughter is an oxymoron.

    I am a AQHA "Life Member" because my Grandfather and Great Grandfather were part of the founding Association. Because I still have QH with their bloodlines. (So don't go there.) Not because the anorexic wasp like things now being registered by "our" association (and BTW what no self respecting TB would even look like) are anything even resembling Two Eyed Jack, Skipa Star, Boston Mac, Easy Jet, Sugar Bars and on and on and on...

    It's an absolute joke...and it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.



  6. #1166
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    [quote=Sunlight Star;6589797]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post




    My question to you Bluey and Alagirl (who I had had such high opinions of...and the other like minded) had this mare gone to slaughter...would they have put the chain around her bad hind leg when they hoisted her up at the slaughter house? Or would they have used her "good" leg? When she was dangling there with her throat slit and her filly frantic inside her, her own blood running down her face and into her eyes, would she be trying to get back on her feet or would she be wondering where those "grandchildren" who she toted around and gave her treats were? Or, would she be wondering if this is really how AMERICA'S HORSE ends up?

    She would not be wondering anything. The mare is not a person, she is a horse. She would also be dead. Makes it difficult to wonder anything. Once she is dead what differance does it make which leg is used to hoist her up to allow her to bleed out.

    I am not responding to the pregnant mare comment as that is just speculation. Once again, it is a horse, not a person.



  7. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunlight Star;
    her filly frantic inside her, her own blood running down her face and into her eyes, would she be trying to get back on her feet or would she be wondering where those "grandchildren" who she toted around and gave her treats were? Or, would she be wondering if this is really how AMERICA'S HORSE ends up?
    And that's where you lose a great deal of whatever credibility and powers of persuasion that you might have had.

    But if you cannot have a horse put down in its own pasture, you have no business owning a horse.
    Had a horse taken to the university for treatment; horse had to be put down. So I have no business owning a horse? Interesting...

    (Doesn't matter who wants to disagree with me...won't see your response...one and a half pages of this thread is all I can deal with.)
    And there goes the rest of your credibility. You don't want to discuss or persuade, you want to pontificate and judge. Alrighty then.
    Last edited by CarrieK; Oct. 5, 2012 at 08:09 AM. Reason: typing on a phone is hard :)
    Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique



  8. #1168
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    [QUOTE=Sunlight Star;6589797]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You keep forgetting a little detail in your "economic models", that horses happen not to be "manufactured" and inspected and defective ones thrown away in the dustbin.

    {Obviously you're not familiar with the "professional" breeders in Ocala FL. And lets guess the fate of those "manufactured" by our World Show/Congress winners that didn't make the grade.}My quote.

    We were lucky when we had slaughter to at least use them one more time.
    Slaughter is inherently not inhumane.
    I have seen horses killed in slaughter plants and the horse didn't know any more what was happening than being euthanized in a vet's office.]

    Didn't know horses were euthanized in vet's offices.

    I went to pick up a QH mare I had bought and the woman (who I have known for sometime) asked me if I also wanted to take this bred QH mare for $500 that had been turned back at the sale. I took her sight unseen as I know the "likely" (that's giving you pro slaughter folks the benefit of the doubt) fate of an aged mare, not that I in anyway needed another mare and foal. Apparently producing 12 foals, several of which were preformance horses, and being so gentle she was the "grandchildrens' horse"...wasn't enough to allow her to be pensioned on the ranch. (That's what I love [NOT] about you pro slaughter folks, you want to use your horses "one last time"). And yes, pregnant mares are slaughtered.

    Getting her home and cleaning her up showed at some point she had been in a major train wreck. Scars on her neck, on and between her front legs, on her barrel and most noticeably her right hip with significant loss of range of motion. Also noted on further inspection after hearing the "squeeking of the gums" that she was missing several grinders.

    She had a beautiful filly...who has become very much like her mother, "the grandchildrens' horse", but to grandchildren who have been taught the responsibility of caring for one's horses for life. The old mare? At 31 she still waits patiently for "her turn", when the attention is solely on her. And I do not begrudge one moment getting the most nutritious grain, making an appealing mash, adding cooked treats, seeking out the softest alfalfa.

    My question to you Bluey and Alagirl (who I had had such high opinions of...and the other like minded) had this mare gone to slaughter...would they have put the chain around her bad hind leg when they hoisted her up at the slaughter house? Or would they have used her "good" leg? When she was dangling there with her throat slit and her filly frantic inside her, her own blood running down her face and into her eyes, would she be trying to get back on her feet or would she be wondering where those "grandchildren" who she toted around and gave her treats were? Or, would she be wondering if this is really how AMERICA'S HORSE ends up?

    I have no problem putting one of my horses down if need be and yes, I will be crying for a few days. But if you cannot have a horse put down in its own pasture, you have no business owning a horse. (Doesn't matter who wants to disagree with me...won't see your response...one and a half pages of this thread is all I can deal with.)

    Humane slaughter is an oxymoron.

    I am a AQHA "Life Member" because my Grandfather and Great Grandfather were part of the founding Association. Because I still have QH with their bloodlines. (So don't go there.) Not because the anorexic wasp like things now being registered by "our" association (and BTW what no self respecting TB would even look like) are anything even resembling Two Eyed Jack, Skipa Star, Boston Mac, Easy Jet, Sugar Bars and on and on and on...

    It's an absolute joke...and it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.
    Critical Thinking.......Zero

    Believer that Thumper and Bambi were real animals who spoke English...................Ten



  9. #1169
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    For Bluey, who insists that people in the ag industry take care of their animals, and wouldn't harm them.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1953415.html

    Does this happen in every dairy? No. Many dairies? Possibly at some time or another.

    The owner correctly fired the employees when he found out. However, there isn't proper supervision to prevent this abuse. And that seems to be common. I'd be curious to know how long these employees worked there. Because I'm sure they didn't just one day decide to abuse the cows. And it isn't like the workers at a SH where they may become desensitized to thinking of the animals as sentient beings. They are dairy cows who SHOULD be treated well, and live fairly stress free in order to produce the most milk. So they were abused just because some people just don't care about the welfare of the animals they are responsible for. Were it not for an undercover video by an AR group, this would have continued. So I do think there is a need for AR groups. Otherwise NO ONE is guarding the henhouse apparently. The AgGag laws pushed by BigAG would have prevented this from ever coming to the owner's attention. So the abuse would have continued. Look at how often when someone goes undercover, they see abuses. And people aren't able to go undercover at every farm, ranch, slaughterhouse in the country 365 days a year. So I wonder exactly how prevelant abuse really is.



  10. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    For Bluey, who insists that people in the ag industry take care of their animals, and wouldn't harm them.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1953415.html

    Does this happen in every dairy? No. Many dairies? Possibly at some time or another.

    The owner correctly fired the employees when he found out. However, there isn't proper supervision to prevent this abuse. And that seems to be common. I'd be curious to know how long these employees worked there. Because I'm sure they didn't just one day decide to abuse the cows. And it isn't like the workers at a SH where they may become desensitized to thinking of the animals as sentient beings. They are dairy cows who SHOULD be treated well, and live fairly stress free in order to produce the most milk. So they were abused just because some people just don't care about the welfare of the animals they are responsible for. Were it not for an undercover video by an AR group, this would have continued. So I do think there is a need for AR groups. Otherwise NO ONE is guarding the henhouse apparently. The AgGag laws pushed by BigAG would have prevented this from ever coming to the owner's attention. So the abuse would have continued. Look at how often when someone goes undercover, they see abuses. And people aren't able to go undercover at every farm, ranch, slaughterhouse in the country 365 days a year. So I wonder exactly how prevelant abuse really is.
    I was not reading here any more, it is the same, the same all over again.

    Then, on an idle moment, thought maybe there is some other than animal rights extremist talk, but I see I was wrong.

    Do you ever stop to think that, from the millions of millions of times people work with animals, there are but a few abuses?
    Just as from all the kids in schools, there are only some abused?

    Right, there should be none, there we agree, but to blame all for the crimes of the few?
    Yes, those are criminal, against already existing laws regulating what is use and what abuse.

    I will tell you, there is NO ONE more incensed when abuse happens than those of us that care for our animals, because to us they are in our charge, we live for them.

    Animal rights extremists don't like animals as the animals they are, or they would not stand there egging on abusers for their videos.
    Here is one more dairy, with 500 employees, working for 30 years and there is one abuse, no telling how long it took to even get someone to be abusive to get the video and now all with dairy cows are abusers, as the animal rights group that put that out is saying, the reason they made the video?

    That video was not to stop abuses, it was made to close dairies.
    See the disconnect there, how the abuse card is used for propaganda, by those you defend so furiously?

    Here is the story, told a bit differently:

    http://www.cattlenetwork.com/e-newsl...173483381.html



  11. #1171
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    Argh! I only watched a little of the video. Jeez. They have some serious training issues human and animal.

    I remember when having others milk your cattle was "just not done". Dairy farmers never went on vacation. No one will care/handle/milk your cattle like you would. But in those days they all had names.

    One of the problems these days with the huge dairy's, the cattle are expendable and can be immediately replaced. They will never see the care they once enjoyed in a small operation. They are just a piece of the machinery.

    We moved downed cattle on a stone boat pulled by a tractor. Didn't matter WHAT was wrong or whether she would even live. Gah! People suck.



  12. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Argh! I only watched a little of the video. Jeez. They have some serious training issues human and animal.

    I remember when having others milk your cattle was "just not done". Dairy farmers never went on vacation. No one will care/handle/milk your cattle like you would. But in those days they all had names.

    One of the problems these days with the huge dairy's, the cattle are expendable and can be immediately replaced. They will never see the care they once enjoyed in a small operation. They are just a piece of the machinery.

    We moved downed cattle on a stone boat pulled by a tractor. Didn't matter WHAT was wrong or whether she would even live. Gah! People suck.
    That is exactly what animal rights extremists want to accomplish with the videos, that people like you lose perspective because of the abuse and now blame all of the 500 people, working there for hours and weeks and years without incident, until some time, someone slips, if put up to it or really an idiot that should not be working there, was not supervised properly, whatever reason ... just as it happens any other place, just as that one coach abusing kids in that one college, as priest and doctors and even parents abusing someone, that also should never happen.

    Here is more:

    http://www.cattlenetwork.com/e-newsl...173760021.html

    What we need to understand is that is the same in all we do with horses, any one abuse in a training barn, even in rescues there is abuse, from all places, will reflect on ALL of us.

    We understand that, but we should not go off the deep end then following animal rights agendas, blaming all humans do with animals as abuse.

    Perspective is what smart people use, not follow the leader, playing along other's agendas.



  13. #1173
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    Since they know they under fire then they (employers) need to be proactive in safeguarding their business. Put up camera's and view the footage daily. Make damn well sure it isn't happening.

    You don't let employees run wild in any business. I've never 'seen' people feel so free in my field that they can abuse their employers equipment without fear of severe reprimand. In the instances of where it may have happened NO ONE would have seen it. I'd be waiting a very long time for proof and probably never if it were undercover.

    IOW's how are these undercover people so 'lucky' to be getting this evidence at all if it only happens once in a blue moon. Don't tell me in this particular instance it was provoked? Nobody was "provoked" to drag a live cow by the neck.



  14. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Since they know they under fire then they (employers) need to be proactive in safeguarding their business. Put up camera's and view the footage daily. Make damn well sure it isn't happening.

    You don't let employees run wild in any business. I've never 'seen' people feel so free in my field that they can abuse their employers equipment without fear of severe reprimand. In the instances of where it may have happened NO ONE would have seen it. I'd be waiting a very long time for proof and probably never if it were undercover.

    IOW's how are these undercover people so 'lucky' to be getting this evidence at all if it only happens once in a blue moon. Don't tell me in this particular instance it was provoked? Nobody was "provoked" to drag a live cow by the neck.
    Maybe you are lucky you don't have some of the largest, richest, non-profit groups aiming to put you out of business?

    That is what is happening here.
    I am sure if you look around a bit better, whatever your business is, you can also find someone doing things wrong, abusing others or the system.
    That is because abuse depends on abusers, not what kind of work they do.

    Why is that so hard to see?

    -
    -
    For those that are allergic to click on links, here it is:

    ---"Somewhere in America today an animal rights activist lurks on a farm with a hidden camera. It’s hardly a secret. Indeed, the activists groups have repeatedly told us hidden cameras are their most successful tactic and they’ll continue to use them.
    Yet, even with the knowledge of our foe’s battle plan, our industry continues to fall into their ambush.
    By now you’ve all seen the memo: animal abuse cannot be tolerated. It’s a public relations disaster, a detriment to animal performance and business profitability, and creates a poor environment for all employees. But most important, animal abuse is simply wrong.
    This week’s news of the release of an undercover video by the group Mercy For Animals underscores the need for America’s livestock industries to redouble their efforts to end animal abuse. Organizations representing every domestic livestock species have animal well-being programs in place. And over the past several years those programs have helped foster dramatic improvements in animal care.
    All of those industry implemented programs express a “zero tolerance” for animal abuse. Under such guidelines the only possible grades our industries can achieve are pass or fail. Therefore, when it comes to issuing a grade on animal abuse our collective industries are failing.
    That sounds harsh, and it’s not meant to minimize the tremendous effort put forth by extension agents, association employees, veterinarians and producers. We’ve made a lot of progress, no doubt. But that one bad apple is still ruining the whole barrel.
    Not that this week’s target of the undercover video is a bad apple. Quite the contrary, the owners of the Idaho dairy caught in this latest event are responsible, progressive livestock operators. They told the Associated Press they were appalled by the images depicted in the video and have taken swift and decisive steps to address the situation.
    “And we also showed the video to all the rest of the employees in our dairies, all 500 employees, and they had to sign a deal that said they understand that there’s zero tolerance for animal abuse in our dairies,” the owner said.
    The three former workers at the dairy allegedly caught abusing animals in the video have been charged with animal cruelty by the Twin Falls County prosecutor.
    Unfortunately, the actions of the three workers placed the jobs of the other 500 employees in jeopardy. That’s because the dairy may lose some of its large customers. And the actions of those three also contributes to the gradual erosion of consumer confidence in food animal products.

    A news story about this week’s undercover video on Drovers/CattleNetwork brought reader comments from both sides of the issue. But one from an animal rights activist and vegetarian known to Drovers/CattleNetwork wrote: “Animal cruelty is endemic to the dairy industry and agribusiness as a whole.” That statement is completely false, but as long as we have events such as the one this week this activist will be able to make such outrageous claims, a point the activist made at the end of the post: “You can bet this will be shared widely on Facebook and Twitter and I’ll do my part to make it happen.”
    We may have made great strides in changing animal care practices, but as long as animal abuse occurs .01 percent of the time, the opportunity exists for activists to exploit such actions with video distributed via Facebook and Twitter.
    Our industries must continue to strive toward zero incidence for our zero tolerance policies on animal abuse to work."---

    -
    -
    Everyone that matters are already doing the best they can.
    There are slip-ups here and there, no matter what you do, how hard you try to avoid them, no one is perfect.

    Those will reflect on everyone, any abuses, rare they are, have to be stopped.
    No one is saying any different.
    What everyone is saying is, just because there are abusers, don't just assume all are abusers, as the animal rights extremists keep trying to make anything we do with animals sound, as they make such videos, not to help animals, but so obviously to exploit the situation for their agendas, to eliminate all animal use by humans.



  15. #1175
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    I know what you are saying. I read that article before I posted.
    I'm saying, do what you have to to protect your interests. There is no damage control that is going to work against these graphic videos. The damage is TOO disturbing for most.

    For example, if you don't want to get caught up in abuse charges via undercover. Then use your own cameras to at least have proof this was an isolated event. If the undercover sees that you are working to prevent abuses they wouldn't waste their time with you but move on. The ag industry is crying foul without doing their own safeguarding. Again be proactive. Run a tight ship.

    If I were going to raise sheep I damn well better invest in safeguards to protect them. Fencing, LGD's, llamas or donkeys. Not go running to the DNR crying wolf. If I can't protect my investment then perhaps I should not have them.



  16. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I know what you are saying. I read that article before I posted.
    I'm saying, do what you have to to protect your interests. There is no damage control that is going to work against these graphic videos. The damage is TOO disturbing for most.

    For example, if you don't want to get caught up in abuse charges via undercover. Then use your own cameras to at least have proof this was an isolated event. If the undercover sees that you are working to prevent abuses they wouldn't waste their time with you but move on. The ag industry is crying foul without doing their own safeguarding. Again be proactive. Run a tight ship.

    If I were going to raise sheep I damn well better invest in safeguards to protect them. Fencing, LGD's, llamas or donkeys. Not go running to the DNR crying wolf. If I can't protect my investment then perhaps I should not have them.
    Exactly. And Bluey...do you realize that if it WEREN'T for the undercover video, this abuse would still be continuing? And since the AR groups don't have people undercover in EVERY farm/ranch, everyday, the fact that this happens so frequently, on the occasions that they do get someone in there, means it is probably happening more often than we know.
    If AgGAG laws were in place there, the abuse would be continuing undetected. IS THAT OK WITH YOU? Because you rail against undercover video, yet, don't mention that without it, the abuse would continue. The owners were oblivious until shown that video. So in many cases, no one is overseeing the operations to ensure humane treatment. If they were, it would be impossible to get videos like this. Even your magazine sources admit that the abuse happened. You seem more upset that an AR group videotaped the abuse, than you are that it happened unnoticed by the owners.
    Even Temple Grandin stated that when she is at a SH things can be going fine, but as soon as she leaves abuse starts happening.



  17. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Exactly. And Bluey...do you realize that if it WEREN'T for the undercover video, this abuse would still be continuing? And since the AR groups don't have people undercover in EVERY farm/ranch, everyday, the fact that this happens so frequently, on the occasions that they do get someone in there, means it is probably happening more often than we know.
    If AgGAG laws were in place there, the abuse would be continuing undetected. IS THAT OK WITH YOU? Because you rail against undercover video, yet, don't mention that without it, the abuse would continue. The owners were oblivious until shown that video. So in many cases, no one is overseeing the operations to ensure humane treatment. If they were, it would be impossible to get videos like this. Even your magazine sources admit that the abuse happened. You seem more upset that an AR group videotaped the abuse, than you are that it happened unnoticed by the owners.
    Even Temple Grandin stated that when she is at a SH things can be going fine, but as soon as she leaves abuse starts happening.
    You are reading too many animal rights extremists releases, as is obvious, since you parrot them.

    You are wrong, that abuse would not happen as soon as someone noticed, if it was not even staged for the video, that has been known to happen before.

    Do you really, really think that everyone in dairies are abusing their cows all the time and if it was not for that planted animal rights extremist with it's video camera no one would catch on?

    You can think so because you don't know anything at all about cows.
    If you abuse them, they won't be productive.
    If nothing else, for purely a profit motive, dairymen do try to keep their cows happy.

    Yes, do quit repeating what animal rights extremist stories tell, their propaganda, without first running that by your own brain and see if it even makes sense.

    Do you really think that churches, schools, those in the horse industry, are not trying to curb abuses where they happen, best they can?

    I will repeat, the abuse card as a reason to blame everyone in one discipline or anywhere animals are used is really just too tired to get any traction here any more.



  18. #1178
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You are reading too many animal rights extremists releases, as is obvious, since you parrot them.

    You are wrong, that abuse would not happen as soon as someone noticed, if it was not even staged for the video, that has been known to happen before.

    Do you really, really think that everyone in dairies are abusing their cows all the time and if it was not for that planted animal rights extremist with it's video camera no one would catch on?

    You can think so because you don't know anything at all about cows.
    If you abuse them, they won't be productive.
    If nothing else, for purely a profit motive, dairymen do try to keep their cows happy.

    .
    Bluey, the abuse there was not detected by the owner. The reason it came to light was due to the video. Are you saying that it should have been allowed to continue and no video ever done? Because that is what would have happened, for who knows how long. And there is no telling how long it had been occuring prior to the undercover video being done. And it certainly wasn't staged, or the owner would not have fired the 5 people.



  19. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Bluey, the abuse there was not detected by the owner. The reason it came to light was due to the video. Are you saying that it should have been allowed to continue and no video ever done? Because that is what would have happened, for who knows how long. And there is no telling how long it had been occuring prior to the undercover video being done. And it certainly wasn't staged, or the owner would not have fired the 5 people.
    Waste of time jetsmom, waste of time.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"



  20. #1180
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Bluey, the abuse there was not detected by the owner. The reason it came to light was due to the video. Are you saying that it should have been allowed to continue and no video ever done? Because that is what would have happened, for who knows how long. And there is no telling how long it had been occuring prior to the undercover video being done. And it certainly wasn't staged, or the owner would not have fired the 5 people.
    Waste of time, yes, waste of time to get those to think, that sadly can't for themselves.

    If you would just think if what you say makes sense, you would not have proposed that.

    No, abuse happens rarely and then behind inspectors and foremen eyes.
    And yes, there is documented abuse instigated by those animal rights extremist plants in places of work, as the lawsuit the HSUS just lost by just doing that, in that circus, shame on them.

    You really ought to have figured that by yourself.



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