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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2009
    Posts
    98

    Default If you could breed your upper-level eventer to anyone...

    If money was not an option and you wanted a drool-worthy baby that could be a potential upper-level eventer, who would you breed to?

    ~~~~~~

    I am a lurker coming out of the dark in need of a little *fun* help. Im very seriously considering breeding my mare this spring but I have absolutly no idea where to start. So I figured I would ask my favorite COTHs for any and all opinions. I put a little info about her below, but please feel free to post any stallions you would love to breed to.

    The mare in question is a 16.1hh big-boned TB. She is in the oldenburg main mare book and has thrown 3 super nice babies for her previous owner. She competed 2 seasons of Intermediate, 3rd level dressage, 4' jumpers. She is a fantastic mover and put together really well. The main aspects I would like to enhance are her marish/unruley behavior (she is the b*tch of the barn) and have her baby be a bit braver on XC. She also has a bit of a weak/long back, so Im trying to stay away from anything that would add to that.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2002
    Location
    Prospect, ME
    Posts
    4,565

    Default

    I've heard wonderful things about Jumbo. But I'm not sure if semen is still available in the US. EMCO's page says they are sold out...
    -Jessica



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2003
    Location
    Middleburg, VA
    Posts
    12,879

    Default

    If I had a nice mare I think my top two choices would be Brandenburg's Windstar and Catherston Dazzler. I have been nothing but impressed with the Windstar babies I've seen (and there seems to be more and more every year) and he is proving to be a capable produce of upper level babies. Dazzler is a very, very proven sire of upper level kiddos. We actually have a client with 2 that were born this year. I've yet to get to see them in person (they live in SC, I live in MD), but judging by their pictures they should be nice (both mamas are very nice mares, but not nearly the resume that the mare in question has).

    I don't really know how either would cross with your mare since I haven't paid THAT close of attention to those details (considering I don't have a mare to breed, I only admire and make a list for the imaginary mare). Both the ones I like have some who say their offspring can be difficult...although seems that almost equal number say they are just fine (and Windstar seems to have just as many babies running around with ammies as he does really nice UL babies, so I think that says something about the kind of temperament stamp he leaves). I don't know how true it is in either case or what that would do for a witchy mare attitude. But I think they are both worth having high on the list of ones to investigate further.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,460

    Default

    I'd definitely consider this guy if you are interested in using frozen.
    http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=2878

    His lines have produced mostly jumpers, but there are a few event horses and dressage horses, including one that was ridden by Anky van Grusven.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
    Location
    passepartout
    Posts
    10,038

    Default

    For a TB mare, I'd look at Catherston Dazzler, Jumbo and Fleetwater Opposition. They all have produced many, many, many UL horses from TB mares.

    If you want a shorter-coupled horse, Catherston Dazzler and Fleetwater Opposition are more likely to produce that than Jumbo. With Jumbo, the offspring tend to be much more like the mare but with an excellent brain.

    Catherston Dazzler really stamps his offspring -- if you like what you see in pics of his babies, that's what you'll be getting. And if you really do want to breed, you'll have to act quickly to get some CD semen as there's not much left and as he's going on 26, won't be re-frozen for the US.

    I have a CD mare (his 1st North American foal) who is 7 and competing at Intermediate. She's a stunning horse and a genuinely friendly animal (she doesn't take after her mother in this aspect), just delightful to have around. I've got more semen in the freezer to breed some full siblings because I like this one so much.

    I wouldn't recommend Brandenburg's Windstar. Life's too short.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2001
    Posts
    5,124

    Default

    For temperament, I'd say A Fine Romance tends to throw one of the most consistently trainable, easy-going, amateur friendly personalities I've seen. We've had three AFRs in our barn who all went Preliminary or Intermediate and were all fabulous, dead-easy brains: straightforward in the barn, easy to be around, hack out on the buckle, yet still very very trainable and fun. I've handled or ridden or played with six other AFR youngsters and they were the same way. So while not a true representative sample, but good enough to be suggestive, at least in my book. All quite good movers, decent amount of scope.

    I think Windstar can be a bit of a crapshoot - I've seen some absolutely lovely youngsters from him, and some that were a bit heavier than I tend to prefer, so I think he's one that the type of mare is critical. The ones I've seen were not necessarily my first choice for amateur rides, but they were all very very sweet animals with gorgeous movement.

    I've only seen two Dazzler babies in person, but they were both lovely. I'm looking forward to seeing the early crops out of Formula One, who at least as an individual has alot that I'd look for in a stallion and I love the way he's put together. Will be very interesting to see what he throws. Alternately, if I was darn-the-consequences, it has to jump the moon, I'd look for something Babamist lines if I could find it.

    But all of that's in isolation. I don't think one picks a stallion without very carefully considering the mare in question and what job in an ideal world you want the offspring to do, and then think about what the worst combination of those two would be like.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Location
    KY, USA
    Posts
    1,926

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    Sounds familiar! We bred Megan's 16'2" Intermediate mare to Windfall, and the match was perfect. He added trot, trainability, and good sense to Hailey's tremendous gallop and scope, resulting in a (now) 5-year old Anglo-Trakehner stallion, Nightfall. She also had a very long back, and Nightfall is perfectly balanced and compact. Hailey was also a b**ch, at times unrideable - we've cleaned out more than one warmup ring; Nightfall is unflappable, fears nothing, and as a stallion is handled routinely by kids and teenaged girls; most people don't realize he's a stallion. He LOVES attention, and his best shows are in electric atomospheres where he seems to "poof up" and say, look at me! In the wind and weather, flags, and big time atmosphere at Lamplight last year, he topped the 4 year old YEH class with elan for the blue ribbon! He won the Area VIII Beginner Novice Championship at Jump Start this year, and missed his gold medal at Beginner Novice by 0.5 points in only 5 starts. The Holekamps are super people to deal with, and I recommend Windfall without reservation. I'd be happy to post pix of Hailey and Nightfall for comparison if you're interested, and obviously Windfall pix are easy to come by. As Jo Whitehouse said at a Rolex breeding symposium a couple of years ago, "Nightfall is a carbon copy of his sire Windfall."

    We also like Catherston Dazzler; we've got one of his in the oven for 2010 out of the dam of Megan's advanced horse, Widespread Panic. We're keeping our fingers crossed -- a known sire of multiple advanced horses, out of a proven advanced producer -- GULP!!!! Probably end up a trail horse, go figure! But she took on first breeding and we've got another dose in storage for next year as well.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2006
    Posts
    630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I wouldn't recommend Brandenburg's Windstar. Life's too short.
    I have two. The younger, now 9, is so much fun to ride, in all situations. Has such a great mind, a willing attitude, great athlete. The other, 10, has been much easier bringing along but big for me, so that has been the challenge for me personally.

    They are both complete and total sweetie pies. Good work ethics, especially the younger mare.

    I think the babies can be difficult early on (but that's true of many babies), but I've never met one who can't jump the moon. One of mine is an exceptional mover; the other good. I'm an adult ammie, so big learning curve. With a better rider, each would be much farther along, and, I think, very competitive at the top levels.

    OP: you might want to contact P. Wynn. Based on her posts here, she's done a lot of research and has bred to some of the best.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 2, 2009
    Posts
    12

    Default

    There is an Irish Draught Stallion that stands in Texas whose kids are just entering the "riding" world. One of them has been in the USEA mag for FEI a few times. He's unflappable and so are his kids. Great conformation. His name is Braveheart. I'd breed to him in a heart beat!!! It's a name that is an up and comer!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr. 25, 2003
    Location
    Southern MD
    Posts
    1,443

    Default

    As far as temperment, we've been nothing short of thrilled with our Formula One baby. Photos are on my website.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct. 23, 2002
    Location
    Down Under!!!
    Posts
    1,275

    Default

    I will be breeding Jumbo via frozen to my Mokhieba mare this spring, but I lucked out and bought the last two doses available in the US, so there is no more . The Formula One babies we have here are very well behaved and sweet too!



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb. 4, 2001
    Location
    Sheridan, IN
    Posts
    3,437

    Default

    I bred to Jumbo, but my mare did not take on 3 inseminations. I have decided to go with fresh semen for her.

    I bred another Tb mare (has done jumpers, a half star, etc) to ISH Kilkelly's Alls Well for a 2010 baby.

    If I had a Tb upper level mare I'd be looking to produce a full TB or 3/4 to 7/8 blood offspring, and look for a stallion that is very similar in phenotype and success but has physical strengths where the mare could use help. And I would only breed to horses that have produced good minded offspring, or are from a good minded family.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2009
    Location
    UGA
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by secretariat View Post
    Sounds familiar! We bred Megan's 16'2" Intermediate mare to Windfall, and the match was perfect. He added trot, trainability, and good sense to Hailey's tremendous gallop and scope, resulting in a (now) 5-year old Anglo-Trakehner stallion, Nightfall... As Jo Whitehouse said at a Rolex breeding symposium a couple of years ago, "Nightfall is a carbon copy of his sire Windfall."
    I will put my vote in for Windfall!
    I have a Windfoal and I could not ask for a better mare. I got her when she was a late 3yo, me moving up from a packer QH. Probably not ideal, but it has worked great. My Windfoal has a great brain, easy to train, killer jump, great walk, super trot, above average canter, huge gallop, and the BEST personality! Not at all the "hot Trakehner" sterotype. I would ride her around bareback when she was a 3yo and she would be perfect. Everyone who meets her falls in love with her. She is the sweetest thing. All the other Windfoals I have met are the same. Plus Windfall's owners, the Holekamps, are some of the nicest people I have met. Can't go wrong with Windfall!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 27, 1999
    Location
    Midland, NC, USA
    Posts
    7,240

    Default

    I have one Intermediate mare bred to Formula One, and another planned in the spring.

    Jennifer



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 14, 2007
    Location
    Sultan WA
    Posts
    885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HunterEventer View Post
    There is an Irish Draught Stallion that stands in Texas whose kids are just entering the "riding" world. One of them has been in the USEA mag for FEI a few times. He's unflappable and so are his kids. Great conformation. His name is Braveheart. I'd breed to him in a heart beat!!! It's a name that is an up and comer!

    I second the vote for Braveheart RID. We have TWO rising threes sired by him, and both are super, super youngsters, from pretty hot-stuff TB mares. You can take a peek at them on our website - names are Warrior's Marque and American Lace.

    BH himself is evented by his amateur lady owner, and he's never worn a shoe - nice guy all around and is what a good Irish horse should be. He does not throw a lot of height, the mare needs that if it's what you want, but that's not a big deal for many!
    Homesick Angels Farm
    breeders of quality Irish Draught Sporthorses
    standing Manu Forti's Touch Down RID
    www.IrishHuntersandJumpers.com



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2000
    Location
    Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
    Posts
    18,460

    Default

    You could consider Lauries Crusador just to add to the dressage phase.

    He has had several eventing offspring.
    1 started a Luhmuhlen this year in the 4* and came 5th in the 3* last year.

    Another one finished 11th at the Adelaide 4* last year and has also pretty consistently finished in the top ten in Australian 3*s.

    Another one is an International horse at 1 and 2*, mostly CICs.
    One was on the Dutch team for Young Riders at the Euro Championships in 2005 and has made it up to 3* level.

    A 2002 Lauries Crusador finished 7th at Le Lion this year, and has
    finished 4th at a CIC 2* in 2009.

    There's a 2001 Stallion who is eventing at the 1* level, and a couple of more geldings who are at that level.

    He was also the damsire of a 2001 horse named Major Schiller who was ridden by Beeke Kaack in some 1*s.

    Lauries Crusador certainly has the TB pedigree to be an event horse, and some of his younger ones are making their mark in Germany.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr. 4, 2006
    Location
    An American Living In Ireland
    Posts
    5,658

    Default

    Well, I am in the process of trying to get back to the States with a few horses in tow. It will have to be next year so I am actually considering sending my black type TB mare from a very strong dam line to Master Imp and pray and hope she gets back home with baby still inside! The mare herself is a stunning mover. If not the Imp then I will go to Watermill Swatch. I think Twilight would have an amazing full TB bred for sport.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2001
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    4,367

    Default

    I like to breed to a stallion I have seen myself. OF course, if I had all the money in the world, I could travel to see anyone I wanted! That would be fun
    I have seen Formula One a few times and he would be at the top of my list.
    But Denny also has a mare by Beaulieu’s Coolman that is extremely drool worthy. I don't know anything about him, like if he is still available, but that mare is a dream.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    12,579

    Default

    Well this guy isn't as proven yet but I find him very interesting. He is mostly TB which I think is what you want for an UL horse. I know several who have bred to him for next year. He is currently high on my list for my mare's next breeding if all goes well with her current foal.

    http://www.agenturserver.org/kempkeh...gste_magic.htm

    But a lot would depend on your mare...how tall, what are her TB lines. His TB lines should nick well with my mare's lines (no line breeding and good crosses).
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2009
    Location
    Aiken, SC
    Posts
    414

    Default

    he isnt a eventing stallion, but he has a great personality, and an INCREDIBLY nice back, a couple of my friends are breeding to him this spring for this... Redwine. He is out in CA and does the hunters, has an amazing jump and great gaits, but i think the biggest thing for your mare is to make sure you find something nice and shortly coupled to help with her little conformation faults.

    good luck!
    http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...7/PIC_0491.jpg
    Live, Cherish, and Enjoy every moment.



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