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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    Flexing the way that Clinton Anderson does it, is both stupid and detrimental to horses.

    You NEVER saw the real cowboys do this in the old days and you will NEVER see it today in the real ones either.


    He is a fraud.Walk away.

    Tamara
    THIS.

    In spades!



  2. #22
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    LOL, I'm not looking to become a "real cowboy". But i'll say don't knock it until you try it. Horses learn it really quickly and it's not about being cruel to them at all. They learn to do what you want with just a small gesture and with out touching them. I simply wanted to see if there were any people more familiar with it then me.



  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFJ View Post
    LOL, I'm not looking to become a "real cowboy". But i'll say don't knock it until you try it. .
    yeah like padded horses and rollkur and bleeding and tieing down or up heads or maybe drugging or lunging something to death.. ?


    yeah.

    what makes you think any decent person would need to "try" anything that deep instinct told them was inherently wrong ?


    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFJ View Post
    He was a nursemare foal so he was mainly hand raised and a little too comfortable with people.
    Please do some research on "orphan male syndrome," "berserk male syndrome," or "llama berserk male syndrome."

    Your horse's mouthiness and disrespect may have more to do with his early environment that with current training. Do read up, because some bad behavior can escalate to the point of being dangerous.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    There is no "release" taught to these animals as their owners/riders are mostly not horse trainers and just think it's cool to bend the horse to their foot and the one with the most bend wins...

    they lack feel and tact and any judgement as to when to STOP "flexing"....

    they lack any judgement as to what this majikal "flexing" does...

    They have no idea what and when this "flexing" did have a practical application and why...

    it is at best obnoxious like a crest release in English riding and at worst the Dressage rollkur...

    I agree. I have only attended (briefly) one CA clinic. He was doing a pretty good job of showing a captivated audience how to clean up a horse's face with clippers. I got bored and wandered around the building to find his rig and his helpers doing the lunge til dead method of preparing horses to be good little mannequins. I left.

    I have had to deal with a dangerous little behavior that some idiot taught my horse. We have put it behind us but I was sent a snippet of a CA training DVD showing teaching this. I am sure he did not think through the consequences of teaching an aggressive behavior to a reactive TB instead of to his usual very passive stock horses.

    He may be a trainer, but he has no more concept than the rest of the NH marketers about HOW to teach the general public without causing more problems than you are solving.

    And JFJ, I understand you are looking for a quick fix to a specific problem - can't help you there, because my advice would be to stop doing it - but to tell yourself that you 'are not interested in learning full body flexion' means you cut yourself off from learning something that could be very useful to you and your horse.


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  6. #26
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    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    Please do some research on "orphan male syndrome," "berserk male syndrome," or "llama berserk male syndrome."

    Your horse's mouthiness and disrespect may have more to do with his early environment that with current training. Do read up, because some bad behavior can escalate to the point of being dangerous.
    That was my thought when the OP said "hand raised." I would guess it has relatively little to do with the activity and more to do with his being a spoiled brat early in life.

    And OP, if you're "flexing" by just having him bend his head around (I've seen like one CA video, and while I wasn't aghasted by it it wasn't especially appealing) but I actually just spent the morning watching a friend's session with a Lyons-certified trainer. Now, that was all mounted work and it was about 50/50 horse/rider training, but any 'giving' and bending he had them do was brief and focused on moving the HIND end, except when he briefly demonstrated a shoulder-in on a horse he'd had in training longer. And if anything he had a hard time getting the rider (a relative beginner) release quickly enough. None of it was done with the intent of keeping the horse bent or flexed for extended periods of time, until they got annoyed with it. It was mostly about making the horse (whom I've ridden and who can be a bear about plowing along on the forehand) get his butt in gear, literally, and give more to the aids. If the horse is biting, he's not really learning anything except to turn his head and bite.


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  7. #27
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    his latest infomercial features some singer named Chris Cagle. Now Chris is funny, and he tries hard to do all this ground work stuff right, but the longer I sat and gritted my teeth, the more I came to realize his biggest win is in defeating horses. I think he gets them so sore in the atlas and poll from teaching them to yield their butts by snatching their faces off- um yeah. By the time they are done the whiplash effect is in full play. How many have freakin' concussions when he's done?

    unbalanced, stiff, and snatchy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eCDyF4Qulk

    By the way, where is that colt he managed to harass into attacking him at RTTH? Anyone know?



  8. #28
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    That lunging video doesn't really bother me that much. I don't think the corrections are out of line. The horse is obviously new to it, so I would hardly expect him to be light and balanced in his first lesson. He's teaching the horse not to lean on him. After having a big horse with a stud chain over his nose about rip my shoulder out of the socket, I can see the benefit. What I've noticed is that horses who are taught to be light on the lunge line tend to be light on the bit to as you go into their training because they've learned that yielding to pressure is what we are asking them to do.

    I don't follow any trainer 100%, I pick and choose what works for me, but I have to say a lot of the methods I've tried have worked.



  9. #29
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    One snowy winter’s day two years ago when I was snowed in, I amused myself by googling, each separately, these names followed by the words “train wreck.”

    Pat Parelli
    Craig Cameron
    Clinton Anderson
    Linda Tellington-Jones

    Aside from a few listings about people of similar names and ACTUAL train wrecks, the results were surprisingly vast, eye opening and even shocking.

    There was nothing on LTJ. But the others had many listings. Clinton Anderson by far had the most hair-raising ones. Most of them having to do with the road to the horse.

    There was a lot to read and that was two years ago. All I could do then was shake my head. I am guessing there is a great deal more now.

    I do not like him or his method but that is not based on what. I found that day.



  10. #30
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    Jun. 2, 2000
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    Please do some research on "orphan male syndrome," "berserk male syndrome," or "llama berserk male syndrome."

    Your horse's mouthiness and disrespect may have more to do with his early environment that with current training. Do read up, because some bad behavior can escalate to the point of being dangerous.
    I agree that a lot of his mouthiness has to do with being handraised. I got him when he was about two months old (his mother was a nursemare) and he has just turned 9 years old. He is not mean but if I had to do it all over again, I would have changed some things on how I handled him. He IS a spoiled pet, he rarely gets worked and that is something I am trying to change. I think he is bored and needs a job, lol! He really likes the ground work and I am just starting him undersaddle again. It's just given me a different direction to go with him, we are not looking to compete anywhere. I am not blindly following CA, but I have found it very useful and interesting. Again, he is NOT aggressive, my kids can sit on him bareback and they hang all over him. They know he can nip and they have to watch him.

    englishcowgirl, I never meant to imply that I wasn't interested in getting him to bend his whole body, we are working on that too. I think the word "flexing" is like saying "drawreins" to some people, lol! I am not riding around cranking on him, he is a pleasure horse and by that I mean I ride for pleasure! Not a "pleasure show horse"! He will probably never set foot in a show ring! Most of the time we are on a completely loose rein just wandering around!

    Tamara, I was warned about you! But your posts give me a chuckle so I won't block you!

    lookmanohands, I'll do a google search like you said, but I doubt it will change what I am doing. Because I am hardly a blind devotee on anyone! I'm not into Parelli, not sure who CC is, and I'm not into LTJ. PP and LTJ are both a little "out there" for me, but to each their own!



  11. #31
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    If you have RFDTV, turn it on when CA is on. that video I posted is mild, I agree- but the horse is counter bent, crossfiring, and getting bopped in the face. I think that's just a little unfair and frankly, he couldn't care less.

    I've watched him warm up his own reiners with their chin firmly planted on their point of shoulder. At a trot. As in physically bumping their own chin with their shoulder, for circle upon circle upon circle.

    Turn on the latest, with Chris Cagle snatching his own horse around by the chin. It's just hard to watch.

    CA is no horseman. He sells gadgets. and that flexing business is just another gadget.



  12. #32
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    How I assessed him earlier in my life:

    Saw him at Road to the Horse when he managed to make an untouched sweet 2 YO attack him when he turned his back. He truly makes me queasy.

    What he does that I like:
    blocker tie ring for pullers
    trailer loading is fine (but they all do the same stuff so that's not unique).
    he is too hard on horses and 100% one size fits all. I can't abide the man.

    With that said I've cliniced with Ray Hunt (4 day horsemanship clinic), Larry Whitesell (gaited work), Leslie O'Neil Olsen (dressage) and Lynn Kimble-Davis (dressage). I like Martin Black, Craig Cameron (he's ok, I don't have the shine for him I once did but he's funny as heck and a good cowboy), and the lesser known Jon Ensign.

    Clinton's not worth crossing the street to see. He wants a horse sucked back and off the bridle, ready to whoa. I like them balanced and forward and eager to go, but honest. Big difference.



  13. #33
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    A little off topic, but if you wanna see someone who is truly scary, watch some guy named Dennis Reis. I watched him the other day, just for grins, and he was working an Andulusian (sp?), who seemed to be pretty mellow in the first place. I wondered what would happen to anyone who tried that stuff with, say an OTTB?? If it wasn't so serious that someone could get really hurt, I say it would be an entertaining sight to behold. Really, though, it wouldn't be that funny, I truly thought this stuff he was showing was over the top dangerous.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    A little off topic, but if you wanna see someone who is truly scary, watch some guy named Dennis Reis.
    Even scarier ... Ryan Gingerich.



  15. #35
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    I know absolutely nothing about Clinton Anderson but I've known quite a few horses that get mouthy/nippy when stressed. History of this particular horse aside, that could be a piece of the puzzle. Figure out what's stressing him out.



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?

    I have...it's gross

    Tamara
    I am with Tamara, there are a lot better clinicians/cowboys. Buck Brannaman, Chris Cox, Curt Pate, Bryan Neubert, Greg Eliel....I have taken clinics from both Bryan and Greg. No comparison to CA. There are lots of good clinicians out there besides CA.

    I audited a CA clinic, it was horrible. All these people cooing and saying how wonderful he was, and I saw the poor drafty with both eyes swollen shut because he was in the handler's "space". Poor sweet guy had no idea what they wanted, he was just get wapped in the face with a stick. If CA would have given that horse just a few seconds to think and let it work out what the handler wanted, but CA wanted the horse to "react". I am betting that horse needed a lot of time to get over that clinic and "training". Hopefully the horse wasn't too fearful after that.

    So keep looking for other methods or consult a good trainer.



  17. #37
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    Note: I didn't read all of the above posts.

    All of the "trainers" out there that base their method off of moving the feet is really about commanding respect in one way or another. In theory, it's quite a natural response for the horse since that's how they interact with each other. The question about that is, does the horse-horse response actually translate well to the horse-human response.

    HOWEVER, what I didn't like about what I saw with CA's method was that he gives the horse input and expects the horse to give the right answer...eventually. I feel sorry for the horses in the beginning. Once they know what he's asking for it's a different story. I believe you should try and set an animal up for success first by showing them what you want before asking the question, if that makes sense.
    "Life ain't always beautiful, but it's a beautiful ride."



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by craz4crtrs View Post
    If CA would have given that horse just a few seconds to think and let it work out what the handler wanted, but CA wanted the horse to "react". I am betting that horse needed a lot of time to get over that clinic and "training". Hopefully the horse wasn't too fearful after that.

    So keep looking for other methods or consult a good trainer.

    I think this is one of the problems with many of today's tv trainers. The horse must respond NOW! They are not teaching people to respond to the try. My trainer is big about waiting for it to happen. Today we were trying to teach my husbands horse the beginning of a turn around. She had me set it up and WAIT on him. I am not sure how many tiny circles we made but he finally got it. The wait time got shorter and shorter each time I asked. He was not over stressed or anxious. He was given plenty of time to figure it out.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by spotnnotfarm View Post
    I think this is one of the problems with many of today's tv trainers. The horse must respond NOW! They are not teaching people to respond to the try. My trainer is big about waiting for it to happen. Today we were trying to teach my husbands horse the beginning of a turn around. She had me set it up and WAIT on him. I am not sure how many tiny circles we made but he finally got it. The wait time got shorter and shorter each time I asked. He was not over stressed or anxious. He was given plenty of time to figure it out.
    Yep, yep, yep!! I can see that in my mind!!

    Seriously, horse training isn't rocket science. But watching some of the TV trainers, they make it hard somehow. Watching a good trainer is like watching paint dry. Pretty dull most times. But that wouldn't pull in the dough, I'm guessing.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  20. #40
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    The other great thing about "method" trainers is that it's easy and convenient to package things up and sell them in a book or video.

    They then throw in enough pseudo-psychology to convince people that if the horse isn't responding "correctly" they're being stubborn/bratty/difficult etc, and at minimum to keep doing the exact same thing or at worst to up the pressure.

    Saves the student actually having to learn to think outside the "method", after all.

    Why think of the horse as having needs that aren't being met (fault of the teacher) rather then just think of them as being difficult (fault of the horse)?

    To each their own.



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