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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 3, 2006
    Posts
    106

    Default fresh v frozen, any thoughts, stories from frozen users?

    We're probably all thinking about our breeding plans for this year already. I've never used frozen semen, but just reading an article in Warmbloods Today about frozen semen has me nearly thinking it could be doable after all. Any thoughts from any of you, or from any of you with experience witih both?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2008
    Posts
    1,646

    Default

    What you'll hear from most - and I thoroughly agree - -- get yourself a very experienced, proven repro-vet who specializes in frozen.
    From the 1st 5 vets I used, covering 6 mares and many stallions, during a 5 year period, I had one live foal from 20+ attempts. My "million dollar baby".
    One of those 5 vets, reputedly the best in Canada, failed on 4 mares, 4 different stallions' semen, during a 2 year period. (the mares ranged in age from 3 to 8 years old, including the one mare who had given me the live birth)
    Those 4 mares each caught, 1st attempt, with my current vet.
    So - get the right vet.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
    Posts
    1,380

    Default

    We have not had this experience first hand, but have been told by fellow breeders that it can happen that your faithful and competent frozen repro specialist can suddenly get bored or sleep--deprived and fall completely down on the job! One friend had this happen with her until-then reliable repro specialist and she lost well over $10,000 in frozen before she realized what was happening.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 8, 2004
    Posts
    486

    Default

    Wow! I am sorry to hear you guys have had or heard of such bad experiences!

    I actually prefer frozen now, because it is always available when you need it. I find if you have to order the day before collection for fresh, and get next day delivery, you end up with about a 48 hour window from your call to delivery. It can be a challenge to know what is going to happen in those 48 hours.

    That said, fresh, cooled is much more forgiving in that you can inseminate well before ovulation and still get a pregnancy. So even if your mare progresses slower than you anticipate, you might still be able to inseminate.

    Of course, frozen is best used with a knowledgeable vet, and a reproductively sound mare. We have had very good success with it!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 1999
    Location
    Clayton, CA USA
    Posts
    4,966

    Default

    When frozen semen works, it is wonderful. It is so refreshing to have the semen waiting at the repro. vet to be put in the mare; the ordering and the 24 hour nail-biter is a process I'm delighted to leave in my past. However, I have lost $$$$ on frozen, both buying unproven semen and having an uncooperative mare, so most definitely do your homework before taking the plunge.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2005
    Location
    The Prairie
    Posts
    5,448

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by clint View Post
    When frozen semen works, it is wonderful.
    Ain't it the truth?

    I had been warned not to use frozen with a maiden, twice I did not heed that warning and did not end up with a pregnant mare.

    The one mare conceived with frozen right away after she had had a couple foals via fresh shipped. The other one, a maiden, did not co-operate either but then did get in foal via LC. I will try the frozen with her either this year or possibly the next.

    However, a number of breeders on this forum apparently have no problem using frozen with a maiden.

    I have also seen scenarios where one vet seems to work for one breeder but not another and vice versa.

    Perhaps the vet and the mare need to be "aligned" or something
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    8,289

    Default

    I first bred mares using frozen semen in 2000. Overall, I have had a very good rate of success, but I am very lucky to have had dedicated and knowledgeable vets. When it works well, frozen can be great. When the semen is not so good or the mare not such a good candidate for it, you can quickly lose thousands.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    4,574

    Default

    I am one who actually prefers frozen, with the caveat that when things go bad it can get expensive in a hurry. At this point I almost always start with frozen, but have a back-up plan for each mare with fresh cooled. I generally give my mares two tries/year with frozen and if that doesn't work I switch to fresh. I've had really good success with frozen even on older mares, but I far prefer using it on younger or even maiden mares. Definitely find someone who is proficient in using frozen, and be prepared to take their advice. It is frustrating for everyone when an owner insists on using frozen even though there are clear reasons why it might not be a good idea for that mare (older maiden, fluid issues, poor biopsy, etc). Some people really have their heart set on using frozen, but be prepared with a back-up plan in case that doesn't work.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2008
    Location
    Paris (France)
    Posts
    761

    Default

    Some SF "Chef de Race" those stallions have multiple progeny at GP level, I cite the most famous: (some have all ready the fifth generation of international GP winners.

    Almé > Galoubet > Baloubet du Rouet > South Wind
    Almé > Galoubet > Quickstar > Sprehe Stella
    Almé > Jalisco B > Quidam de Revel > Nabab de reve > Vigo d'Arsouille
    Almé > Jalisco B > Papillon Rouge > Fleche Rouge
    Almé > Jalisco B > Olisco > Kraque Boom
    Le Tot de Semilly > Diamant de Semilly > Kalaska de Semilly
    "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two imposters just the same"
    Rudyard Kipling
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Quartz...26013000796803



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    510

    Default

    Didn't connect any dots with Andy's post...

    Anyway, I certainly underscore the GOOD VET advice. My experiences have been all over the map:

    Tries / pregnancies
    2/0 frozen Indoctro, twinned, pinched one, lost both.
    Rebred - no go.
    2/0 frozen Incolor
    2/2 fresh Coromino = 2 different mares, colt & filly
    2/0 fresh Noble Champion on 2 different mares
    2/2 fresh Routinier, 1 x mare slipped hers, the other = filly.
    1/0 frozen Luxius
    1/1 frozen Cardento = colt
    2/1 fresh Apiro = 2009 filly
    GreenGate Stables
    http://ggstables.webs.com/



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
    Posts
    1,380

    Default

    On the unCouth BB, there is an inventory of frozen semen breedings- successes and failures. It is a bit cumbersome to use and really needs a computer or statistics expert (not me) to put it in more useable form, but it does contain useful information.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
    Posts
    6,637

    Default

    First thing is to get a vet who is VERY experienced with frozen and who has a good success rate with breeding with frozen.

    Second thing is to make sure that there have been pregnancies and foals from frozen for the stallion in whom you are interested.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    510

    Default

    FWIW should perhaps add some local breeder friends' stats:

    1/1 frozen Starlight = filly
    2/2 frozen De Niro = both fillies
    1/1 frozen Belissimo due spring 2010
    1/1 Quattro = colt

    From the same vet service as mine!
    GreenGate Stables
    http://ggstables.webs.com/



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct. 30, 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
    We have not had this experience first hand, but have been told by fellow breeders that it can happen that your faithful and competent frozen repro specialist can suddenly get bored or sleep--deprived and fall completely down on the job! One friend had this happen with her until-then reliable repro specialist and she lost well over $10,000 in frozen before she realized what was happening.
    I have seen this happen as well. After visiting the repro's facility and doing some simple math with number of mares on site, it quickly became apparent that there was no way one vet could do all the scanning and palps around the clock.

    Re: frozen with maiden mares. I believe the reason many prefer not to try frozen with a maiden mare is because a maiden mare will have a very tight cervix, and that can lead to uterine clearance issues, inflammatory fluids that occur in the uterus from the breeding and cannot be expelled well enough to support conception.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
    Location
    North Central Florida
    Posts
    1,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy-lou View Post

    Re: frozen with maiden mares. I believe the reason many prefer not to try frozen with a maiden mare is because a maiden mare will have a very tight cervix, and that can lead to uterine clearance issues, inflammatory fluids that occur in the uterus from the breeding and cannot be expelled well enough to support conception.

    Thank you so much for that explanation. I lost two doses of frozen Coriander to a maiden in two separate breedings with a TOP-NOTCH repro vet in precisely these circumstances. Now I undertand why!
    This time we are using fresh with her. After our initial experience, we now try to use fresh with all the maidens- except for Ana who did not get pregnant with Consul fresh but did with Consul frozen.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    8,289

    Default

    I have had great results with frozen and maidens. Only once did I have a maiden fail to conceive with frozen.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    4,574

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Home Again Farm View Post
    I have had great results with frozen and maidens. Only once did I have a maiden fail to conceive with frozen.
    I agree; maidens are usually no problem, with the exception being older maidens. Older maidens can be a real nightmare, b/c of the tight cervix and propensity to retain fluid. An inflammatory response resulting in some fluid is quite common when dealing with frozen. Generally this can be easily addressed with oxytocin, and even lavaging if neccessary. Some mares also benefit from the use of medications to temporarily relax the cervix, but generally speaking I'd rather use frozen semen on younger maidens vs. any other mare.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 1999
    Location
    Clayton, CA USA
    Posts
    4,966

    Default

    Here is the link to the thread on uncouth giving data on frozen and fresh semen breeding statistics. I have found this very useful. http://uncouthbb.com/forum/viewtopic...80d1bcde8dfd19
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
    Posts
    1,377

    Default

    Who else has repro vet's that use deep horn insemination? Mine do, and I couldn't be happier with the results! I've used fresh and frozen.

    Examples with frozen:
    3 frozen doses of same stallion, 3 different mares = 3 foals
    Maiden, first try breeding, 1 frozen dose = 1 foal
    Less than full frozen dose = 1 foal
    (other successes, but the above are the most noteworthy)

    Many other one dose fresh/one try = foal!



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 25, 2002
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    1,271

    Default

    I have had good luck with frozen and am one that prefers to use it also. You need an experienced vet, proven semen and a healthy mare. I have used maidens successfully. There are no "Chinese Fire Drills" to the airport to pick up fresh semen and just less stress all the way around knowing that the semen is at the vets and there is nothing you have to do. Always have a backup dose in case there is a problem and good luck!
    It's not true that I had nothing on. I had the radio on.”
    ? Marilyn Monroe



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