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  1. #1
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    Here is the link

    “Amateur” Status Doesn’t Work In Eventing

    Janet
    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  2. #2
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Here is the link

    “Amateur” Status Doesn’t Work In Eventing

    Janet
    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  3. #3
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  4. #4
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    Ditto!!

    -Member of the Short Stubby Leg Clique-



  5. #5
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    Well said. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    ~AJ~
    If you're big-star bound let me warn ya it's a long hard ride.
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~



  6. #6
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    YES. I see this issue becoming very political, especially with the power people in OUR sport now being leaders in USEF -- it's going to be an embarrassment if eventing doesn't embrace the USEF's amateur rule. Look for a surreptitious implementation of the rule in the next few years in eventing unless, as Kate says, the leadership listens to us 70-Percenters and tries to do the fair thing. And let's not kid ourselves. The amateur rule doesn't work in hunters and jumpers very well, either. It's definition is so unenforceable. Non-professional is better IMHO.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  7. #7
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    Hooray Kate! I totally agree.

    Look at all of the angst and nonsense the "amateur rule" brings to the hunter/jumper world. Do we really want that? NO WAY!



  8. #8
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    Most of you know where I stand on the amateur status issue, so I'm not going to make further comment on that specifically. However, I do want to correct an inaccuracy that Kate mentions on more than one occassion in her article. She first mentions it here:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 3. Riders who compete below the preliminary level are not required to be members of the USEF and are therefore bound only by those USEF rules that are printed in the USEA rulebook. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>While it is true that riders below Preliminary are not required to be members of the USEF (for that matter, neither are riders above Preliminary), they are subject to all applicable rules and bylaws of the USEF, not just those contained in Rule XVII. If you have any doubt about this, read the back of your event entry forms. You know, that fine print that most of us say we are going to read some day, but never get around to it.

    By signing the entry form, anyone entering a USEF endorsed (BN, N, and most T) or recognized (some T, P, I, A, and three days) competition agrees to be bound by the rules of the USEF. Notice it does not exclude non-members. Also notice it does not limit the applicable rules to just Rule XVII.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?



  9. #9
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    Very well said! Thanks!



  10. #10
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    As canterlope siad, there are some errors about the rules. In addition to the error about the whole rule book applying to eventers, the article is wrong about the divisions. The curent diisions are
    "Junior Novice", Open Novice", and "Novice Rider", etc,
    Not "Open Novice" and regular "Novice".
    That was 2003.

    As with canterlope, you already know my opinions on this.

    Janet
    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  11. #11
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    Thanks Canterlope... you beat me to the correction. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    ************
    If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

    "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike



  12. #12
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    good. I was wondering what in the blue sky "regular" Novice was. http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif



  13. #13
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    the article says:

    "The Adult Amateur Rider of the Year could easily be designated the Adult Rider of the Year. Rider of the Year clearly refers to premier riders with points in the triple or quadruple digits and could be called Premier Rider of the Year."

    So would it be the less successful pros against the amateurs for the 'Rider of the Year' award?

    As stated by others all USEF rules apply. I beleive that is where all or most of the drug related rules are.

    As stated in many of these debates the whole Amateur division would be optional to both organizers and competitors. If a N or T rider didn't care about being eligible for an Amateur division, they wouldn't have to have a USEF card.



  14. #14
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    Interesting article and comments. It has made me see this problem in a way I hadn't before. We have three classes of people in eventing: Amateur, Professional and "Non-professionals." The rules are screwed up because they are trying to define the three classes with only two designations.

    I don't think many "true amateurs" would be unhappy to compete against "nonprofessionals." I think it would work if you could figure out the delineation between Non-professionals and professional. So where would you put the guidelines be to define a "non-professional?"



  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Look for a surreptitious implementation of the rule in the next few years in eventing unless, as Kate says, the leadership listens to us 70-Percenters and tries to do the fair thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No surreptitious implementation of the rule in the next few years is necessary, retreadeventer. We are already bound by the current amateur status rule.

    I have to admit that I have some problems with Kate's article, and not just because she presents a point of view different from my own. In addition to the misinformation it contains, I also have an issue with the fact that she referenced the work of the Amateur Status Committee, but she never contacted any member of that committee to verify her facts.

    I also have an issue with publically berating a member of the committee without having contacted that individual and allowing him to present his point of view concurrent with the publication of her article. Or, at the very least, giving this individual and the rest of the committee members a heads up that the article was even being published.

    Maybe I just have to face facts and realize that I'm not as grown-up as I though I was in that I feel a bit like a horse that was led to water, asked to drink, and then smacked on the head when I took a sip. All of us on that committee put in a great deal of time and hard work for over a year trying to come up with a viable means of defining and regulating amateur status within the sport of eventing and the rules of our National Governing Body. When we presented our findings, not only were we raked across the hot coals then, but now we get to be publically accused of demeaning hard working and dedicated amateurs (of which I consider myself one) in addition to having our commitment to addressing the needs and desires of our adult riders called into question.

    If anyone needs me, I'll be out back eating a can of worms.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?



  16. #16
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    canterlope,

    Even though _I_ don't agreee with quite a few of the findings, I DO appreciate the work that went into it.

    The whole thing is a "can of worms" The committee opened it, but no need to eat it!

    Janet
    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  17. #17
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    Have to ditto what Janet said... on all accounts! Canterlope... you know we luv ya -- but you'd be pushing it if you show up with stinky worm breath! http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...s/winkgrin.gif Back away from the worms...

    ************
    If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

    "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike



  18. #18
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    “the problem is that, basically, everybody believes the...line should be right above them,”

    This is exactly what the problem is folks. Would it make Kate happier if, instead of "amateur" and "open," the terms "just barely competent rider" and "very competent rider" were used? Then everybody could get a ribbon. Oh goody!

    Good God, this topic has been beaten to death in a thread several months ago. Are we going to start all over again? The amateur rule is what we have, folks, and until it can be rewritten to satisfy the (according to Kate) legions of dissatisfied people, it's legally what we've got to go on.

    (And by the way, Kate, the USEA "rulebook" you refer to is - as the title page states - just a reprint of pertinent USEF rules in a larger font and more portable format.)

    Swizzle Stick



  19. #19
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    Hear hear Kate for taking your editorial (which is what it was) straight to the people. I don't personally see any inaccuracies in her facts other than:
    1) the no USEF rules apply below Prelim (how did she miss that?) comment. USEA rules are a subsection of USEF rules and HT at Prelim and above are USEF & USEA recognized. Plus you have to be a member of both to compete Prelim and above.

    2)The new rule book no longer provides for novice rider/novice horse designations, only novice is being used and rarely at that!


    As Kate correctly points out organizers need to realize that even though they think they are catering to the professionals by lumping everyone in the same group (open novice) at some point there is usually a non-professional/adult/{and in some cases} amateur stroking the final check - whether they actually get around to riding their own horse or not.

    I am happy to report that Rocking Horse offered the Novice and Training (maybe even Prelim) divisions in addition to the open divisions! {Not that it did this adult ammy anygood since I did a CCI ** almost two years ago and finished close to last and never competed any higher (nor will ever ride that high again).} I had take my new greenie in Open Novice filled with red coats!!!

    But at least they offered it {and it was very full}....Kate's point was that last year very few organizers even bothered...hopefully more will see the point this year!!!!

    I don't think there needs to be an incentive...only enough entries to make a reasonable size division.

    As far a year end awards...I hate to burst Kate's bubble and open another can of worms, but as currently written "adult rider" is not defined by USEA (nor USEF) so we have no age guidelines ( before or after Young rider cutoff) or exclusions for Pro's. Technically, Karen O'Connor could be an adult rider (not that she would want to be)....

    What about the way they do it in ice skating where you "turn pro", anyone wearing a red coat in the last ___ {fill in the blank} years...is automaticlly a pro, as is anyone else with ____
    points on the pro leaderboard for inter and advanced (or even down to Prelim)...whatever just so it is clear.

    Just please don't raise the fees!!! And don't implement an amateur rule on behalf of 70% of the membership that wouldn't satisfy even half of those people....



  20. #20
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2)The new rule book no longer provides for novice rider/novice horse designations, only novice is being used and rarely at that! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Read the 2004 rule book. Novice Rider IS there, though not Novice Horse.

    There is NO "Novice".

    The official divisons are
    Junior Novice
    Novice Rider
    Open Novice.

    Janet
    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



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