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  1. #1

    Angry 330 dead race horses so far in 2014

    WOW! I had no idea it was so bad. I knew there were deaths & break downs. But 330 & still counting?! *holy cr@pazoid*


    330 So far this year....

    American racehorses reported as dead or “broke down” in 2014. Does not included horses "merelyl" vanned off.

    3-year-old Aunt Meanie, January 1, Fair Grounds 9
    5-year-old Uncle Smokey, January 2, Aqueduct 7
    3-year-old Shand, January 2, Santa Anita 8
    4-year-old Sassy Cherokee, January 4, Charles Town 1
    3-year-old Classic Ford, January 4, Fair Grounds 10
    2-year-old Side Street, January 4, Gulfstream 3
    8-year-old Caixa Eletronica, January 4, Belmont, training
    3-year-old Six Drivers, January 4, Belmont, training
    2-year-old Blonde for Ever, January 6, Parx 3
    4-year-old Clodhopper, January 6, Turf 3
    8-year-old Devils Afleet, January 8, Turf 3
    2-year-old Casey Lynn, January 9, Delta 1
    3-year-old Battle Silk, January 9, Delta 9
    4-year-old Skip the Limit, January 11, Charles Town 6
    4-year-old Golden Archway, January 11, Tampa Bay 3
    10-year-old Stormy Surge, January 12, Golden Gate, training
    3-year-old Go Canes Go, January 13, Belmont, training
    6-year-old Mystery Taste, January 14, Beulah 7
    4-year-old Past Glory, January 16, Charles Town 8
    3-year-old Forgot to Duck, January 16, Golden Gate, training
    3-year-old The Mikester, January 16, Penn 1
    5-year-old Actin Lucky, January 18, Charles Town 7
    4-year-old Diplomatic Gal, January 18, Charles Town 7
    6-year-old More Nuggets, January 18, Hialeah 3
    4-year-old Trick the Queen, January 18, Laurel 5
    3-year-old Longevity, January 18, Oaklawn 3
    2-year-old Top Data, January 20, Fair Grounds 9
    3-year-old Soul Searcher, January 20, Golden Gate 8
    4-year-old Vanessa Flag, January 21, Sunland, race 9
    5-year-old Holleran, January 22, Beulah 2
    3-year-old Miss Go Free, January 24, Golden Gate, training
    4-year-old Shesonlyseventeen, January 24, Los Alamitos 7
    2-year-old Electric Eddie, January 25, Santa Anita 10
    3-year-old Dixie Sparkle, January 26, Aqueduct 7
    3-year-old Silent Blessing, January 26, Calder 2
    4-year-old Gimmenosass, January 26, Turf 8
    4-year-old Royal Affair, January 29, Beulah 1
    2-year-old Valar Dohaeris, January 30, Belmont, training
    3-year-old Budding Affair, January 31, Golden Gate, training
    4-year-old Flashy in Pink, February 1, Belmont, training
    4-year-old Charlie Company, February 1, Golden Gate, training
    2-year-old Tizardo, February 1, Oaklawn 9
    4-year-old Minotaur, February 4, Turf 1
    5-year-old Silver Cloud, February 5, Tampa Bay 9
    2-year-old Salt Block, February 6, Laurel 4
    3-year-old Cougarontheprowl, February 6, Santa Anita 4
    4-year-old Mr Manske, February 7, Charles Town 4
    4-year-old Malibu Affair, February 8, Sunland 9
    1-year-old Manchas Mojave, February 13, Golden Gate, training
    8-year-old Moscato, February 14, Golden Gate 7
    5-year-old Code of Conduct, February 14, Santa Anita 7
    4-year-old LG Jet, February 15, Turf 2
    4-year-old Vero’s Hero, February 16, Gulfstream 1
    3-year-old He’s Not Too Shaby, February 17, Santa Anita 9
    5-year-old Gracias, February 17, Turf 2
    3-year-old Sum Royal, February 20, Charles Town 2
    3-year-old Very Elusive, February 21, Golden Gate, training
    3-year-old Andromeda’s Coming, February 22, Aqueduct 3
    9-year-old Miss Palatine, February 22, Hawthorne 2
    4-year-old Body of Evidence, February 22, Hialeah 2
    7-year-old Scottie C, February 22, Buffalo 3 (harness)
    3-year-old Byerley Barb, February 23, Golden Gate, training
    2-year-old Chica de La Noche, February 23, Louisiana 7
    7-year-old Pay Tribute, February 26, Buffalo 7 (harness)
    5-year-old Giant Indian, February 26, Laurel 7
    4-year-old Sea Rep Run, February 28, Charles Town 6
    5-year-old Sound of Drums, March 1, Aqueduct 7
    2-year-old Syeshacat, March 1, Mountaineer 4
    3-year-old King Moon, March 2, Oaklawn 4
    3-year-old Aggressive Prize, March 3, Louisiana 5
    2-year-old Changeinaction, March 5, Belmont, training
    6-year-old The Program, March 6, Fair Grounds 8
    1-year-old Ruby Jo, March 6, Golden Gate, training
    2-year-old Miss Da Sunrise, March 7, Fair Grounds 4
    5-year-old Cellophane, March 7, Golden Gate 6
    6-year-old Tawdry, March 10, Mountaineer 8
    9-year-old Hickory Louie, March 12, Monticello 8 (harness)
    2-year-old Uncle Betty, March 13, Charles Town 5
    3-year-old Kenai Warrior, March 14, Gulfstream 6
    6-year-old Cooper River, March 14, Laurel 3
    4-year-old Concept, March 15, Aqueduct, training
    7-year-old Itsagoodtendollars, March 15, Belmont, training
    4-year-old Candy’s Jewel, March 15, Los Alamitos 1
    3-year-old Fardan, March 15, Santa Anita 1
    3-year-old Broadway Peyton, March 15, Tampa Bay 6
    5-year-old El Altanero, March 17, Beulah 7
    3-year-old Hot Little Thang, March 17, Turf 1
    3-year-old Pure Afleet, March 19, Laurel 1
    4-year-old Colonel By, March 21, Charles Town 2
    3-year-old Finesse, March 21, Oaklawn 7
    4-year-old Garden Tavern, March 22, Charles Town 2
    4-year-old Diva On Demand, March 22, Laurel 4
    4-year-old Sweetly Put, March 22, Penn 9
    6-year-old Vagabond Shoes, March 22, Santa Anita 4
    3-year-old Vengeful, March 23, Gulfstream 2
    6-year-old With a Miracle, March 23, Sunland 7
    6-year-old Kern River, March 28, Fonner 2
    3-year-old Art of the Game, March 28, Gulfstream 8
    2-year-old Russian Silk, March 29, Santa Anita 9
    3-year-old Causewere Gamblers, March 30, Santa Anita 3
    4-year-old Notbyemyrules, March 30, Santa Anita 9
    2-year-old Jojonotjoelowe, April 3, Aqueduct, training
    6-year-old No Shenanigans, April 4, Pimlico 5
    6-year-old Crystallo, April 6, Mountaineer 3
    6-year-old Hudson Ridge, April 6, Pimlico 9
    8-year-old Casey’s On Call, April 9, Hawthorne 2
    2-year-old Ivebeensaved, April 12, Parx 6
    4-year-old Alondra Sky, April 13, Gulfstream 4
    5-year-old Here Comes Drz, April 15, Charles Town 6
    4-year-old American Iron, April 15, Finger Lakes, training
    2-year-old Crimson Flyer, April 16, Golden Gate, training
    3-year-old Sicard’s Sensation, April 17, Evangeline 10
    3-year-old Recovered, April 18, Finger Lakes 3
    11-year-old Southwind Tabor, April 21, Yonkers 12 (harness)
    10-year-old Laredos Goose, April 26, Cal Expo 5 (harness)
    4-year-old Marcelino Springs, April 26, Golden Gate 8
    5-year-old Marine, April 26, Gulfstream 9
    5-year-old Cuban Devil, April 27, Atlantic City 5
    8-year-old Golden Mexico, April 27, Golden Gate 4
    2-year-old La Jolla Cove, April 27, Santa Anita 2
    6-year-old Caverna, April 28, Beulah 2
    5-year-old Rock Elle Ten, April 30, Evangeline 2
    3-year-old Handstand, May 1, Belmont 6
    6-year-old Hotradamus, May 1, Santa Anita 3
    3-year-old Polar Pal, May 2, Evangeline 7
    2-year-old Onebaddancer, May 2, Golden Gate, training
    5-year-old Granny Calling, May 2, Santa Anita 1
    3-year-old Canadian Winner, May 3, Churchill 13
    9-year-old Boston Chief, May 3, Finger Lakes, training
    3-year-old Zion Hill, May 4, Mountaineer 6
    4-year-old Liberty Cruise, May 5, Yonkers 5 (harness)
    2-year-old Nightfall, May 8, Santa Anita 5
    5-year-old Looks Like a Saint, May 9, Indiana 6
    6-year-old Mad Magic, May 9, Pimlico 1
    3-year-old Aztec Secret, May 10, Louisiana 3
    3-year-old Gameboy Luke, May 10, Santa Anita 4
    4-year-old Mr Lemon Tree, May 11, Santa Anita 9
    5-year-old Rhythm of the Moon, May 14, Suffolk 4
    2-year-old Bold Fashion, May 15, Golden Gate, training
    3-year-old Oriental Silk, May 18, Louisiana 8
    5-year-old Blushing Martha, May 18, Mountaineer 8
    4-year-old Caillech’s Quest, May 18, Parx 4
    3-year-old Lucky for You, May 18, Saratoga, training
    4-year-old KZ Too, May 20, Monticello 8 (harness)
    5-year-old Summa Cum Boom, May 20, Parx 3
    3-year-old See the Music, May 21, Belmont 7
    5-year-old Never Tell Lynda, May 22, Churchill 1
    3-year-old Stadtpark, May 22, Santa Anita 4
    3-year-old Reflective Glory, May 24, Emerald 6
    5-year-old Big Note, May 24, Santa Anita 2
    5-year-old Silver Arch, May 27, Parx 7
    4-year-old Kingston Jamaica, May 29, Belmont, training
    3-year-old Jess a Speeder, May 30, Arapahoe 7
    5-year-old Kissinginthedark, May 30, Finger Lakes 1
    5-year-old Berrymeaux, May 31, Mountaineer 2
    3-year-old Archie’s All Heart, June 1, Parx 4
    4-year-old Der Boss, June 1, Pimlico 2
    5-year-old Samuels Blond Lady, June 5, Belmont 2
    4-year-old Sweet Teri K, June 7, Belterra 4
    5-year-old Lemon Sundae, June 7, Finger Lakes 1
    4-year-old Tebows Big Play, June 7, Golden Gate 9
    5-year-old Stormdefrere, June 7, Penn 3
    9-year-old Faith N Moon, June 8, Buffalo 5 (harness)
    8-year-old Lobo Del Norte, June 8, Parx 5
    5-year-old X Country Girl, June 8, Parx 7
    3-year-old Nics First Rainbow, June 9, Ruidoso 5
    5-year-old Gulf of Aden, June 10, Parx 1
    5-year-old Bear’s Spirit, June 12, Aqueduct, training
    4-year-old Shared Sacrifice, June 13, Los Alamitos 3 (Q)
    6-year-old J.B.’s Marquis, June 14, Louisiana 5
    5-year-old Hot Necker, June 14, Mountaineer 5
    4-year-old Socialbug, June 15, Churchill, training
    4-year-old My Jordy, June 17, Presque Isle 2
    2-year-old Fran’s Kid, June 18, Belmont, training
    2-year-old Summer Sanctuary, June 19, Delaware 4
    3-year-old Ol’ Bob, June 19, Louisiana 4
    4-year-old Chiffy, June 20, Penn 2
    5-year-old Lake Brilliant, June 20, Prairie 2
    3-year-old Cole Forty Five, June 20, Santa Anita 8
    6-year-old Birthday Wish, June 21, Belterra 7
    3-year-old Shanes Social Cat, June 21, Lone Star 2
    5-year-old How Far We’ve Come, June 22, Parx 8
    6-year-old Griffin Rock, June 23, Parx 1
    4-year-old Roses for Romney, June 25, Belmont 8
    5-year-old Mel’s Game, June 26, Santa Anita 1
    7-year-old Elsaroarin, June 27, Finger Lakes 9
    4-year-old Western Grit, June 28, Finger Lakes, training
    6-year-old Commandeer, June 28, Belterra 2
    4-year-old Papa Doc, June 28, Charles Town 4
    4-year-old Halos Wild, June 28, Lone Star 9
    5-year-old My Belle Etoile, July 4, Ellis 5
    3-year-old Michonne, July 4, Finger Lakes 9
    2-year-old Finns Huckleberry, July 4, Ruidoso 1
    5-year-old Guidopanzini, July 5, Oak Tree 9
    3-year-old This Guy Is Blue, July 6, Belmont 9
    9-year-old Streaterville, July 6, Mountaineer 6
    7-year-old Back Talking, July 9, Mountaineer 5
    5-year-old Our Deputy Express, July 10, Delaware 2
    5-year-old Lone Star Sizzler, July 12, Evangeline 7
    4-year-old Music Maid, July 13, Belmont 2
    4-year-old Corlett Drive, July 13, Del Mar, training
    5-year-old Finally Together, July 14, Mountaineer 9
    4-year-old Kokaltash, July 17, Del Mar 5
    4-year-old Indomitable Woman, July 17, Finger Lakes 5
    5-year-old Could Be a Rumor, July 18, Charles Town 6
    4-year-old Generator, July 18, Evangeline 8
    5-year-old Piskacha, July 19, Belterra 4
    3-year-old Missy Zelliott, July 20, Belmont, training
    2-year-old Washington Dacat, July 20, Canterbury 7
    3-year-old Ithink I Can Dance, July 22, Mountaineer 6
    5-year-old Mr Percussionist, July 22, Parx, race 1
    3-year-old Gryphon Gold, July 23, Santa Rosa, from July 20 Sacramento 7
    Shocker Topper, July 23, Santa Rosa, training
    3-year-old Dance With Fate, July 24, Del Mar, training
    4-year-old Lifeguard On Duty, July 24, Saratoga, training
    3-year-old Rue the Day, July 25, Charles Town 6
    4-year-old Yes She’s Unusual, July 25, Del Mar 6
    5-year-old Longview Drive, July 25, Del Mar 7
    3-year-old Movin’ On Up, July 25, Louisiana 8
    3-year-old Elusive Cowgirl, July 25, Monmouth 6
    3-year-old Double Gold, July 25, Saratoga, training
    5-year-old Lil Swiss Echo, July 26, Del Mar 5
    3-year-old J Kat, July 26, Del Mar 9
    3-year-old Chichita, July 26, Finger Lakes 1
    5-year-old Rockabar, July 26, Santa Rosa 8
    2-year-old Chilled Mousse, July 27, Del Mar, training
    7-year-old Gimmeanotherwink, July 28, Finger Lakes 2
    3-year-old Father Johns Pride, July 28, Saratoga 7
    5-year-old Majic Laughter, July 29, Batavia (harness)
    5-year-old Quorum, July 29, Finger Lakes 6
    4-year-old Cool Under Fire, July 29, Parx 8
    5-year-old Intimate Storm, July 30, Charles Town 6
    4-year-old Patinka, July 30, Presque Isle 3
    3-year-old Chattering Gambler, August 2, Del Mar 3
    5-year-old Markyour Territory, August 2, Fairmount 1
    2-year-old Sir William Bruce, August 2, Saratoga 5
    7-year-old Maji Moto, August 4, Mountaineer 7
    3-year-old Cat O Gold, August 8, Arapahoe 7
    3-year-old Western Sword, August 8, Penn 8
    4-year-old De Rage Girl, August 9, Parx 6
    3-year-old Trail Blaze, August 9, Parx 7
    4-year-old Who’strickingwho, August 10, Arapahoe 1
    7-year-old Bonita Muneca, August 10, Belterra 2
    5-year-old Exultant, August 10, Belterra 4
    4-year-old Regretless, August 11, Saratoga 4
    3-year-old Steppingood, August 13, Del Mar 8
    3-year-old Bullwhip, August 14, Charles Town 1
    3-year-old Deputy Gulch, August 14, Charles Town 2
    4-year-old Serious, August 14, from July 31 Del Mar 7
    3-year-old Bayview Drive, August 16, Del Mar 10
    3-year-old Zuni Tunes, August 16, Golden Gate 8
    6-year-old Winter’s Wildchild, August 17, Columbus 7
    7-year-old There Goes Kevin, August 17, Los Alamitos 1
    5-year-old Kevinator, August 17, Los Alamitos 1
    4-year-old Royal Hard Spun, August 17, Monmouth 3
    4-year-old Bonnie Lass, August 18, Delaware 2
    3-year-old M B and Tee, August 21, Saratoga 7
    2-year-old Little Tower, August 22, Del Mar 3
    5-year-old Celzo’s Birdie, August 22, Ferndale 4
    2-year-old Kamarius, August 23, Saratoga, training
    2-year-old Ludicrous, August 23, Saratoga 4
    7-year-old Magic Beam, August 24, Del Mar, training
    3-year-old Matagorda Bay, August 24, Gillespie 2
    3-year-old Elena Strikes, August 24, Saratoga, training
    8-year-old Be a Pro, August 25, Presque Isle 3
    7-year-old Makari, August 25, Saratoga 1
    3-year-old Run for Papa, August 26, Fairmount 1
    3-year-old Vanessa Halo, August 26, Finger Lakes, training
    3-year-old Manda Moo, August 26, Parx 8
    5-year-old Posh Acres, August 28, Charles Town 1
    3-year-old Cause Im a Bigshot, August 28, Del Mar, training
    2-year-old Divine Guidance, August 29, from August 27 Saratoga 5
    4-year-old See See See, August 29, Belmont, from August 15 Monmouth 4
    3-year-old My Kinda Girl, August 30, Charles Town 4
    3-year-old Kitagal, August 30, Louisiana 3
    4-year-old Paper Tigress, August 30, Parx 8
    6-year-old Washington’s Rules, August 30, Suffolk 6
    3-year-old Nacho Preacher, August 31, Golden Gate 5
    3-year-old Runaway Bridle, August 31, Thistledown 4
    3-year-old Florida Bull, September 3, Thistledown 8
    2-year-old Ligety, September 5, Los Alamitos (T) 3
    3-year-old Ifyougotthenotion, September 6, Parx 8
    3-year-old Gerryland, September 7, Finger Lakes, training
    3-year-old Kitt’s Kool Katt, September 7, Finger Lakes, training
    4-year-old Ego Friendly, September 10, Belmont, training
    3-year-old Frat Man, September 10, Charles Town 7
    3-year-old I Love Penny, September 10, Penn 3
    2-year-old Funnys Man Dream, September 11, Belterra 1
    5-year-old Kingliest, September 11, Belterra 6
    4-year-old Foxy Syd, September 11, Penn 5
    4-year-old Eddington Bay, September 11, Penn 9
    6-year-old Tale of Lucknfame, September 12, Belterra 7
    4-year-old Strategic Player, September 12, Retama 5
    3-year-old Freddie Freud, September 13, Belmont, training
    4-year-old DJ’s Hope, September 13, Finger Lakes 5
    3-year-old X Why Zee, September 13, Parx 10
    3-year-old Matched Ruler, September 13, Thistledown 8
    2-year-old Souper Arch, September 14, Monmouth 4
    5-year-old Paul Ford, September 14, Pleasanton, training
    3-year-old Jackson Station, September 18, Remington 2
    4-year-old Kiwi Ruler, September 19, Penn 6
    2-year-old Tale of the Spa, September 19, Saratoga, training
    3-year-old Hearts n’ Diamonds, September 20, Monmouth 7
    3-year-old Kat Alpha, September 22, Mountaineer 3
    6-year-old Italian Nany, September 24, Penn 7
    3-year-old Men Dee Go, September 26, Lone Star 3
    3-year-old Run Albert Run, September 27, Penn 6
    3-year-old Showmewhatyougot, September 27, Stockton 6
    4-year-old Native Tea Rose, September 28, Los Alamitos (Q) 9
    4-year-old Forward Momentum, September 28, Monmouth 8
    3-year-old Get Your Praise On, September 28, Stockton 4
    4-year-old Secret Memo, September 28, Stockton 5
    2-year-old Here in a Hurry, October 1, Belmont, training
    4-year-old G W’s Hammer, October 3, Finger Lakes 5
    4-year-old Tangible Assets, October 3, Thistledown 8
    4-year-old Stormy Henry, October 4, Parx 6
    4-year-old Dave’s Cutie, October 4, Thistledown 7
    4-year-old Bizzy E F, October 5, Thistledown 1
    3-year-old Bee Boppin Along, October 9, Charles Town 7
    3-year-old Grand Arrival, October 10, Belmont, training
    2-year-old Velvet Sandy, October 11, Parx 1
    3-year-old Intelligent Girl, October 11, Remington 1
    2-year-old Giant Hearted Lee, October 13, Belmont 5
    5-year-old Cactus City Road, October 13, Laurel 2
    4-year-old Masaru, October 14, Indiana 8
    4-year-old Platitude, October 14, Indiana 8
    3-year-old Put It Back Martha, October 15, Charles Town 3
    2-year-old Sheza Freak, October 17, Delta 7
    5-year-old Fly to Freedom, October 17, Santa Anita 3
    3-year-old Dreamo, October 18, Penn 9


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  2. #2
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    Well I think everyone agrees that one death is too many, but your information would be more meaningful if you furnished percentage of starters at those tracks, and included several years' worth of data, so we could see whether things are getting better or worse.


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  3. #3
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    Several years ago on Coth on a thread I complained about how many race horses died not only in races, but while training on the track. Just about every Cother on that thread disagree, including those who claimed to be owners and trainers of race horses.

    Then the official report of horses killed in races was published and put on Coth a year or so later, and all those same Cothers claimed to have not known about the high number of deaths. If I, a person who went to the track often but did not race could see horses breaking down and dying, does it seem logical that those who actually were trainers and owners could not see the deaths or hear about them? Denial. Penny Tweedy came out after Eight Belles went down, and said that racing was not the same as it had been back in the day. And Barbaro, yikes, who thinks that high number of fractures in that leg was happenstance?

    Too bad Dick Hertz was banned. His wife is a trainer and he saw it all at Penn National and elsewhere. I'm sure that the "trainers" on Coth will claim not to know about all the deaths so far this year. One of the Breeders Cups years ago on TV had dead horses in several races. When breeders go back to training horses and not running them too fast too young on tracks too hard, then we'll have less dead horses on the tracks.


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  4. #4
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    What's the population size?

    Because 330 sounds like a lot, but % wise it may be meaningless.

    Also, your list includes horses that broke down in training with horses that broke down in a race. You're combining 2 populations. It should be # of breakdowns in training out of # of horses in training, and then # of breakdowns in races vs TOTAL # of starts.

    So for example, if there are 150 horses that brokedown in training and there are 20,000 horses in training across the US at all tracks, it's .75% (less than 1%)

    If there are 150 horses that broke down in a race and there were 100,000 starts, it's .15%.

    In your attempt to make an argument about the huge # of horses dying as a result of race related activities you may find it's actually a very statistically tiny number of horses.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings


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  5. #5
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    330 horses in less than 10 months is way too many, no matter what the % vs population is...
    way too many... most are young horses too.


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  6. #6
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    How many other horses died this year so far of other than natural infirmities of old age?


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  7. #7
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    Would you respond with the math the same way if that had been a list of children playing pro sports?

    Heck, that is what most of those horses are. 2 year olds. 3 year olds.

    And NONE of them would choose to die running for money if they understood the concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by littleum View Post
    What's the population size?

    Because 330 sounds like a lot, but % wise it may be meaningless.

    Also, your list includes horses that broke down in training with horses that broke down in a race. You're combining 2 populations. It should be # of breakdowns in training out of # of horses in training, and then # of breakdowns in races vs TOTAL # of starts.

    So for example, if there are 150 horses that brokedown in training and there are 20,000 horses in training across the US at all tracks, it's .75% (less than 1%)

    If there are 150 horses that broke down in a race and there were 100,000 starts, it's .15%.

    In your attempt to make an argument about the huge # of horses dying as a result of race related activities you may find it's actually a very statistically tiny number of horses.
    My herd for life:
    King: 20 year old Foxtrotter gelding
    Ruais: 7 year old Friesian/Arabian mare
    http://imgur.com/a/LSPiJ#0


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmarachAcres View Post
    And NONE of them would choose to die running for money if they understood the concept.
    The 5 horse in this race did not get your message.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KbFbG_48M


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  9. #9
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    Percentage wise, how many OTTBs survived the racetrack only to break down in eventing?

    How many mustangs running free stepped in holes and broke legs?


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmarachAcres View Post
    Would you respond with the math the same way if that had been a list of children playing pro sports?

    Heck, that is what most of those horses are. 2 year olds. 3 year olds.

    And NONE of them would choose to die running for money if they understood the concept.

    I have a news flash:

    When someone is attempting to draw attention to what something they think is bad and are looking to incite change one of the absolute worst things that person can do is to not handle their statistics correctly. Or to make emotional pleas like you just did- likening 2 and 3yo horses to children.

    Am I saying that horses dying in pursuit of ANY sport is okay? Am I saying that animal safety and welfare should not be priority #1? No. But shit happens. Horses die galloping around perfectly safe pastures. Should horses not be allowed to gallop around a pasture?


    When someone refuses to look at the whole data picture ("one death is too many! Think of the ponies!") it actually doesn't help the cause at all, and it makes it seem like they're deliberately ignoring data that will disprove their position.

    For example, let's say that that 150 of the horses above died making a start, and that across ALL tracks and ALL grades and ALL ages for the YTD there were 43,139 starts made (2013 numbers). That's .3% fatality. That seems a tad high to me, but it's hardly get your pitchforks and decry racing as a brutal, soulless, cruel sport.

    Also, such numbers don't take into account the caliber of races. Are injuries clustered at the low end of the sport? Does more oversight need to happen at certain tracks or at a certain level? Because if the situation is that most injuries are clustered around a certain part of the support (eg, claimers under $5,000, or certain tracks) then it's not the entire SPORT that's flawed, but a certain segment of the sport.

    When you don't approach and deal with ALL the data, and just ignore data, and hinge you entire argument on one number it just makes your entire position look poorly considered and invalid. Much greater care must be taken. Basing your entire argument on one number + a "one horse is too many" accomplishes nothing.

    The "one horse is too many" argument does not hold up when we know that horses murder themselves in the stupidest possible ways. By the extension of that argument no horse should ever be allowed outside a padded stall. And even THEN some will find a way to kill themselves.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings


    16 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    The 5 horse in this race did not get your message.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KbFbG_48M
    That was great! Thanks for sharing.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    The 5 horse in this race did not get your message.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KbFbG_48M
    Holy crap. That horse is epic. Look at him trying to sneak between horses at the end, then go "nope, that's not going to work, to the outside!"

    That horse didn't just want to run, that horse wanted to WIN.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings


    17 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    The 5 horse in this race did not get your message.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KbFbG_48M
    I did not say they don't love to run or win.

    I said they would not choose to die running for money.

    As in, if a human doesn't catch that a horse is at it's limit or has something wrong, or doesn't care, that horse can very well die racing.

    My post was not meant to be an anti-racing post, it was meant to be an anti horses dying for the wrong reasons post.
    My herd for life:
    King: 20 year old Foxtrotter gelding
    Ruais: 7 year old Friesian/Arabian mare
    http://imgur.com/a/LSPiJ#0


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
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    Yeah I wouldn't choose it die in a car wreck either, yet it's not going to keep me from driving.


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  15. #15
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    It was this comment that set me off: Because 330 sounds like a lot, but % wise it may be meaningless.


    I don't find it meaningless. Yes horses die running in a pasture. Kid's die running across a street without looking both ways. Neither of those events are what we are discussing.

    People are allowed to feel something is wrong to their line in the sand.

    If one of my horses died trail riding because the trail gave out and we fell that is different than if I kept pushing my horse past their limits and caused her to fall from exhaustion.

    Again, I never said "one horse dying in any manner is too many".

    However, one horse dying from being pushed too hard or health issues were ignored IS one too many.

    I didn't ignore your data, I just didn't see how all of it was relevant to what I was saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by littleum View Post
    I have a news flash:

    When someone is attempting to draw attention to what something they think is bad and are looking to incite change one of the absolute worst things that person can do is to not handle their statistics correctly. Or to make emotional pleas like you just did- likening 2 and 3yo horses to children.

    Am I saying that horses dying in pursuit of ANY sport is okay? Am I saying that animal safety and welfare should not be priority #1? No. But shit happens. Horses die galloping around perfectly safe pastures. Should horses not be allowed to gallop around a pasture?


    When someone refuses to look at the whole data picture ("one death is too many! Think of the ponies!") it actually doesn't help the cause at all, and it makes it seem like they're deliberately ignoring data that will disprove their position.

    For example, let's say that that 150 of the horses above died making a start, and that across ALL tracks and ALL grades and ALL ages for the YTD there were 43,139 starts made (2013 numbers). That's .3% fatality. That seems a tad high to me, but it's hardly get your pitchforks and decry racing as a brutal, soulless, cruel sport.

    Also, such numbers don't take into account the caliber of races. Are injuries clustered at the low end of the sport? Does more oversight need to happen at certain tracks or at a certain level? Because if the situation is that most injuries are clustered around a certain part of the support (eg, claimers under $5,000, or certain tracks) then it's not the entire SPORT that's flawed, but a certain segment of the sport.

    When you don't approach and deal with ALL the data, and just ignore data, and hinge you entire argument on one number it just makes your entire position look poorly considered and invalid. Much greater care must be taken. Basing your entire argument on one number + a "one horse is too many" accomplishes nothing.

    The "one horse is too many" argument does not hold up when we know that horses murder themselves in the stupidest possible ways. By the extension of that argument no horse should ever be allowed outside a padded stall. And even THEN some will find a way to kill themselves.
    My herd for life:
    King: 20 year old Foxtrotter gelding
    Ruais: 7 year old Friesian/Arabian mare
    http://imgur.com/a/LSPiJ#0


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennywho View Post
    Yeah I wouldn't choose it die in a car wreck either, yet it's not going to keep me from driving.
    I agree.

    But if someone made you work out at the gym so long that you were barely able to walk to the car, and your reflexes were shot, and then you died in a car wreck because you couldn't drive any more, wouldn't that be different?
    My herd for life:
    King: 20 year old Foxtrotter gelding
    Ruais: 7 year old Friesian/Arabian mare
    http://imgur.com/a/LSPiJ#0


    5 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by littleum View Post
    I have a news flash:

    When someone is attempting to draw attention to what something they think is bad and are looking to incite change one of the absolute worst things that person can do is to not handle their statistics correctly. Or to make emotional pleas like you just did- likening 2 and 3yo horses to children.

    Am I saying that horses dying in pursuit of ANY sport is okay? Am I saying that animal safety and welfare should not be priority #1? No. But shit happens. Horses die galloping around perfectly safe pastures. Should horses not be allowed to gallop around a pasture?

    When you don't approach and deal with ALL the data, and just ignore data, and hinge you entire argument on one number it just makes your entire position look poorly considered and invalid. Much greater care must be taken. Basing your entire argument on one number + a "one horse is too many" accomplishes nothing.
    You need to follow your own advice here. Comparing racing to turnout is no more valid or sensible than comparing young horses to human children.

    This is just a pointless debate. Everyone has a different level of risk tolerance for themselves, their kids, their animals, their money, whatever.
    Everyone is entitled to my opinion.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    I do not care if they died in the middle of a race, or training at a training center, or had to be put down after they were vanned off the track. 330 & counting is a horrifying amount, in my own personal opinion, I do not care what percentages you are trying to use for an excuse.

    Here is I was still trying to somehow justify getting a racehorse. The above list, & then the responses, sure is not helping the case for joining the ranks of racing ownership. Some of the attitudes just drive would be owners away all the faster.

    Your sport is dying. You need new folks to come in with their money. Some of your attitudes is not going to bring more money in.

    And a couple here know how badly I want a race horse.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmarachAcres View Post
    I agree.

    But if someone made you work out at the gym so long that you were barely able to walk to the car, and your reflexes were shot, and then you died in a car wreck because you couldn't drive any more, wouldn't that be different?
    So you attribute every single one of those breakdowns due to human negligence?

    I have no doubt- NONE- that some of them are in fact due to the horses being pushed too hard. But to say every single time a horse breaks down in a race is because the people caring for the horse failed is absurd and you know it. Sometimes bad things just happen and it's nobody's fault and nobody did anything wrong.

    You can argue that "babies shouldn't be running that hard" but that list is full of 4, 5 and 6 year old horses. So the argument that it's all the evils of an industry that pushes babies well... the data isn't really there to support it. In fact, there's a body of data that suggests that horses that are started sooner fair better due to bone density.

    The point I'm trying to make to you is when you "draw a line in the sand" and that line in the sand is "1 fatality is too many" you do yourself a disservice.

    It's JUST like when the carrot-waving folks say that if you have a true bond with your horse that you'll never need a drop or spurs or they'll never pin their ears or whatever else. When someone says that to you (assuming you don't drink Kool Aid) you roll your eyes and go "okay" and generally assume to be ignorant of equine reality. When someone starts making statements about "1 horse is too many" et all in racing, and "no horse should ever break down in sport" it's the exact same thing. It's a great thing to aim for but sometimes bad things happen and there is NOTHING and NO ONE to blame, and anyone with an actual practical viewpoint on the subject will claim that it's possible to make the sport devoid of any causalities.

    Not that we should not endeavor to make our respective sports as safe and humane as possible, but my point is that when you take the attitude you take you actually do more harm than good and undermine your efforts and credibility.

    There are always going to be people like me who look you square in the eye and say "Wow. Really? That's a pretty sweeping statement. It's awful it's true. What do the numbers say? Where is the problem? Is it the whole sport or certain ages or certain tracks or certain rungs? We need to find the problem so we can fix it."

    And your response is "It doesn't matter! It's 330 horses! One is too many! The entire sport is to blame! The entire thing is just disgusting!"

    It's a completely unproductive way of confronting an issue.
    "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by littleum View Post
    So you attribute every single one of those breakdowns due to human negligence?
    Oh good grief, I never said that. I said that any death due to intentional human negligence is bad. My reply was because you made it sound like if the percentage of deaths caused by said negligence is under a certain amount that it is meaningless. I am saying that if of those 300+ deaths, any that were caused by intentional negligence, even if it is just one, THAT one is too many.


    I have no doubt- NONE- that some of them are in fact due to the horses being pushed too hard. But to say every single time a horse breaks down in a race is because the people caring for the horse failed is absurd and you know it. Sometimes bad things just happen and it's nobody's fault and nobody did anything wrong.
    When did I say this??

    You can argue that "babies shouldn't be running that hard" but that list is full of 4, 5 and 6 year old horses. So the argument that it's all the evils of an industry that pushes babies well... the data isn't really there to support it. In fact, there's a body of data that suggests that horses that are started sooner fair better due to bone density.
    It is not FULL of 4, 5 and 6 year olds. It has plenty of 2 and 3 year olds. Physical activity is absolutely good for bone density. Riding them at that age however is NOT good for their spines and other growth plates.

    The point I'm trying to make to you is when you "draw a line in the sand" and that line in the sand is "1 fatality is too many" you do yourself a disservice.
    My line in the sand is that "1 fatality due to intentional human negligence is too many".

    It's JUST like when the carrot-waving folks say that if you have a true bond with your horse that you'll never need a drop or spurs or they'll never pin their ears or whatever else. When someone says that to you (assuming you don't drink Kool Aid) you roll your eyes and go "okay" and generally assume to be ignorant of equine reality.
    Agreed.

    When someone starts making statements about "1 horse is too many" et all in racing, and "no horse should ever break down in sport" it's the exact same thing. It's a great thing to aim for but sometimes bad things happen and there is NOTHING and NO ONE to blame, and anyone with an actual practical viewpoint on the subject will claim that it's possible to make the sport devoid of any causalities.
    Is there no way to err on the side of caution? There is no way to prevent these deaths? I feel the same way about Endurance, High Level Eventing, etc... There are so many winning riders that have never had a horse die, so there must be ways to prevent it. I am not talking about doing everything you can and a horse has cardiac arrest, I'm talking about people who don't give a shit about pushing these animals too far and too hard.

    I am not anti-racing. I'm anti-horses dying for money.

    Not that we should not endeavor to make our respective sports as safe and humane as possible, but my point is that when you take the attitude you take you actually do more harm than good and undermine your efforts and credibility.
    I really don't get why you are reading so much into what I said. I re read my original reply and still do not see where you are getting that I am blaming every owner/trainer/rider for every death.

    There are always going to be people like me who look you square in the eye and say "Wow. Really? That's a pretty sweeping statement. It's awful it's true. What do the numbers say? Where is the problem? Is it the whole sport or certain ages or certain tracks or certain rungs? We need to find the problem so we can fix it."
    I never disagreed with this. I disagreed with calling the deaths meaningless.


    And your response is "It doesn't matter! It's 330 horses! One is too many! The entire sport is to blame! The entire thing is just disgusting!"
    Are you talking about someone else's replies?? I never said anything like that. What the heck.


    It's a completely unproductive way of confronting an issue.
    Sharing ones thoughts is the whole purpose of these BB's. I'm sorry if the way I shared mine was so misconstrued by those reading my words.
    My herd for life:
    King: 20 year old Foxtrotter gelding
    Ruais: 7 year old Friesian/Arabian mare
    http://imgur.com/a/LSPiJ#0


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