Point taken, HJ... I think it's mostly people outside the show world who are shocked and outraged that anyone would consider doing business with someone like PV. People inside the show world are probably not shocked and outraged by much these days. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
I have seen posts from people here who have worked with PV and have found it very beneficial, even if they were uneasy about it in the beginning. I don't mean to imply that *I* think those customers are horribly wrong and devoid of morals or anything like that. Personally, I don't know if I'd want to do it myself, but it's hard to say.
I was mostly just making an observation that a lot of people have posted here in the past and been extremely offended that anyone would continue to work with PV.
I do not have a problem with people who choose to give their business to PV. I could not personally, but I don't expect others to share my standards. I also don't mind that he is on the parking lot with his walkie talkie. I kind of like the mental imagery of that. The fact that he is there speaks volumes about his place in our sport and I think we need to do whatever it takes to make sure he stays there.
Feel free to send that petition my way! Only too happy to help keep him in the parking lot where he belongs. No one can prevent others for continuing to do business with him, but I don't want him on the same showgrounds with my child.
Feel free to send the petition my way too. I would agree that it should be applied to all who were convicted and suspended, not just PV. There were others who killed more horses and created more misery, so the playing field needs to be kept even.
I submit that if PV is allowed to be reinstated, then the precedent is set for others to be reinstated as well even Tommy Burns.
So let's not make the petition about PV: he does have immense support. Let's make it about doing what's right instead of what's easy.
"Socrates was a very wise man who went around giving good advice. They poisoned him." Anonymous...
There are a few points in this entire issue that I think are completely lost.
1) this point is not just about PV but all of the people who were found guilty – by the time someone gets to thinking it’s alright to kill someone or something for money then their moral compass has long been off kilter. What other nefarious acts have these people been party to? This is just the time they got caught and it is the most heinous act they committed. These people didn’t just wake up one morning and think, “I will have to have this horse killed for the insurance money but I am a really honest, decent person in everything else I do.” Frankly I think there is a whole pile of things that these folks have done and probably will continue to do that led them to think this was an ok thing to do. I don’t want people like that in this business there are too many of them already. People who lie, cheat and steal and abuse the very animal that their business is based on and the people who own them.
2) The other thing is where in the world are the laws that apply to other animal abuse cases? People convicted on animal abuse charges aren’t allowed to own any or be involved with them sometimes for a short period of time sometimes for life. I know they probably weren’t charged with animal abuse, they were charged with wire and mail fraud and other things that are considered more important than animal abuse, but they should have been. All of these people should not be allowed ever again to be involved with horses. There is just something so very wrong in allowing someone who would do what these people have done access to horses, let alone making money from this sport again.
I do understand that PV is a talented trainer – and that he screwed up big time but there are many folks that were talented or brilliant in some way that have made huge mistakes in their lives and they have to pay and accept responsibility for those actions. That is life. You made your choices you live with the consequences. I am fairly certain that when a medical doctor loses their license to practice because of some nefarious act you surely aren’t going to take your children to them, even if they are brilliant. To me this is no different. Then again it's obvious that at least in PV's case his clients don't think so. It would take some fairly saint like acts for me to think any of these people have changed their ways. They truly aren’t horseman. The horses are just a means to an end.
Let's get back tothe cruelty issue.Eventing was forced to undergo a major change in ordr to stay in the Olympics, and quiet the "humaniacs in .Let's be honest,the drug issue in h/jland id out of control; I know of barns where it takes 45 nunurtes to pout nedications in the feed of 20 horses, and,this at home, in the winter..
Let's get back to the cruelty issue. Eventing was forced to undergo a major change in order to stay in the Olympics, and quiet the "humaniacs in Europe. Let’s be honest, the drug issue in h/land is out of control; I know of barns where it takes 45 minutes to put medications in the feed of 20 horses, and, this at home, in the winter http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_eek.gif ..and then there are these internal blisters. which seem to be the "rage" at the moment. I cannot imagine how an internal blister might feel, but, I do know how injecting a joint feels; and, it is not good, certainly later when ththeete lidocaine has worked into the joint capsule, pain upon movement is gone, but, even knowing that as a human being, itis VERY PAINFUL I advise friends who are considering being injected that initial pain is severe.At one point I was considering having my si injected, until a friend inmed schol talked with me about it, since chiropractic, osteopatthic, and, PT mde the joint functional again with a minimum of pain.I admit I would have e g fought anyone doingthat to my "backside", yet horses are twitched twitched, shanked down with lip chains in order to be injected.This goes on as part of the "picture " of being successful in the show ring., and, I suspect humane societies who fought so hard against the soring of gaited horses would be equally upset if they knew what is considered "daily maintenance " in the show ring;and then,there is the issue of killing for hire; Would It not be better to show that we do look after our horses’ best interests, and, penalize seriously those convicted ofcruelty “, is that not what was cited in the decision?, "cruelttty?"Unfortunately all horse sports are subject to being accused of doping , andf""fixes"could we not take the higher moral road, show that we consider cruelty, especially as perpetrated int this case.to be abhorrent I understand, and, respect the point about having "paid " the penalty. served time, etc. and, one day behind bars is certainly horrible, especially to someone used to being outside, and,
Having been down this road several times I find it invigorating that there are some people left who are so passionate about the treatment of horses and the punitive measures not employed by our Federation.
I feel the same way about all convicted felons. They don't belong in our sport. I sent a letter to John Long requesting he use existing rules to suspend from particiaption at any horse show Joe Plemmons. He sat on National TV discussing how he had shot Helen Brach twice in the head and how he had disposed of the body. He winters at Wellington to sell horses. Her crime? She was going to turn the crooked horse dealers in to the DA. I am still waiting for a reply.
Then we have Wally Holly who I believe has been suspended but ignores it and is frequently seen at shows in the company of his girlfriend who is a Tack Shop vendor. We have people who although they know Barney Ward is in disguise but present at a horse plead for forgiveness for him as well.
So where do you all want to draw the line? The Drugs and Medications Committee tried several times to tighten the drug rules but there was a huge cry from our leading trainers that it was unfair and unkind to the horses to have them clean of drugs. Isn't it interesting that they seriously believe they should be allowed to drug and medicate in other ways horses at the lower levels but then suddenly they have to go clean for an FEI Class. Doesn't that make you wonder?
Does anyone remember the the dirty money scandal? it seems only at the hunter shows the money is so loaded with cocaine that the horses get it second hand and tested positive. I think someone even claimed that a horse could test positive if they followed a horse in the same stall even just for a few minutes. Imagine that? I heard the amazement by Dr.Lengel when there was no dirty money at the Arabian Shows and only at our Hunter Jumper Shows.
The conclusion was that the current testing methods are too good and they find even little amounts in the system of the horses which is always accidental. So why not forgive PV and Barney Ward afterall they have both repented. They're really nice guys and they have a lot of important friends.
It's just us "little people" who get all bent out of shape because we don't know them. And who is there that even cares what we all think?