[Tiffani B]

This study on using various types of weights on the hind limbs of horses was just published in The American Journal of Veterinary Research.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19064

Very interesting!

[Amwrider]

Any saddle seat trainer knows this, LOL.

[mayfieldk]

First study used six horses, the second study used nine.

Hardly a 'study'.

[War Admiral]

First study used six horses, the second study used nine.

Hardly a 'study'.

Well, the Equine Veterinary Journal and the American Journal of Veterinary Research, which published the studies, might beg to differ with you on that. But I'm sure they'll welcome a letter from you debunking the studies with concrete evidence. I'd like to read one, that's for sure.

[mayfieldk]

You think that six horses--or nine--statistically, is enough to conclude ANYthing from?

[War Admiral]

You think that six horses--or nine--statistically, is enough to conclude ANYthing from?

Well, I certainly know how to add 6 + 9 and get 15... And then factor in the THOUSANDS of ASBs and Morgans that have been trained in exactly this way over almost a century... And the h/j trainers I know who also use the method... But hey, I'm always open to opposing views. State your facts and your sources, and let's go!

[Tiffani B]

You think that six horses--or nine--statistically, is enough to conclude ANYthing from?

Interestingly enough, I read the fine print around one of Merial's equine studies, I believe on GG (can't remember for sure) and one of the study groups had 12 horses. I think another group had 3? I remember thinking, huh, they can claim what they claim based on THAT?

[starrunner]

Horse studies usually have an extremely small "n" value. They are kind of expensive you know. Pull up any of the other horse related research and take a peek.

Edited to state I just pulled up a few peer reviewed studies (getting off track from my Brucella LPS antigen presentation articles I'm supposed to be finding...), but wanted to share, one had a n=5, another n=9, and a third was n=4.

[mayfieldk]

Well, I certainly know how to add 6 + 9 and get 15... And then factor in the THOUSANDS of ASBs and Morgans that have been trained in exactly this way over almost a century... And the h/j trainers I know who also use the method... But hey, I'm always open to opposing views. State your facts and your sources, and let's go!

You read through my post for things that weren't there so you could pick a fight.

I never said anything about if it worked or didn't--all I said was that they couldn't conclude anything from nine horses.

I'm aware that a lot of horse studies are done with very few horses, which is why I roll my eyes over most of them. I understand it's expensive, but unfortunately that doesn't mean you can magically conclude things from a small n group just because that's all you can get your hands on.

[Guilherme]

From what I read the study concludes that you can vary a horse's gait with very light weight devices. Frankly, this is no surprise to anybody with some time around Walkser, Park Horses, etc.

Perhaps the difference is that in the study they were seeking to find out the best ways to develop therapudic methods to address problems in movement vice cosmetic changes to win blue ribbons. Another bit of common knowledge is that when the devices are removed the gait will ultimately return to its "native" state. The only way to keep the change is to keep the devices on.

Done under proper supervision this may be a valuable therapy for some horses. This conclusion is clearly supported by the findings (and is no surprise). But done inartfully it can cripple an animal (as, again, anybody from the Walker or Saddle Seat world knows).

It will be interesting to see where the study goes next.

G.

[Amwrider]

done inartfully it can cripple an animal (as, again, anybody from the Walker or Saddle Seat world knows).

.

Please don't lump all saddle seat with what the walkers do.

I know of no Morgans, saddlebred, arabs. etc. that have been crippled by the use of chains or cuffs.

[Tiffani B]

Cripple????? Exaggerate much?

[tradewind]

Oh for goodness sakes, is it possible to have some civility? The study was done, published and is available for reading. The fact that a similar technique is used in certain show horses without vet supervision does not negate the study. As a person who spent three years and considerable sums of money attempting to rehab a horse with serious hind end problems, I for one, am interested in reading published studies in vet journals that might be of interest or help to me...This does not have to degenerate into nastiness and mud slinging on the pads, weights, no pad no weights show horse debate.

[Guilherme]

Cripple????? Exaggerate much?

Actually, no.

G.

[GaitedGloryRider]

Cripple????? Exaggerate much?

I've known quite a few permanently lame gaited horses that would consider "cripple" an accurate summation of their current state, and how they got there through crappy training practices and over-use of of action devices or illegal action devices.

Nope, not an exaggeration.

[Tiffani B]

I don't believe gaited horses (i.e. TWH) wear action devices behind - their focus is all up front. But I don't know - I've never been around them, only ASBs and other trotting, non-gaited breeds.

And since this study is on the hind limbs, not the front, and uses light chains, not the heavy chains used on gaited horses, and is on trotting horses, not gaited horses, I'm not sure why you are bringing the gaited world and their abuses into this, other than to start an argument.

Regardless, I've never seen an ASB, Arab, Morgan, NSH or other trotting, non-gaited Saddle Seat horse "crippled" by the use of action devices. Muscle soreness from a good hard workout, sure. Some hair rubs, sure (I've seen those from plain old bell boots, too). Crippled/lame? Never.

So ok, you've seen some gaited horses crippled by the training techniques and devices used in the gaited world. As horrible and sad as that is, it does not apply here.

[pattnic]

You think that six horses--or nine--statistically, is enough to conclude ANYthing from?

It is possible to achieve statistical significance from a small sample population - without tweaking the numbers. Of course, you still have to be able to repeat it. (In this instance, I am pretty sure that the results *are* reproducible... as others have pointed out, similar devices have been used by trotting saddleseat breeds for ages with a like result).

[CR Gorge Girl]

It is possible to achieve statistical significance from a small sample population - without tweaking the numbers. Of course, you still have to be able to repeat it. (In this instance, I am pretty sure that the results *are* reproducible... as others have pointed out, similar devices have been used by trotting saddleseat breeds for ages with a like result).

Exactly.

And as someone else said, horse study N's tend to be small (both in numbers and they often use ponies because they are easier/cheaper to keep). Looking up journal articles in class was yeilding us sample sizes of 12 (6 control, 6 variable), 14, ect. Nothing really big.

[Tiffani B]

Pattnic, I have to go OT and say I LOVE your sig! ROFL!