Jun. 27, 2012, 03:36 PM
@JFJ..... congrats for teaching your horse "ground manners"..... I had a similar problem with an "unstarted" 3 yo old gelding that did not have much "human" contact.... he also nipped when I would "flex" him around...but then again he would nip.. He was always mouthly with wanting to carry around his lead rope.... but then again, he was only 3...and horse are social with each other and do nip each other... I would rib him with a quick smack to the belly and then continue flexing him a few more times... most of CA's methods work for me. I currently have a retired 12 YO 4-H hunter/jumper mare that had no ground manners whatsoever..... asking a 1100lb horse to be respectful of my space and on the ground is what we all want. Asking my mare and gelding to stand quietly at the end of their lead ropes helps them focus on me. Most peole watch CA work a horse that has no respect for ANY human. And of course it can be a little harsh....I have been to CA clinics and watch him and his staff help 15 people and horses do his method... I was quite impressed with them. I have also been to a Brian Neubert colt starting clinic, and that can be quite harsh also. Starting out slow and know the release of pressure for any activity you are doing is good horsemanship.......Good luck with you horse....
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Jun. 27, 2012, 04:11 PM
I think you can take bits and pieces from any trainer and make it work for you and your horse. The rub is that if you, by yourself, is doing the training, you must have some sense of feel and common horse sense- i.e. be able to read the horse and know if what you're doing is working or not. Including when to push and when to stop. That's not something that can be read or taken out of a book.
As for CA himself, I saw him here at Equine Affair several years ago. He was disasterous, IMO. He was "training" a two/three year old barely broke mare and I think he scared her out of her mind. The poor thing was literally dripping sweat from head to toe. I left...it was obvious she was menally fried and I had no respect for him. I pity the owner of that horse and what they had to deal with after.
Jun. 27, 2012, 04:33 PM
I agree with RedMare about you can take bits and pieces from any trainer and make it work for you and your horse. I am not a super fan of CA, but I have to say when I got my mare about 16 years ago, she was almost 3 years old and had horrible ground manners, pushy, mouthing, nippy, pulling on the halter, lead rope, etc... I did use CA methods for ground work and lunging for respect. To this day, she has great ground manners. She is almost 19 years old and people still comment how good she is on the ground. I never did any further then his ground work methods, so I can't really comment on anything else his does. I have never seen him in a clinic either. Who ever methods you decide to use will benefit you to have a well mannered horse. Good luck with your horse.
Jun. 27, 2012, 06:39 PM
I am not a fan of any of these folks.
Tamara in TN and Lookmanohands, yup agree with ya'll. It is rolkeuring western style. And a bunch more things.
I did the flexing on my arab, just like on tv. Over and over and over. Did it help under saddle - nope. But what it DID do was hurt my upper back severely. I have had lots of chiro'ing to fix it.
I know somebody who trained their horse the CA method and then some, due to her insecurities of riding a horse. She has all the books and tapes and tack. Ok, she was SCARED to ride. So she rp'd this weanling to 3 yr old horse SO much horse now has leg issues, well pelvis issues and front end issues, and wow a sour attitude, and lazy to beat the band. Also when ridden the horse the rider can pretty much beat that horse until it bleeds and it is so overly desensitized it will ignore you. Seen it, quite a few times. Sad. But that horse can sure run the rp, and play "do this 5,000 times" until the owner is satisfied the horse can do "it" and she is no longer scared. The horse has to be nagged over and over and over and over. Oh, is that a fail in the CA method. Don't be a nagging mother he has said.
Got another friend when she gets on her horse she does the side to side to side to side thing. Ok, horse does well in the side to side thing but as for the going forward, the horse pays no attention to pressure on her nose. Oh guess horsey wasn't taught that. Oh, owner has to do the no bit thing, so horse gets rubbed horribly on her nose, yanked also harshly (seen it) and owner gets sore arms too from all the pulling back. But by golly the horse goes side to side to side to side many times over and then some. But by golly ask horsey to back, nope, lots of problems.
With my current riding horse, not my arab, I did NONE of this. And she is lighter in the bridle and off the leg than any horse I have ever had. She has text book backing skills, and she can turn on less than a dime if I asked her too. I trained her more dressage, since I know more dressage now. Oh my I said that word on the western forum. But Tamara in TN said it first!
The side to side thing, waste of time. Get back to teaching your horse REAL skills, not a finger waving, nor a side to side to side to side, or the rp'ing them until you are comfortable they are so tired they will not buck or swish their tail.
Mr horsey bite me on the foot while flexing(which I do not do much if any of it), somebody is gonna get their face slapped, or . . . more if it continues.
Yes, to each their own.
Jun. 28, 2012, 10:03 AM
Anyone know why he seems to lunge his horses incessantly? I have seen a few of his shows on HRTV and seems to do this always until the horse is dripping wet, sides heaving and completely exhausted.
I work all the time with difficult horses and don't have to resort to exhausting them. Just wonder why he does.
Jun. 28, 2012, 01:25 PM
From my point of view, I think they are doing alot at one time because they are doing for a tv show and want to show the results. They are bringing in people who are getting help for a specific problem and they aren't there for a full training board or clinic. He has said several times, that if the horse were there for training they would go back to the basics and start from the ground up. But he is trying to show different things to do that the owner is not doing. There are times when I've heard him say how much he would work a horse and maybe take them out twice a day, etc. I don't find it much different as far as work we expect hunters/jumpers but it's just different work.
I think people see what they want to see. I like him and what he does and I have yet to see anything to make me turn away. But maybe that is just me. The clinic I watched wasn't him but one of his other trainers and they didn't work the horses hard at all. It was a long day but a lot of the day is standing around watching others as well. Plus they took several bathroom breaks and a lunch break. But if you want to see the bad you will. Not to say I am blindly following, I tried a google search and haven't found anything terrible. (If you can find something, I'll look at it and see. The video before with the lunging...I saw nothing wrong with that at all. I didn't see any terrible "snatching" But then again it's all about perspective)
And most of all I've seen a positive turn in my horse and he is by no means getting worked to a dripping sweat or looking dead in his eyes.
Oh and alot of the work undersaddle is all on a loose rein, letting the horses stretch and relax. The "flexing" is not to get the horse round or on the bit. I'm not the best at explaining it and especially to someone who doesn't like him. "Flexing" is probably not the best word and people sure take offense! lol!
Jun. 28, 2012, 06:21 PM
I think the problem with all of these folks is that their appeal lies vastly with middle aged women, who in theory always wanted a horse and wanted to ride, but when they actually had to handle said beast they are afraid and do not want to admit it. So CA with his attractive looks and accent and aura of being in control is a very comforting thing for them. The fact that they have no more clue about what is being done or why is a HUGE problem. He has made a boat load of money as have the Parellis and others but I am not sure how they all sleep at night.
1 members found this post helpful.
Jun. 28, 2012, 08:03 PM
Keep watching. I already said that video is not the devil, wish i hadn't posted it. Watch how he has Chris Cagle work his horse. It's just plain awful. It's on RFDTV, they are running the fool out of it. If he doesn't eventually make your skin crawl, wellll....
Originally Posted by JFJ
Also, a lot of his older, rougher videos are no longer posted. He's cleaned up his rabbit trail. But God Forbid you hand him an Arabian LOL
FWIW, nowhere will you see what happened at RTTH when that unstarted colt tried to eat him alive. A colt he'd previously described as a very kind and sweet colt whose small stature would make him an ideal ladies or child's horse down the line. But he harassed and provoked and pushed on him doing ground work that when he turned his back, that colt lit out after him, teeth bared, out for blood. The gasps in the audience alerted him of the danger, and he turned and caught him across the chest with a dressage whip.
Baby colts don't go from sweet and trying to get along...to trying to kill - meaning come get you and maul you- without damn good reason.
Jun. 28, 2012, 09:30 PM
Jun. 28, 2012, 09:31 PM
yep and I was there and saw it as well...
Originally Posted by katarine
the little SOB about got his lunch eaten for him
Jun. 28, 2012, 09:40 PM
Whatevah...I'm 41 and fat- and I think these women who won't ride but will clinic and groundschool and buy equipment and blog and post online endlessly about their special bonds rather than take real lessons and actually RIDE....aren't doing their horses or their dreams any favors.
Originally Posted by MelantheLLC
After all, what 10 yo horse crazy girl daydreamed about lungeing for respect? Or running a horse sideways down a fenceline with a 20' leadrope and 100 dollar halter?
2 members found this post helpful.
Jun. 29, 2012, 01:10 AM
True, it seems to take being an adult of a certain age to get all bent out of shape about "respect."
Jun. 29, 2012, 02:15 AM
My SO and I watched a CA show on RFD-TV a month or so ago. He had one of his followers - a woman who fit the "typical NH Guru Groupies" description - take her horse up and down some terraces on the obstacle course out in a wide open field.
Originally Posted by katarine
Once she seemed to master the concept of handwalking her own horse up and down, he had her make the horse go up and down the steps while she stayed at "ground level" with plenty of slack in the lead rope/training line. I'm talking about that loooong drag-the-ground looping slack.
At one point in the exercise, the horse got almost to the top of the steps and turned towards her, jumping down right in front of her. If he'd gotten any closer, he'd have landed on her. CA didn't say a thing about what had just happened, how she might have prevented it, etc.
I'm still not sure what this was supposed to accomplish. I don't know if the horse ever figured out what he was expected to do, either. I finally just changed the channel to H2 and learned about all the things Ancient Aliens did for human civilizations. It all makes just about the same amount of sense.
Please copy and paste this to your signature if you know someone, or have been affected by someone who needs a smack upside the head. Lets raise awareness.
Jun. 29, 2012, 05:46 PM
Just to be clear, I am a middle aged woman...I was not implying middle aged women should not ride, I was merely pointing out the demographics of their clientele....middle aged, non riders who get a horse, get over their heads, think these charlatans make sense and spend years and tons of money on the ground so they dont actually have to climb in the saddle which alot of them are truly afraid to do....they are ripe for the picking.
Jun. 29, 2012, 06:11 PM
If you have some time, could you post what you saw behind the scenes?
Originally Posted by Tamara in TN
Jul. 1, 2012, 01:30 AM
Never mind behind the scenes, at least as far as my take goes. Watched him at WEG for about 10 minutes- all I could stand, frankly- improperly standing still while sending a horse around him and switching directions constantly- basic lack of knowledge of how to longe a horse properly and basically either clueless or just doesn't care about the crippling torque he puts on the horse's joints with his 'training.'
Used to watch him on tv from time to time, but honestly grew tired of watching him work the snot out of young horses- sweating and heaving as he sits on top saying what he's just accomplished. In fact what he had just accomplished was just frying a horse, mentally and physically.
Back to behind the scenes in passing, if what Tamara has to share is anything like what the Pat P has been known to do over the years, I expect it isn't pretty. But sadly, it's profitable.
Jul. 1, 2012, 09:01 AM
This is who Clinton is teaching to. He has an avid following. Those that love him do and those that don't really don't.
"My primary customer is a middle-aged woman, between 40 and 50 years of age. [Their] kids are out of high school, usually they’re a baby boomer--kids are out of college, they are recreational riders, trail ride. They love their horses. They would like to get along with their horse better and feel more safe and confident when they ride and on the ground."
Clinton doesn't care, what those that are critical think about his methods. No minds will ever be changed here, for those that follow him.
Does he have any tips for teaching the over confident rider; riders with the attitude that than can perform a particular skill when in fact, they can not? He says to tell the student, "... you need to listen to what I have to say. If you don’t agree with it, that’s fine, you don’t have to come back for another lesson. But, if you are here for a lesson, you need to do what I tell you to do and respect what i’m saying because I’m trying to help you." His tone is very matter of fact, and not punitive. "If you don’t want to do that, you won’t hurt my feelings but this is the last lesson we are going to have together." He seems to believe that honesty is the best policy when he says, "Because, otherwise you’re just wasting your time and their money."
Jul. 5, 2012, 04:29 PM
It sounds to me like your basic problem is his lack of respect
for people. I don't think you'll achieve that thru flexing; especially if he takes advantage of you by biting/nibbling, etc. Can you line drive him? That is a great way to school them in a way that commands respect. Of course, there are ways to be a jerk in the lines too.
You probably should start over with ground manners, getting out of you space in the stall, cross ties, etc.
Doing any exercise ineffectively so it opens the door for misbehavior is worse than doing nothing at all.
Originally Posted by JFJ
Jul. 5, 2012, 09:56 PM
Right on. Absolutely.
so you have never seen him live, "behind the scenes" have you?
I have...it's gross
I have not seen him live or behind the scenes. I have seen him on TV, with an obviously 'edited for time' video, in which the horse doesn't get it yet...then skip ahead to where the horse is breathing hard, sweating hard, and doing his level best to get the he!! out of CA's way instantly if CA asks something of him.
My interpretation of this, is that behind the scenes, CA has been doing something over the top, abusive and gross.
I have not ever, ever seen something from CA where he develops a feel with a horse, only ever developing an escape, a 'comply immediately' response from a horse. That kind of training results in a horse with a big callous or numb spot, a horse that might react politely and immediately but never really wants to be with you, just to be with you.
A horse is supposed to follow a feel, not escape the pressure immediately.
All I have ever seen from CA is compliant horses, and no, that is NOT a compliment! That may look, and feel to some folks like the horse is light and responsive, but it is really only the horse getting out of your way, pronto, so you don't hurt him again.
If a horse is following a feel, he is yielding and staying with you, feeling back to you. If he is escaping, he is getting out of your way immediately, and is not staying around mentally so he can feel back to what your intent is. If he doesn't respond to a feel, you can get firm, but if you only ever get firm, you'll never get a feel going.
2 members found this post helpful.
Jul. 6, 2012, 12:09 AM
Fillabeana - If I could "LIKE" your post, I would like it times a thousand You really know what you are talking about. Very very refreshing to hear this POV on COTH (it's not common)
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