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  1. #41
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    I agree, I like that language too.

    I'm kinda burned out at the moment - anyone else want to pull it all together, or can I go on vacation until tomorrow & tweak it some more in the a.m.?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  2. #42

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    War Admiral, You have done more than enought today. You have had us all evaluate what is right and wrong. Lets try again tomorrow.



  3. #43

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    War Admiral, I did not mean to minimize your efforts, I just feel that in this case it is a bigger battle than can be won by the grassroots members. This man has had a few years head start on his public relations efforts, and a good deal of money behind him.
    POYBGP, member in good standing.



  4. #44
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    No comparing the magnitude of societal change verses a USEF suspension...but Rosa Parks was one person...talk about grassroots. Surely a large portion of membership in an association can bring about a desired result. Look at the approved helmet issue.



  5. #45
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    I think the language of the letter is very good. I will sign, and would suggest that copies be sent to as many horse publications as possible in addition to the USEF. I'd start with HODV, PH, and COTH (of course) but there are many others. There are some PR mavens on this board who could probably come up with a list. The more publicity this attracts, the higher impact the letter will have.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  6. #46

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    My last night posts suggest I am against the "movement" so to speak, but indeed I am not, I just feel that it is not likely to get off the ground where it counts. It will need to be funded in some way, and perhaps advertising purchased for full page ads in these publications stating the mission. The support you need has to go beyond the horse world, so be large enough to be effective. I do not believe the professionals of our sport will touch the issue.
    POYBGP, member in good standing.



  7. #47
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    Harry is right; this effort is likely to require funding.

    Maybe we need to make up bracelets (like the Livestrong ones Lance Armstrong's foundation created to raise money for fighting cancer) that riders could buy - and WEAR - to show opposition to the reinstatement. I am thinking that seeing a bunch of red "DON'T DO IT" bracelets on every exhibitor at this winter's horseshows would be a h*ll of a statement...
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  8. #48

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    Excellent thinking Lucas, not only a fund raiser, but a telling sign of support that is visible. What small child seeing their first horse show would not want the same bracelet that she/he sees the riders wearing? Of course this would required purchasing a booth or table at a show, or convincing a philanthropic show manager to allow the group to use a minimal space for the effort. That would be the difficult part, as the space would offend many cash-paying exhibitors, and I would have to believe the management would want to keep things running in a milk-toast fashion.
    POYBGP, member in good standing.



  9. #49
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    Originally posted by harryjohnson:
    My last night posts suggest I am against the "movement" so to speak, but indeed I am not, I just feel that it is not likely to get off the ground where it counts. It will need to be funded in some way, and perhaps advertising purchased for full page ads in these publications stating the mission. The support you need has to go beyond the horse world, so be large enough to be effective. I do not believe the professionals of our sport will touch the issue.
    Harry, your last statement is just so sad. "But by the grace of God" should not be the norm with our professionals.

    War Admiral - once the letter/petition is ready, I will sign it and will be happy to bring it to the shows I attend. (Unfortunately, I won't be headed to the sunny south.)

    I would also be happy to contribute to trade ads and/or the bracelets for this purpose.
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  10. #50
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    not only a fund raiser, but a telling sign of support that is visible. What small child seeing their first horse show would not want the same bracelet that she/he sees the riders wearing?
    Yeah, that's my thought too. The money raised might be somewhat marginal, but I think the sight of the bracelets might be persuasive.

    I agree that most show managements would be unlikely to support such an effort publicly, but it would be easy enough to set up a simple website to handle orders. I think actually the biggest challenge would be the distribution. Probably we would need to find a vendor who was willing to do fulfillment, which would add to the cost.

    The bracelets themselves are inexpensive to produce. (Less than 50 cents each.)
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  11. #51

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    The website is a good idea, but for people to actually come across it is another thing. One thing that might work, particularly in the WPB area is for groups to contact local businesses, a community awareness sort of thing, and have the bracelets placed in stores. The local ASPCA is often tireless, and would have local support with contacts in that area, the area where the shows are held, which despite giving safe haven to O.J. Simpson might be rather suprised to know of the goings on at their much touted Winter Festival. A local investigative reporter might like to have the scoop on the story and the bracelets............
    POYBGP, member in good standing.



  12. #52
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    As another thought, an ad offering the bracelets (obviously saying something a bit provocative, like "ARE YOU OPPOSED TO REINSTATING THE HORSE KILLERS?") would be an easy way to get the word out about the effort, as well as to advertise the bracelets.

    I wonder if Equestrian magazine would run it? I bet COTH has the b@lls to do so. They have taken strong stands for what is right in the past; for example, during the NGB battle.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  13. #53
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    COTH took money for the ads run on behalf of PV. I can't see why any of the pubs would not take money for this purpose.
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  14. #54

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    A local investigative reporter might like to have the scoop on the story and the bracelets............
    I love that idea. It would be great for the investigative team set up a hidden camera on PV at a show and watch how he "coaches". Once they explain the whole situation I bet a lot of people would be interested. Plus the USEF could not ignore that kind of publicity.



  15. #55

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    Equestrian magazine would problably take the advertisement on ONLY if an opposite-view advertisement was placed by supporters. One would have to think that they are forced to be bi-artisan in this matter.
    POYBGP, member in good standing.



  16. #56
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    Harry, I don't understand that logic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_confused.gif Accepting a paid ad does not mean a publication is partisan. I can see where they wouldn't be able to do it for a discount - unless they offered the same discount to the opposing ad, if such ad were done. (The pubs could do their own statement - like the product shows on TV. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif ) Or, the editors could actually show where they stand on the issue...
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  17. #57
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    I am person who is involved in the criminal justice system on a daily basis and I see both sides of cases including the impact on the subject and his family. I am also a passionate horsewoman and this crime to those who love horses creates the same type of emotional response that child molestors or killers evoke in society in general.

    The facts, stripped of the emotion, are that PV was suspended and could request reinstatment if he could prove rehabilitation and that he has provided community service to benefit the welfare of horses. I don't think anyone can argue effectively that he hasn't complied with those requirements so the only argument left is that he should be expelled for life with no hope of ever being reinstated simply because of the horrific nature of the original offense and that in many minds, can never, not even in a million years ever be forgiven.

    My question to each member of this board who has a strong opinion on this subject is : What would you rule if you were the sole judge and are charged with meting out justice after reviewing the past 10 years and PV's behavior? Do you wipe out what he was told 10 years ago to encourage his charitable activities and rehabilitation and tell him it was all in vain and he will NEVER be reinstated or given an opportunity to rejoin the show horse community officially?

    Every day I deal with criminals who do really vicious things to other human beings and it is just another day at the office. Battery, Aggravated Assault, Rape and even Murder. Most of these criminals are sentenced, many times to probation for a first offense and they re-enter society none the worse for wear for the most part. We are USED to man's inhumanity to man and that is almost "accepted"...however, man's inhumanity to a horse to a horseperson sends us over the edge into a state of complete unforgiveness.

    While I agree that PV's crime is horrible I also see the value in that through his cooperation he made it possible to take out the entire ring of conspirators. This does have value that many of you cannot appreciate if you haven't seen how many times offenders get clean away with crimes because no one will do the dirty work of a CI. Right now I could take you on a tour of my county and tell you the names of the biggest crack dealers and even which houses have cooking pots making crack every day. I can take you "THE HILL" where sentinels are watching and it is veritable enclave of houses of dope dealers that the cops want NOTHING to do with. Those folks have guns and it would be a war to go in there and no one wants to be the CI to take those crowds out.

    PV's role in making that case happen and so many people being convicted was instrumental in saving many horses that would have potentially died in the future. That has value and was considered by the board as it should have been.

    At some point, every person who has ever made a mistake should have an opportunity to start over and my question is: Does PV ever get that chance?

    By the way...I don't have any connections to the man whatsoever and no dog in the fight.
    Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
    www.adventurebeachponies.com



  18. #58
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    Adventurebeachponies, your point is well made, but I would argue that PV has come pretty d@mn close to getting away clean. His business continues to thrive, and is only marginally impacted by the suspension which prevents him from personally setting foot on the competition grounds.

    In that respect, he doesn't really NEED the chance to start over - because he hasn't lost much; there is nothing to rebuild!

    Convicted child molesters can do their time and go on to be reintroduced to society. That does not mean they will be given the opportunity to be a grade school teacher or daycare worker.

    I would argue that PV's case is much the same. And yet he has been able to remain in the horse industry, and continues to earn a very good living doing so.

    Yes, he cooperated with the authorities *after he was caught*. You could not convince me he did it out of remorse for his actions. Those who "cooperate" in such exercises almost always do so out of personal interest - in the hopes of getting lighter sentences - and I don't doubt that that was the motivation in PV's case as well.

    Reinstatement for this individual is more of a moral statement than any type of economic or professional issue. That official "forgiveness" is not something that I feel is appropriate, especially coming from a governing body that claims as one of its principal objectives the goal of protecting the welfare of our competition horses.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  19. #59
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    I guess my rebuttal to your very well stated post is that PV has hasn't had to start over. He just continued on and has thrived, even though he hasn't been allowed at sanctioned shows. He hasn't been hurt financially. Neither has he been hurt professionally, for the most part.

    Yes, he helped put others away. But, as with the judicial system, that meant he helped himself as well.

    Someone else said on another thread - that other professionals are NOT allowed to practice their profession after doing a like crime within their profession. PV has been doing quite nicely in his profession. He's had limits put on exactly what/where he can do it. But, that's all.

    Personally, I would still feel better about his "rehabilitation" had I read/heard a statement from HIM about the horrific act he took part in, seen remorse, seen him not flaunt the sanctions, etc. That's what some of us "outsiders" see or not see. I have to think those close to him have seen this non-public side - or they wouldn't support him.

    Sorry about the rambling...Please know that I'm one of those people who always thinks the best of others for too long. I'm one who has to be beaten over the head multiple times for me to not trust someone, etc. But, premeditated cruelty to a helpless animal or person is not something easily forgiveable in my heart and soul.
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



  20. #60
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    Lucasb - talk about the same thoughts! http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E



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