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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2000
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    Default Question regarding Amateur status

    Is this legal?

    Individual is declared as an Amateur and is competing in Amateur divisions at shows. Her mounts are horses sent to her on consignment from Germany. She is recording them with USEF and USDF in her name, competing them as an Amateur, then selling them a year or so later. She is sending agreed upon price back to owner in Germany and pocketing the difference.

    IOW, let’s say the owner in Germany wants $20K for the horse. The “amateur” imports the horse, houses it at her farm, pays all upkeep and show expenses, etc., then sells the horse at some point for $50K. She sends the owner $20K and pockets the $30K difference.

    Does this practice not make her a professional?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 20, 2009
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    Default

    Technically she is meeting the rule requirements from the sounds of things. Her horse, her expense, etc.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2010
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    Default

    It probably depends on how their agreement works.
    h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR1306.2d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a paid agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the purpose of sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a member of his/her family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she or a member of his/her family controls.
    If there's a legal agreement in which ownership is changed and payment is due in one year, she could be amatuer. If there's a contract in which she gets sales commission after a year of her training/working the horse and ownership hasn't changed hands, then she's definitely not an amateur.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 23, 2010
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    Lancashire UK, formerly Region 8
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    Default

    Unless there's some kind of commission being received, and the horses are not actually her own, then it sounds like she's abiding by the rules... in practice if not in spirit. Seems like it's arranged as an installment purchase of the horses from the original buyer rather than a professional sales ride.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2002
    Location
    Delaware, Ohio, USA
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    227

    Default

    USEF has a way that you can anonymously ask your questions for the situation you are describing.

    Contact them at: amateurinquiry@usef.org.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2006
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    8,929

    Default

    If her agreement with the German party is such that she is actually legally a part owner of the horse, then yes, this is amateur-legal.


    If she is never legally a part-owner of the horse vis a vis their agreement (so German party could just take the horse whenever because she doesn't actually own any of it) and she is just passing on a sales check and taking a cut, then no, not amateur-legal.



  7. #7
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    It probably depends on how their agreement works.

    If there's a legal agreement in which ownership is changed and payment is due in one year, she could be amatuer. If there's a contract in which she gets sales commission after a year of her training/working the horse and ownership hasn't changed hands, then she's definitely not an amateur.
    To clarify - she is not buying the horses, she is taking them on consignment. The German owner still retains the Certificates of Ownership (VERY few NA buyers know about these docs or care about them, but they are the OFFICIAL documents regarding ownership in Germany). Furthermore, the "amateur" never files a Change of Ownership form with the registries.

    AFAIK, there is no hard and fast agreement about when payment is due. Rider and owner are - ahem, "good friends". He doesn't care that she is recording horses with USEF/USDF in her own name or showing them as their "owner", all he cares about is that he doesn't have them on his payroll anymore and he does get paid when they sell. She is a talented amateur and she has garnered quite a few amateur awards with the horses, which definitely helps attract buyers.

    They seem to have worked out a sweet deal that benefits both of them, but I was just curious as to whether it met the "Amateur" requirements for USEF.



  8. #8
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberta View Post
    USEF has a way that you can anonymously ask your questions for the situation you are describing.

    Contact them at: amateurinquiry@usef.org.
    Thanks, I will check it out.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2008
    Location
    Central Oklahoma
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    3,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    To clarify - she is not buying the horses, she is taking them on consignment. The German owner still retains the Certificates of Ownership (VERY few NA buyers know about these docs or care about them, but they are the OFFICIAL documents regarding ownership in Germany). Furthermore, the "amateur" never files a Change of Ownership form with the registries.

    AFAIK, there is no hard and fast agreement about when payment is due. Rider and owner are - ahem, "good friends". He doesn't care that she is recording horses with USEF/USDF in her own name or showing them as their "owner", all he cares about is that he doesn't have them on his payroll anymore and he does get paid when they sell. She is a talented amateur and she has garnered quite a few amateur awards with the horses, which definitely helps attract buyers.

    They seem to have worked out a sweet deal that benefits both of them, but I was just curious as to whether it met the "Amateur" requirements for USEF.

    Sounds like a full lease situation where the rider leases a horse from a friend, assums all expenses regarding to the horse, and will sell the horse in the future for a profit to recoupe whatever expenses that might occur, and makes a profit if one exists.

    In this situaion, I don't count her as a broker, which will break her amateur status but as is, it seems legit amateur status. NO?



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr. 15, 2008
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    Default

    Just wondering how she can register the horses in her name with USEF/USDF without some evidence of ownership. I know when I've registered horses I provided a bill of sale and/or breed registration papers showing me as the owner.

    If she has some evidence of ownership (I don't know about the lease situation) then it sounds legit to me. Lucky her, sounds like a sweet deal.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    Default

    If she is NOT the owner, is taking them on consignment, and representing them as her own, sounds like no way is she an amateur, but what is very commonly called a shamateur and breaking all the rules - and it sounds like breaking all the rules for a very tidy profit!!
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr. 11, 2001
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    Tennessee
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by atlatl View Post
    Just wondering how she can register the horses in her name with USEF/USDF without some evidence of ownership. I know when I've registered horses I provided a bill of sale and/or breed registration papers showing me as the owner.

    If she has some evidence of ownership (I don't know about the lease situation) then it sounds legit to me. Lucky her, sounds like a sweet deal.
    Owners have to be members of the USEF to be listed as owners. In the recent ownership dispute involving Peter Atkins and is horse HJ Hampton his partner was left off the ownership in registration because she didn't want to cough up the bucks to join the USEF. It was made clear in the lawsuit that registration was not a reflection of legal ownership and I think all parties (well, Peter and the USEF) were fine with that.

    I suspect that IF (and you wouldn't know unless you saw the agreement) the amateur involved is not doing the deal in accordance to the rules it wouldn't be hard to tweak the agreement with to make her compliant.



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