I got them from the same place but I ordered 200 so it cost $350.00 plus shipping express. I wouldn't suggest buying them without the white second color. The recessed print is almost invisible as far as being able to read it. It's well worth the extra $.25.
There is another place where you can get them silk screened and they're cheaper but I haven't had time to find it again.
Anyway please let me know who wants them. I did receive two checks but they don't request any bracelets so I put that into the fund.
\"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E
Exactly War Admiral, that's what Pwynn meant. We have to start to be proactive if we don't want that kind of environment in our sport. And, we have to be as diligent in following through as they are in being delinquent in their attitudes.
Taking a quick break from a MOUNTAIN of work here...
I want to address the sense of "why bother" that I see cropping up.
I can understand the frustration; I can understand the feeling that it won't make things any different for the people who are suspended; I can understand all of it. I cannot understand condoning the actions, nor can I accept that it's so widespread as to be generally accepted to defraud insurance companies by maiming or killing an innocent animal.
But the MOST important reason, for me, that I put some time into this is simple: I want to be able to answer with honesty, to anyone who asks, that I truly do love my sport and my horse, and that I respect the effort that goes into it.
I cannot respect it if I think that it is ONLY populated by people with no concern or love for the animals, if I think that all trainers are out to win at any cost and that all owners will rip off insurors in a heartbeat. And if I don't believe that, then I feel I have an obligation to support my beliefs with action.
Will PV apply to reinstated? I don't know. Will he be reinstated if he does apply? Again, I don't know. I know that right now, I have some differences of opinion with USEF, and am choosing to put my support and money elsewhere...but whether or not I join again WILL in part be determined by how they treat this issue should it arise. The one reinstatement - of which I was unaware until the boards mentioned it - already has me deeply concerned.
Again...it's not a personal vendetta against anyone. I wouldn't know any of these people if I fell over them. BUT, I do NOT respect what they did. And I do believe that actions have consequences, and some of those consequences are lifelong. I can see that something to feel sorry about (that they have to live under a cloud, as it were), or as a shame, or as anything I want...but the consequences remain.
The people involved in the horse killing scandals were not unaware of the illegality of their actions, regardless of how THEY viewed the morality of them, and they should not have been unaware of the fact that those actions carried consequences that could follow them for life. They made a choice, perhaps one they truly regret, but whether or not they'd make the same choice today doesn't change the past. They did what they did, and have to live with it.
The sport, however, does NOT need to accept what they did. We don't like to think this today, but some things are NOT acceptable, nor are the forgettable (not "forgiveable" because that is not for me to judge). It is because of that belief that I support No Reinstatement. Because if we all just throw up our hands and say "what's the use" we will imo have lost not just the respect of those outside our sport - who would be justified in wondering that such a thing isn't seen as horrific - but we would lose our self-respect, too.
My thought, or question rather, not to be redundant,but.. was what others have asked: "where is the line?"
Who hasn't done something they've regretted, who hasn't suffered the consequences of a mistake. Yes, you learn from those mistakes and, in some, in many, instances you get a second chance. However, sometimes, that mistake is so big... and consciously made and is so, so inexcusable.
Well, what's a lifetime suspension for, if not for that? I don't even want to know...
This was nothing less than greed, cruelty and self-absorption (is that a word?) of the worst kind.
I'm not saying this would be an excuse, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) nobody involved was in some sort of terrible, back-against-the-wall crisis, the kind where panic and desperation make an otherwise good and moral person make a terrible, terrible, one-time mistake...
No, there's a time when it's "you f***** up and you're done."
I can't imagine being able to come, being able to stand coming within sight of a horse if I had participated in something like that. The desire to continue on riding and practicing a trade within the industry after that... there's a big disconnect there... I guess. I'd ask, If you owned up to doing wrong, was it only because you got caught?
TL the line is very clear and unwaivering. Those who have been convicted or confessed to killing horses to benefir themselves or their clients financially.
The 2nd level is those who have defrauded horse owners of their right to be paid what their horses were sold for less a reaonable commission. Many of these horses wound up in horrible condition and some have not yet been found. Those convicted by a court and who have a court order prohibiting them from further engagement in this sport at least during te years of their parole should also be banned for life. These are not undefinable these are people who have been convicted and confessed their guilt in a Court of Law. The USEF has no right to refuse to enforse this court order. It does have the proved right to keep unsavory people out of this sport.
The line is a conviction in a court of law. I am personally offended that someone convicted and sitting in jail can be listed as a Member in Good Standing. If our predessers were derelict in their responsibilities it is no excuse for us not to try and fix it for the future.
I'm glad that all of you are so quick cry "witch" at me, when i am honestly telling you I TRIED EVERYTHING to get this case brought to attention. And for someone to have the nerve to tell me I'm no better than the people who committed these crimes?!?!!?!?! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME!!!! I called the police, they told me to go to the insurance company, so i went directly to the insurance company, and spoke with them about this case and every exact detail on it, and they treated me like I was outstepping my boundaries, and they threatened me that basically if I don't back off they were going to slap a slander suit on me...I'm sorry...but where do I go from there? The bottomw line is, if the police or other authorities were to get involved, and they went to the Insurance Co. and the insurance co. says everything is legit, the trail will end there. I tried to tell the company they were being had, I talked to the adjuster on the claim, i sent her specific conversations that were held between the owner of the horse and I... I told her every detail I could. She never called back, she never did anything. The owner got her money. The horse is dead, I, and everyone else that knew the situation, did everything we felt we could... It's really easy for all of you to sit here and tell me i did this wrong and that wrong...You think you could get farther fine...PT me and I'll give you all the details and evidence and you can take it on yourself, but don't you dare tell me that I am no better than the people who committed this crime, because you have no idea the pain i went through and the lengths I would have gone to to save that horse.
Serah, I'm sorry it sounded that way. What you did was much more than most have done and I respect your effort. It is tough to fight the establishment that protects such goings on. Probably because it was only $15.000 it was cheaper for them to pay rather than to argue.
I know how you feel, I've been taking abuse for years because I won't just roll over and play nice. Now I'm old enough not to care about being popular; I just want to help right things that are wrong.
I got stung at the convention because I trusted the establishment and I really believed they cared.
Snowbird: my own first rule is that one should never never never trust organizations, even when they are made up of individuals that you trust. Organizations will always behave in a way to protect themselves, save themselves work and grief, and minimize input from troublesome outsiders. To be effective in this, our attitude has to be "We cannot be shuffled aside, we will not play nice, we will not go away, and we will remember who in the organizations obstructed us when we are able to make our voice heard." That is the only approach that works. When those of you interact with people from USEF or other equine organizations, start taking reporters with you.
No reinstatement, and no prisoners, either.
I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09
Hi, new here. Was scolling thru the 50+ pages of this thread and at some point read a comment about making this not just a US issue. Just wanted to let you all know that I signed the petition, sent it to all my contacts(¬ just horse people) & they have signed. We're from Canada & all very familiar with the PV (& others issue). Many of us have spent winters at WEF & have opinions of how 'business has continued & prospered despite' for PV. Your petition has our full support.
Serah, I'd certainly feel a little jaded if I had done what you did. Good for you for taking action. How sad and pathetic that the insurance company didn't do anything. It actually shocks me as the few times I've known insurance companies to deal with insured horses that are badly hurt, they take great precautions to ensure it is a valid claim.
Don't let that one insurance company's behavior stop you from trying to protect horses.
We are invincible if we have courage. We are the horse shows. Maybe not the "elite" but I don't think I want to play in their sandbox. Alone none of us can be successful but together as a group we can accomplish everything we dream to make the world better for our horses.
As a bottom feeder I look to see where the horse is happy and what he is comfortable doing. If you find that you can have a star both rider and horse. It's when you over reach that all the evil things happen. A family loves everyone some are smarter some are prettier but they are all family. I do the same with students. What horses love is to teach. They teach manners and sportsmanship and love and respect for each person. They help the helpless and and have a contest with the know-it-alls. That's why I love them.
It is wrong to misuse them. The people who do are as cruel as those who abuse the less talented, the less intelligent and the less beautiful people.
Originally posted by Serah:
I just don't understand, why, when you say your focus is for these poor horses that died, why instead of focusing this campaign on horses that are already dead, people that have already been sentenced..WHY dont you turn the focus on things that are still happening... Horses that are STILL being killed for insurance money? Veterinarians that are still illegally signing Death Certificates?!?!? It's beginning to look like there is a personal grudge behind all this, Why dont you focus on saving horses that are still alive? Preventing this from reoccuring??
Well if you make the penalties for committing these offenses severe enough, you set a precedent that has the possibility of preventing future offences. Besides- can you do two things at once, just because one issue is being addressed does not mean the other one is not. How would you advise prevention? Education? How about making the consequences have some actual negative effects?
Sometimes going forward is as simple as never going backward.
Originally posted by Serah:
I'm glad that all of you are so quick cry "witch" at me, when i am honestly telling you I TRIED EVERYTHING to get this case brought to attention.
I am sure you did what you could, however was there proof? Other than your word against someone elses? Tangible proof, photos, tape recordings anything like that? If not, and if the insurance amount was not a great deal of money the liklihood of the insurance company delving into it further is slim to none. However I don't know that it means none of them cared or believed you, but they knew they had nothing to go forward on. That is unfortunatly a very harsh reality. Good for you for trying, I know it is hard to stomach but I do have to nelieve that some day these people will get thiers.
Sometimes going forward is as simple as never going backward.
Originally posted by big dawg:
And I am against animal abuse...I am a breeder and own horses that I am very partial to on lots of levels...I care about my animals, and wish others would feel the same way--but they don't and that probably includes half the USEF membership--the city dwellers who just come out in their expensive SUV, get on the horse that the groom has all prepared and that the trainer beat the prior two days because it wouldn't go for the lady because she is such a bad rider--then she takes her lesson, hops off, hands it back to the groom, maybe feeds it a couple of carrots, then off to shopping with her friend.
You are a breeder? Do you keep all of them? Do you sell them? Do they possibly go to the very people you are berating- the SUV driving, city dwelling, groomed horse, bad riding, trainer beating people? Do you ensure that you are not contributing to the problem by providing more of these animals and profiting from the sale of them to these lesson taking, carrot feeding shoppers? Or do you place each animal in a situation that provides properly (according to you) for them until the day they die?
Don't get me started on this H/J industry. I am a jumper rider for over 25 years. I know how it is. And I don't mean to condemn all the owners and riders, as there are many just like me who are always trying to do the right thing. But we have far more problems in this industry than these 2 doaen or so people, who no doubt will never do anything like this again, and who could serve as a voice in this industry as they have done something they are ashamed of and perhaps if around to tell others just may keep someone else from doing something similar.
Oh if only they were ashamed, if only they had the moral convictions to admit with sincerety the complete betrayal of the animals and people they were charged with looking after. Absolutely, if any of them truly had some genuine remorse, not for getting caught - but for the actual act itself and had repented in some way then maybe they could serve some greater good. However, with PV he has done exactly what he needed to do to comply with the letter of the ruling, but not its intent, he has made a show of his self serving generosity. He has shown people what he thinks they need and want to see, this is what a con man does, this is why he got into the trouble that he did. Make no mistake he did not freefall into this horse killing, he was waltzing down a trecherous slope that led him there. There were many, many misdeeds along the way, lies told, tracks to be covered, unholy alliances made, deals with the devil all so he could get what HE wanted at the expense of anyone and anything. He had no line that he didn't cross. How can you state that they will no doubt never do it again? Are you willing to risk it? Is it that the circumstances will never be repeated? What does someone have to do for them to be considered not worthy of trust? How many times does someone get to lie, steal, cheat, defraud, maim and kill something in the name of greed and ego? I am not saying he should be drawn and quartered- he makes a good living now- fine. Let him do so, let those that see no problem with him continue to support him. But please as my association and governing body, if you say that your mission is the welfare of the horses etc then mean it. His inclusion back into USEF means what to him really? That he can put down the binoculars and 2 way radio? Big deal- However there are many people who have followed the rules in spirit and to the letter that managed to refrain from doing these kinds of things- somewhere they should be commended for that and they should expect that their association who set those rules will uphold them not make a mockery of them. I should think that those '2 dozen or so' people who were guilty, should not swing the balance of the much larger numbers of their peers who have not committed these acts.
Yelp all you want- I suspect you have the intelligence to see the flaws in your arguments, however your one size fits all mentality with regard to the degree of crimes all being the same, and equating euthanizing a horse for either kindness or convenience to what was done to these horses seems to impede clear vision. I spent many of my years on a ranch, far from town and had to upon occasion put one down without the assistance of a vet, however I never saw any comparison to beating one with a crowbar, stuffing ping pong balls up its nose or electrocuting one. Maybe that is just a distinction I made.
Sometimes going forward is as simple as never going backward.
Well we'll see please PM me your orders. I'd like to mail out over the weekend because we have a show next week. I will have them for sale at the show as well. And a copy of the petition. Afterwards War Admiral if you give me your address I will send what we get to you.