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  1. #61
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    Jan. 16, 2003
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    Thanks for posting the link to the video. What about giving him some bute, and then doing another video so you could compare the two? I'm seeing NQR, but I'm not familiar with your horse. It could be where he's at in his training, or the way he carries himself, or he doesn't know that impulsion comes from behind, or something going on with his left hind, (not the foot) maybe higher up (hip?), and I'm not a vet.

    If you see a difference between the two videos, can you have a vet do a preliminary screening based on the first video? I've had a lameness specialist look at a video first, and then when I've brought the horse in, he has an idea of what the problem is.

    Good luck figuring it out. He looks like a sweet horse.
    It's 2014. Do you know where your old horse is?



  2. #62
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Well, I think the tendency in any online horsey BB is to automatically assume the horse is lame. The second tendency is to accuse the owner of horse abuse and get nasty with them when the owner is satisfied that the horse is sound. The third tendency is to state that the rider sucks. Obviously the horse needs to be sound before expected to do any work.

    Since I read where he is green and this is his third time outside I don't care about his steering or his lunging but those are things that will improve with more focus and time.

    I think he looks sound but tense but much better then I thought based on your descriptions. I think it's very easy to confuse a crooked and balky horse with a lame horse and the reverse as well.

    If he doesn't go forward off the mounting block hit him. If he still doesn't go forward hit him harder. Don't tap tap him or talk to him, or keep squeezing him. Hold onto your saddle with both hands so you don't catch him in the face.

    Balking is a very dangerous vice and needs to be dealt with immedietly and without any timidness. Balky horses will ALWAYS get worse before they get better because like any misbehaving horse, if their vice doesn't get them what they want they first try to accelerate it, then they negotiate, then they shape up.

    I personally would feel much more comfortable in an indoor during the beginning stages because you want to feel confident and safe that when you get a response he isn't going to gallop off into the wild blue yonder.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    Well, I watched the other video of him. The one with the standing martingale on. And it says this was after he had bucked someone else off.

    Whoever said this girl should smack him with a dressage whip really has their head some place the sun doesn't shine.

    Smack him with a BAT. If you use a dressage whip, you may well get launched. Then what?????

    Now, really ....

    At this stage I think he needs a better rider/trainer. Sorry.

    ETA: he looks sound, but he has been ridden with a standing martingale by a tense rider that is hanging on his mouth and not riding him forward into a NICE (comfortable for the horse) contact.



  4. #64
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    Aug. 28, 2007
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    Horse is smart and sensitive
    horse is confused and quickens as a response.
    Handler has combustive focal energy that is not "dialed in" for the necessary task.
    kicks with the heels and blocks with the pubic bone.

    I can't tell if the handler/rider's root issue is a lack of confidence with the task, fear, or manifesting chaos from other aspects of their lives and bringing it in the arena. Just watching the lunging makes me tense and nervous sitting in my chair.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  5. #65
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    May. 16, 2008
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    BP,

    I don't think anyone said he should be smacked with a dressage whip, but that he needs to become tolerant of the whip aid and better understand forward. This can/should be a part of groundwork first, limiting the chance of the rider getting launched.

    A horse that doesn't understand/respect the whip won't understand a bat either! I think the chances of getting launched in that case are comparable...

    I agree he needs to be ridden forward in a relaxed manner. I also agree that the rider looks nervous on him, and I think its because she's hesitant to put any pressure on him (including using common aids like the whip), since she may be afraid of angering/setting him off.

    Not a good spot to be in, IMO. The horse needs to respect the handler and the handler needs to have a level of confidence to insist on that respect.

    Good luck, OP. We've all been in cases where things get sticky and we get intimidated. The best thing to do is to work with purpose, confidence, and consistency around the horse. If you are finding this difficult or feel worried, please find a local trainer to help you through this training hump.
    2007 Welsh Cob C X TB GG Eragon
    Our training journal.
    1989-2008 French TB Shamus Fancy
    I owned him for fifteen years, but he was his own horse.



  6. #66
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    I just dont even see anywhere that it says the horse has ever actually been taught what the aids MEAN. They dont just know. They havent read any books

    No dressage whip... No longe whip.. Really, where/how is the bridge? I think he deserves a chance to learn before he gets whacked. Once he understands and if he refuses then yes, time to have a conversation about it. But otherwise, so unfair
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2001
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    NC
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    My, my.
    Aren't ya'll sweet.
    OP, I'd try some ulcerguard to see if it helps, for a few days.
    You and horse obviously understand each other while longeing, though I am a fan of using a whip.
    It seems like you've had a couple of improved rides, so I imagine you are on the right track and possibly are not the she devil of all dressage training.
    Gotgaits, that is a sad story and I'm glad the horse came into your life and you helped him.
    that's all.



  8. #68
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    Actually, not so much if the horse is really balking

    I am downright unpleasant.

    But so many of them, I find, dont actually KNOW what the aids mean.

    Sounds silly but is true. A few minutes on the longe, a few minutes in hand, consistency in both things and then undersaddle the same.. An awful lot of balkers just.stop.balking.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jul. 29, 2006
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    Nashville
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    Can you just hack him out, preferably with someone else?That's what I'd do, just let him learn to carry his body and you at a walk in long straight lines, up and down hills with a loose or very soft, long contact.
    He's really a baby and rather big and lanky. If he were mine, I would not worry about working circles as you are for a year. If you do want to do some arena type work, set up a long side of very low cavalletti and walk and trot him over it, again slow and relaxed (if he wants to stop and step every one for the first 10 times, OK).
    He did not have a good start and I don't think it was his fault or indicates a balky disposition. It sounds like he bucked, which young horses being backed will do, and with bad luck hit your friend in the head.
    I'd concentrate on spending a lot of time with him and simply riding him in a very non-demanding way until he relaxes and develops trust with you and more physical strength.
    As my farrier said when my Trak cross was 4/5ish and wasn't doing advanced stuff, "You're going to be riding him when he's 20, what does a year later now matter?" He is 20 and happy and healthy and very willing.



  10. #70
    Join Date
    Oct. 5, 2008
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    The Wild West
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    Well, I think the tendency in any online horsey BB is to automatically assume the horse is lame. The second tendency is to accuse the owner of horse abuse and get nasty with them when the owner is satisfied that the horse is sound. The third tendency is to state that the rider sucks. Obviously the horse needs to be sound before expected to do any work.

    Since I read where he is green and this is his third time outside I don't care about his steering or his lunging but those are things that will improve with more focus and time.

    .
    Oh brother. I've started enough youngsters to recognize NQR when I see it. And to recognize unhelpful riding when I see it. How rich that you criticize people for giving solicited opinions. Expertise isn't important, eh?

    The horse has been ridden more than 3 times and has a history of behavioral/perhaps medical issues at this young age. His history is normal to you?



  11. #71
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2001
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    Horse Land
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    IMHO you got some good advice from people who told you to be more forceful with this horse. If you keep treating this horse as "my poor baby" and being critical of those who tell you to have it out with the horse, it may end badly.

    Horses are wonderful creatures, but they are REALLY big powerful creatures that need to listen to us or we can get hurt.

    This horse needs to be ridden by a confident, take no bull, rider for 6 months at least. Sounds like you, by your own admission, may not be that person at the moment. I agree with the other poster who said the horse needs to be told not coaxed. There's a reason you were "given" the horse. Nice, well behaved horses are not given away from what i can see.

    Most everyone involved with horses has had/owned a horse that was not a good fit. For your own saftey and the horse's saftey, you may need to think about whether this horse may be better off in a different home/training situation.



  12. #72
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    NE Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I just dont even see anywhere that it says the horse has ever actually been taught what the aids MEAN. They dont just know. They havent read any books

    No dressage whip... No longe whip.. Really, where/how is the bridge? I think he deserves a chance to learn before he gets whacked. Once he understands and if he refuses then yes, time to have a conversation about it. But otherwise, so unfair
    Thank you. I'm worried for the poor OP....these posts are so confusing.

    OP, more than anything you need a qualified instructor. No one can tell you how to train that horse from these boards - you need someone there with you. Hopefully it's someone who will start you both over from the ground....I don't see a good foundation yet in the video and why get on before he's ready?



  13. #73
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    Aug. 28, 2007
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    WHY, y'all would you get more forceful with a nervous and confused horse?
    This looks like a communication issue, not a relationship or physical issue.

    and in the video I watched, I didn't see him refuse to walk off from the block, or balk, he was nervous and choppy.

    I'm with EqT on this one
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  14. #74
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    May. 6, 2007
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    Napanee ON
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I just dont even see anywhere that it says the horse has ever actually been taught what the aids MEAN. They dont just know. They havent read any books

    No dressage whip... No longe whip.. Really, where/how is the bridge? I think he deserves a chance to learn before he gets whacked. Once he understands and if he refuses then yes, time to have a conversation about it. But otherwise, so unfair
    Yeah I knew I would be ripped for not having a lunge whip.

    I just moved and my whip is still at my old place with a lot of my other stuff...have not moved it over yet...guess it will go on the top of the list.

    I don't see where I whacked him? He is trained off the aids. However, he is still pretty green. He (before the balking) moved forward from my leg and responded to leg asking him to move his hindquarters over etc. Walk/trot/turn on forehand.

    I agree he is a bit tense because he is at a new location and he thinks those bushes are pretty scary, overall he felt pretty good under me though. He is still very green and does have a high head carriage.

    I may also look a little stiff, I am wearing a safety vest and riding in my cross country saddle which puts my in a not so desirable position for flat work.

    I agree that I need to ride more forward, this is why I love video because I can see that we are not going as forward as we should be.

    For what it's worth, I am a very confident rider and I have as some posters have said have been walking on eggshells with him a bit which is not normally my style. I guess I am being too soft. I will carry a whip and ride as assertively as I normally would from now on and see where that goes.

    @FatDinah I plan on doing some hacking/cavelletti work once we get going a bit. I do a tonne of that with my other horse. I was always taught circles can help babies as they can be comforting. I have been working on spending lots of time with him for the last 4 months and he is a lot quieter in the barn and to handle

    @Sheasmom - my other guys is on Gastra FX so I will try him on that too and see if there is a difference.



  15. #75
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    May. 6, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Thank you. I'm worried for the poor OP....these posts are so confusing.

    OP, more than anything you need a qualified instructor. No one can tell you how to train that horse from these boards - you need someone there with you. Hopefully it's someone who will start you both over from the ground....I don't see a good foundation yet in the video and why get on before he's ready?
    Forgot to add that I have 2 lessons this coming weekend with my trainer. I can only ride with her once a month since she comes down from out of town to coach in the area. I have been lessoning on my other horse but going to change the focus onto William for a while. I will most likely video the lesson and am very interested in hearing what she has to say about him.



  16. #76
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    Feb. 28, 2008
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    I haven't read past halfway down page one, and I haven't seen a video. Just wanted to pop in with my 2¢ though, as I lived a similar nightmare.

    I was looking for a project horse and picked up one with a bad history of very little riding, poor start in life, chronic bucker, had flipped, aggressive. Looked sound as a dollar at all 3 gates and seemed to have heart in there someplace, so I took on the challenge.

    Had my vet go over him the day after he arrived and we all agreed he was fine.

    Horse was a confirmed balker too, so assuming he didn't know squat we started from scratch.

    A few months into training, horse was obedient on the ground, balker ONLY WITH A RIDER UP. Western saddle, fit quite well. Aggression only got me broncing from a standstill, so I did the patience/wait him out thing. In the end that worked, and after about a year I had a horse that would move off my leg and was more or less obedient, but the tendency to buck and get out from under the rider, was always there. Extreme naughty behavior would surface once in a while. I never felt safe or relaxed on this horse, and only once in a while would horse feel really happy to be ridden.

    Fast forward 3 years now. I've been having a strong nagging NQR feeling about the horse all along, have had my vet go over him 2 more times, had two chiropractors and acupuncturists work on him, nobody can find a thing wrong with him. He is more or less obedient, more or less well behaved, but lessons are short lived, I feel like I have to repeat myself more than needed especially with a horse that picks up everything on the ground so quickly. I'm convinced there is something wrong, but horse appears sound as a dollar, athletic, even, flexible, supple. Just isn't a happy horse with a rider on its back... always a bit sneaky, always ready to balk, taking any opportunity to get the rider off its back. I feel like I'm riding a ticking time bomb and I can't shake the feeling.

    I finally decide it has to be me - over the years, finding myself being thankful no one got hurt over and over and over, the horse had chipped away my confidence - and hire a pro to ride the horse. She gets the horse to go, and stays on through his antics, but the horse is furious. After 3 days of riding, otherwise pocket-pony horse refuses to be caught to go work. This is the last straw for me, and I ask my vet out to do a 4th evaluation on this horse. I beg her to xray his back, he had flipped in his first year under saddle with his former owner. Xray reveals broken withers.

    He.had.been.in.pain.all.that.time.

    All the bucking, all the carrying on, with me, with the former owner. YEARS of him protesting as loud as he could, refusing to walk forward, how much more obvious could he have made things? Nobody caught it. Vets. DVM Chiropractors. Acupuncturists. Trainers. Observers. No one saw a horse in pain. He never sunk his back away, never said "ouch" as *we* recognize it. He would just get pissed and lash out, that was his way.

    He is now a driving horse and sweet as pie, happy as a clam, thrilled with his new job.

    Just need to share this, YEARS of my life could have been saved if only I had followed my hunch early on and had him xrayed instead of listening to all the people around me who said "he's just a jerk. He learned to be bad", etc.

    What really broke my heart was when I looked back on how far we'd come and realized I'd trained him to accept the pain. I'd trained him to deal with it, and he did it best he could until he just couldn't take it any more.

    Good luck
    Just because you’re afraid, doesn’t mean you’re in danger. Just because you feel alone, doesn’t mean nobody loves you. Just because you think you might fail, doesn’t mean you will.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #77
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    Nov. 16, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jealoushe View Post
    Forgot to add that I have 2 lessons this coming weekend with my trainer. I can only ride with her once a month since she comes down from out of town to coach in the area. I have been lessoning on my other horse but going to change the focus onto William for a while. I will most likely video the lesson and am very interested in hearing what she has to say about him.
    That sounds like a good plan. Talk to her about your ground work and see what she can do to to help you give him some more confidence.

    And I think people were telling you to whack him, not that anyone thought you did. I hope you don't follow that advice - he's too green to go down that road!

    Keep us posted on your progress!



  18. #78
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    OP, I didnt say you DID whack him. I said from what I can tell from your posts, he has not necessarily been started correctly and therefore you should NOT whack him until he has been.

    You are assuming this horse understands the aids. I am not so sure he does. I have started lots of horses but maybe more importantly for you, i have restarted many too, and horses who dont go forward get the refresher course before a whooping. Look... I dont mind coming to Jesus AFTER I have done my homework. 99% of the time, once they understand, they are happy to comply. BUT if you go after a horse before they understand WHY you are doing it, the result is unpredictable at best and dangerous at worst.. AND they still havent learned anything at all but to be scared of you.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  19. #79
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    buck22....I'm so glad you stuck with that horse and figured him out. Also glad you listened to your gut and kept searching and got and answer....sometimes it's not a quick process. Where is that horse now?



  20. #80
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    Feb. 28, 2008
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    If I had gone for xrays initially I would have saved us both a lot of grief. As it happens, the horse taught me volumes, mostly how to listen. Its a fine line though. For a long time I felt like - and still do sometimes feel like - a hypochondriac for my horse I've become hyper sensitive to possibility of pain.

    Horse is still with me. He dies with me.

    I would love to rehome him, I miss riding, but the problem with him is he *looks* and *acts* sound. He rolls, leaps, plays, does airs above ground. You can poke him, prod him, throw a saddle on him and cut him in two with the girth. He never says "ouch". Will stand like a rock at the mounting block and moves forward nicely now. He actually rounds very nicely, I've since learned he learned how to carry a rider for the least amount of pain. Only sign of discomfort from him is a head toss he will give when the rider dismounts, thats it. With the right saddle and padding, its even possible to have a halfway enjoyable ride on him, but he's not enjoying it.

    There is no guarantee that someone else won't try to ride him down the road, he's a cute mover and great jumper too, too much temptation. I suffer so much guilt over trying to ride a horse with a broken back, I cannot bear even the possibility of him having to live this sad story all over again at someone else's ignorance. So he can never leave me.

    He taught me about nutrition, he taught me about saddle fit, he taught me about patience and he taught me a lot about myself. He's now teaching me how to teach a horse how to drive.
    Just because you’re afraid, doesn’t mean you’re in danger. Just because you feel alone, doesn’t mean nobody loves you. Just because you think you might fail, doesn’t mean you will.


    2 members found this post helpful.

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