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  1. #2361
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    Jul. 19, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I think you are missing the point Gumtree. The point is not that they didn't do anything wrong, the point is so did hundreds of other people who got caught doing the exact same thing and weren't charged with the above.
    No, Laurierace you miss the point. 2 wrongs don’t make a right and a 100 just reinforces the low opinion the general public, social media and the press have of racing. I understand what you said and mean in your comments. And your right but it does not make it RIGHT. It is this mindset that has gotten us where we are. If you push the envelope there is a good chance you will get caught. I am not saying that these 3 trainers are the bottom of the barrel nor what they got caught doing was particularly nefarious. It probably could have been any number of trainers at most tracts. Unfortunately for them they got caught. Hopefully they are not the only ones because it is time to clean house and change the mindset.
    The industry is under a microscope so what has been “tolerated” in the past is not going to be anymore. This fact is hardly a secret. Any trainers that thinks they can push the envelope and just get a slap on the hand like in the past are in for a rude awaking.

    We ran horses at Penn on opening day way back when. And Charlestown, Dover Downs, and some others that are no longer around. Luckily my career in the business moved on and has taken me all over the world.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2362
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    Ok. You can believe that they just randomly chose these people to throw unprecedented charges at because they felt it was finally time to clean up racing. I think that is naive but time will tell. I believe there is WAY more to it.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #2363
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    Los Angeles
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    I understand the argument. I just think it is a complete reach legally and the Feds are trying to get through the back door what they can't get through the front. Even if the intent is good, the means are not kosher absent a specific law.

    If you speed on an Interstate, is that a Federal offense? It is after all, built and maintained with Federal dollars and subject to certain Federal regulations. But everything to do with or involving a telephone, an Interstate, a port and an airplane is not a Federal matter.

    And the argument doesn't even make sense with Trish Rogers because the horse was scratched and no wagering dollars were taken on it.

    The law is all about precedent and personally, I don't think this is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by gumtree View Post
    Because Penn’s races are simulcast and wagered on in other states under the Interstate Horseracing Act the Feds do have jurisdiction. It is called interstate wire fraud. From what I understand.
    IMO it’s disappointing that you feel “just because of a few” the trainer should be given a pass. . It is against the rules and the LAW. I don’t feel bad for the repercussions the trainers may have thrown at them. And if guilty I hope the penalties are strong. The line is and has been draw for many years and it’s about time the rules and laws are strictly enforced. It the horse needs a few extra Ccs of Lasix above the LEGAL limit so as not to bleed then it should be retired.
    No one is being thrown under the bus here. They stepped in front of it on their own accord.
    I worked on the back side long enough to know the BS that has been going on for years unchecked. I doubt these are the first and last trainer and others that will come under indictment in the next few months. If not I will be very disappointed. Especially if they don’t go after some Vets also.
    Rick Dutrow IMO was thrown under the bus. Yes, he had numerous violations of which the vast majority were innocuous. The few serious violations pale in comparison to being caught in a stall “pre race treating” a horse. Be it “just a few” extra Ccs of Lasix or stuff that doesn’t “test” yet.
    In one of the Sport Horse threads on a link to the Official Rulings a trainer was slapped with a $5,000 fine, 5 months suspension, not allowed on the grounds of shows, etc. The owner of the horse was fined, and had to give back all prize money, trophies, etc. Because the horse tested for Carolina Gold. Which IME is pretty innocuous and wasn’t worth the money and effort on out of competition horse I gave it to as directed by my Vet.
    In the past something like this in racing would have been a $100 fine and go on with your business.
    The image of racing is in the Crapper because of all this nonsense. The public doesn’t know nor care if it was “just a few extra Ccs”. To them a horse is being injected to “hop” it up with drugs. Period.
    If we loose any more of the confidence of the wagering public, the public in general then we already have racing will be extinct in the not to distant future.
    NO more slaps on the wrist. IMO it is about time the Feds stepped in.
    As always to each their own.



  4. #2364
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    Nov. 20, 2010
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    Upstate New York
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    Whatever it is, am happy that at least something is being attempted in response to so many being fed up.

    Would love to go back to a previous time, but I don't know that just the dishonesty/breaking-of-rules in horseracing is what has turned many away. I think most people are now just more interested in city-centric activities brought on by technology. Rural life is taking a huge hit altogether, and horses, frankly, becoming more of an oddity than ever to so many.

    With all the nonsense going on in baseball and other pro-sports, I don't see popularity waning there.

    But the effort to go into horses - training, breeding, care-taking, rehab, rescue - and its EXPENSE will help continue to add to its demise. And its being even more identified with gambling - even legally - ever increasing as casino operations fall under the same auspices as horse-racing, adds to horse racing's identity as being distasteful - despite how wonderful and beautiful horses are.

    I am very sad, and not encouraged about racing in general, but hope these arrests start something. So that, perhaps, maybe there will be even the slightest turn around. Or otherwise we may be losing it altogether.
    Being right half the time beats being half-right all the time. Malcolm Forbes



  5. #2365
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahoss View Post
    This is exactly what is needed to deter all the cheats and dopers that are running loose in the sport.

    Is cheating that big of a deal? Does it really affect the outcome of races? Does it take food off the table of those playing fairly? More importantly, is it animal abuse? All one has to do is look towards Monmouth Parks leading trainer for the 2011 and 2012 seasons and see what that same trainer has done since their troubles in Tampa.

    Now that this person has been forced to play by the rules(due to being watched), this persons proves that it wasn't their horsemanship skills that were winning races at a high percentage.
    Perhaps best thing ever said on this thread. Couldn't agree more. Excellent post.

    Quote Originally Posted by brightskyfarm View Post
    Too bad they (FBI) didnt have the guts to throw this same book at DD when they had a chance...

    hes still training, has a program trainer, has owners too ...and PN knows all about it..yet ignores..
    Correct. Matter of fact rumors of his being back in Louisiana or in jail or wherever were all false. He hasn't gone anywhere is still around and always has been. Beware of greeks bearing gifts we might say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessi P View Post
    I agree with Laurie - there has to be more to this than meets the eye.
    Oh there is. Is much more to come. Stay tuned folks.

    Fits right in with Business as Usual. All clocker did was falsify some paperwork and take some money. He's out. Will probably be fired and prosecuted. Trainers injected horses with illegal drugs. Attempted to influence the outcome of races etc.
    They went back to work the next day. They are still licensed and in good standing. There is no talk of even revoking their stalls. Funny thing is ALL of those people are locals. ALL of them have their own farms. Yet they have stalls too. WTF?

    Stall assignments at that track are given preferentially to out of state outfits supposedly because they need them more due to not being native to the area. They're usually invited to apply actually. Locals getting stalls is tougher than winning the lottery. Rationale being if a local they think rightly or wrongly that they already have a place. Thus, locals have usually had to pay for them. That's a fact. These licensed locals now facing federal charges are keeping their stalls in spite of all having farms.

    Question is when they all go to jail will the commission recommend with a wink and a nod that they use program trainers? Or will they simply accept the reversed phone call charges from prison when they call in their entries?
    What a place, never a dull moment!
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  6. #2366
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    One thing I can't help but wonder. Granted the clocker spent most of his time playing cards up there most mornings but for anybody that's ever been up in that clockers stand.... Who could see anything from up there?

    The finish line is obscured by the tote board and the stand isn't high enough to see over it. Don't get me wrong the guy is bad but in his defense I will say that the way that place is constructed it's an impossibility to get a true and accurate timing of any horse from that vantage point.

    Any chance PNG may want to correct that little oversight? Yeah I know, maybe when pigs fly.

    Also, if he gets fired from being clocker might they still allow him to keep his other job as a valet? Only at Penn folks
    Last edited by Profidia; Nov. 29, 2013 at 12:09 AM.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  7. #2367
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    Jun. 23, 2009
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    PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profidia View Post
    Stall assignments at that track are given preferentially to out of state outfits supposedly because they need them more due to not being native to the area. They're usually invited to apply actually. Locals getting stalls is tougher than winning the lottery. Rationale being if a local they think rightly or wrongly that they already have a place. Thus, locals have usually had to pay for them. That's a fact. These licensed locals now facing federal charges are keeping their stalls in spite of all having farms.
    Are stalls in short supply at Penn?



  8. #2368
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    Quote Originally Posted by alspharmd View Post
    Are stalls in short supply at Penn?
    They'd like people to think so but in reality no. There are plenty of empty ones in every barn.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  9. #2369
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    Jul. 19, 2010
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    Gum Tree PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pronzini View Post
    I understand the argument. I just think it is a complete reach legally and the Feds are trying to get through the back door what they can't get through the front. Even if the intent is good, the means are not kosher absent a specific law.

    If you speed on an Interstate, is that a Federal offense? It is after all, built and maintained with Federal dollars and subject to certain Federal regulations. But everything to do with or involving a telephone, an Interstate, a port and an airplane is not a Federal matter.

    And the argument doesn't even make sense with Trish Rogers because the horse was scratched and no wagering dollars were taken on it.

    The law is all about precedent and personally, I don't think this is a good one.

    “If you speed on an Interstate, is that a Federal offense” If congress wanted to make it a Federal offence by enacting “The Federal Speed Enforcement Act” it would be. I understand your argument but it is a weak one.
    Interstate wire fraud is pretty broad and sweeping in what it covers.

    “And the argument doesn't even make sense with Trish Rogers because the horse was scratched and no wagering dollars were taken on it.’
    One of the 3 elements for being charged is “intent”. The horses involved were scratched by the Stewards not the trainers. The trainers were caught in the act of doing something that was against the rules and the law. Pretty hard to get around that. IMO the Feds case is pretty easy by and large. The only reason a trainer would be injecting anything on race day that was outside of what the rules and regs allow is to help/make the horse run better/faster. Which means fraudulent intent to alter the outcome of a race for monetary reasons and personal gain. Not much different then insider trading or stock manipulation. Instead of people buying stock based on false information the people were “buying” a bet based on manipulated information. This should be easy for a jury to understand. Throw in the fact that no trainer is allowed to possess injectables let alone be caught with one in a race day horse’s neck regardless of what was in it makes IMO a slam dunk.

    As others have said, there’s a lot more to this. IMO not just at Penn and these people. The Feds work months sometimes years collecting information before actually making arrests.



  10. #2370
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    Jul. 19, 2010
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    Gum Tree PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Ok. You can believe that they just randomly chose these people to throw unprecedented charges at because they felt it was finally time to clean up racing. I think that is naive but time will tell. I believe there is WAY more to it.
    I never said nor do I believe these people were “just randomly chosen”. I do not know the facts and with out facts or have a high respect for the “source” I rarely believe anything.
    But I do have a pretty good understanding of how things work being a student of law. My Grandfather was Maryland’s State Attorney and president of the bar. And I have worked for a number of attorneys over the years.
    Given the fact that racing’s dirty laundry has been front and center for several years now. There has now been 2 Congressional hearings covering many things wrong with racing but centering on the “doping of”, over use and or the perceived over medicating of horses, etc it should come as no surprise. There is an influential segment of the industry that wants the Feds to step in and “clean” things up.
    If I were to guess I would say this was put in motion a while ago. I would guess the Feds might have contacted the racing officials at various tracks around the country. I would guess they were told to inform them of all “misconduct”. I would guess that these people were “low hanging fruit” to start with.

    “unprecedented charges” Well, I haven’t read much case law involving race manipulation. Maybe you have. A widget is a widget, manipulating is manipulating regardless of the widget. Rules are rules, the law is the law. Maybe these charges are in fact “unprecedented” many Federal charges have been. There has to be a “first” for everything. But I do not know enough to state for fact these are “unprecedented charges” or not.

    I maybe a lot of things good for bad. But one thing I am not is naïve. I may only be a fish swimming in the horseracing ocean but I have been swimming and making a living in it for a long time. Not just my local pond. I have survived by making a lot of friends with much bigger fish and some sharks. I am kept pretty well informed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #2371
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2007
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    Down on the Farm
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    New positions available at Penn...

    Clocker and Director of Racing Operations.
    https://careers-pngaming.icims.com/j...s=5&searchZip=



  12. #2372
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    Middle Tennessee
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    From the Clocker's job description:

    Ability to read and comprehend simple instructions
    Well shoot, half of America is out of the running right there.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #2373
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Our four Penn stalwarts who recently entertained everyone by doing the perp walk were supposed to go on trial this month already.

    Has anything happened yet as far as a date? Is it put off or still a go? Anybody hear anything?
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  14. #2374
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    From today's Paulick
    http://www.paulickreport.com/news/pe...tor-of-racing/
    ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!
    What a surprise, they found a born and bred native son of Grantville PA!
    Wonder how many of that guys family is already working there
    What a place, never a dull moment

    Welcome back Dick Hertz!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Profidia; Mar. 8, 2014 at 01:11 AM.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  15. #2375
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Here's one from just last night:
    http://replays.robertsstream.com/rac...1403222137PEN9
    Ordinarily I'm not one to harp on stuff like this but this stuff is getting to be almost every night out there now. Is completely out of hand. Hopefully maybe PETA will take this one and run with it too.
    RIP Sweetly Put
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  16. #2376
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    Feb. 24, 2010
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    Profidia, I want to salute you for keeping this thread alive and your tireless efforts to inform and improve things at Penn.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #2377
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffolk2002 View Post
    Profidia, I want to salute you for keeping this thread alive and your tireless efforts to inform and improve things at Penn.
    Thank you suffolk.
    In other Penn news I have this:
    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind..._river_default
    For almost 2 years there has been this missing girl from the area. In light of this new evidence I think it's time to break silence about it.

    The 2 individuals responsible for her disappearance are a couple of Penn National clowns who have been ruled off numerous times but for some inexplicable reason continue to be licensed and allowed back in there. As I type this one of them is wearing a house arrest electronic ankle bracelet rather than sitting in jail where he belongs. When I asked if the folks arrested were going to be allowed to enter horses from jail it was only part tongue in cheek. These guys seem to operate with impunity yet the Gill crew was run off for being "known undesireables". Now it is looking more and more like those guys were involved in a murder. COME ON COMMISSION!!!!!!! These guys are an embarrassment. The commission acted on the DD watch why are these guys protected? Can their being local boys have much to do with it?

    I hope everyone would sign this online petition in hopes of bringing some closure to the Stouffer family:
    http://www.change.org/petitions/leba...uiter=76697075
    Cody and Milt, time to come clean and turn yourselves in.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #2378
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Latest news, Sam Webbs attorney has moved for a dismissal of charges:
    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...g_charges.html
    Also, thanks to everybody who signed the petition in the previous post. State Police started searching the lake on Tuesday. That petition made it happen folks
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #2379
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Ok PA Racing Commission, got another question.
    After running Jamie Ness out of Penn National why is he welcome at Presque Isle?
    Is Erie no longer part of the Commonwealth?
    Also lest we forget why is the commission as well as track management kissing the tush once again of a known undesireable reprobate the likes of Burton K Sipp?
    Have a look at Sunday's entries:
    http://www.equibase.com/static/entry...14USA-EQB.html
    For a state agency that would like folks to think they're doing something to clean their own house I can't see it by this.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  20. #2380
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    Nov. 15, 2008
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    Over where it's HI in the middle and round on both ends.
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    Profidia, I hear you and I second the motion. If you look the entries are really light the last week, not sure why but I guess they need horses anywhere they can get them.
    My mom didn't raise no jellybean salesman!



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