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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2006
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    Dallas, TX
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    519

    Default Grumpy, grumpy..................

    My horse has been grumpy for a while during warm-up. Has known SI and hock soreness problems and had been doing Chiro, legend, and adequan.

    We took him to a vet clinic last friday morning and the Dr. said "oh, yes....he's very sore in his right SI". Hocks wern't so bad, but he said just to make sure we help him we injected his SI and hocks.

    He was in his stall for 24 hours, then hand walked and then hacked this week. Well, he's still grumpy in his warm-up, but after riding the trot for a while long and loose and not asking him to bend, he eventually warms up, canter's nice and bends and canters nicely, blowing out his nose, even nice canter.

    I have done cavaletti's and poles.

    My question is..........does it take longer for a week to feel better. Or, do you think he felt so crummy for so long, he's just going to grumpy until he learns that he feels better?

    Am I expecting too much too soon?

    He's showing next Thurs. and Friday. I haven't jumped him, but he knows his job.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 1999
    Posts
    1,682

    Default

    I've heard for hock injections at least, it takes about 2 weeks to see the effects. Not sure about SI injections. In general though, a week is too soon to see the full effects.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts, USA
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    3,503

    Default

    The more you allow the horse to move the better he will be. Stalling for extended periods of time causes more stiffness and discomfort than allowing him out 24/7, if possible.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2005
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallasgreenie View Post
    My horse has been grumpy for a while during warm-up. Has known SI and hock soreness problems and had been doing Chiro, legend, and adequan.

    We took him to a vet clinic last friday morning and the Dr. said "oh, yes....he's very sore in his right SI". Hocks wern't so bad, but he said just to make sure we help him we injected his SI and hocks.

    He was in his stall for 24 hours, then hand walked and then hacked this week. Well, he's still grumpy in his warm-up, but after riding the trot for a while long and loose and not asking him to bend, he eventually warms up, canter's nice and bends and canters nicely, blowing out his nose, even nice canter.

    I have done cavaletti's and poles.

    My question is..........does it take longer for a week to feel better. Or, do you think he felt so crummy for so long, he's just going to grumpy until he learns that he feels better?

    Am I expecting too much too soon?

    He's showing next Thurs. and Friday. I haven't jumped him, but he knows his job.

    It takes about 10 days for full effect of the injections. And if your horse is sore in his SI he probably has been protecting that area for quite some time. So he probably doesn't have a lot of muscle in that area. A progressive strengthening program of strategic flatwork, caveletti, and hills will make him stronger in that area in time.

    For now, you can try cantering early on in your warm up, since canter is the best gait for warming up the horses back.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2006
    Location
    Franklin, TN
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    737

    Default

    A dear freind has a 13 year old WB x mare that does the jumpers, and she'd had stifles done a week before I came to visit...she asked me to watch her carefully ehile the walked, trotted and cantered, and indeed, a week into the process, the mare was still short behind...
    She called her vet to take a look again, and he told her to wait a week longer...lo and behold, about 15 days into the injection, the mare improved as desired. So give it a little time, keep moving, but lightly.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2001
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    16,261

    Default

    Depends on what you used.

    Depo-Medrol? Up to 10 days/two weeks
    Triamcinolone? 3-4 days
    HA/Adequan? Perhaps a week

    Also, if he's been in pain for a long time, he might have wind-up pain. Don't know if that will go away without treatment. I've found gabapentin very useful for wind-up pain.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2006
    Location
    Dallas, TX
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    519

    Default

    Thanks for the replys. Today is day 9, and I was going to give him off, but it's raining cats and dogs in Dallas, so I'm going to hack and work on poles and cavaletti's again today to get him out of his stall.

    I'm always reminded of muscle memory and think that he may think that he's going to hurt, and I thought about giving him bute. But, decided not to and save bute for when he REALLY needs it.

    He's leaving for a show on Wed. and when he goes to shows, he is very rarely grumpy.

    I hope and pray that soon he feels good. He's had some sort of little pain for so long. I know he's grumpy in the beginning, but after he's such a good boy, and I love him dearly.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Default

    Depending on what is going on in those joints, you may or not see pain relief to the extent you want.

    If he has some impingment from spurs, injecting is not going to change that much.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Deep South
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    Default

    I would be more worried about the underlying problems that will still be there when the injections are no longer effective.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 12, 2005
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    Charlotte, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Equibrit View Post
    I would be more worried about the underlying problems that will still be there when the injections are no longer effective.

    Most likely they will as arthritis in the SI joint is common. But what's your point? The SI joint, unlike other joints, has very little movement. And what's best for horses with SI pain is to take away their pain, and put them on a progressive strengthening program to get that area STRONG. When the muscles in that area are strong, the horse is at his most comfortable.

    The alternative, resting the horse, is not reccommended for SI issues. As the area becomes weaker, it hurts even more when it's used.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson View Post
    Most likely they will as arthritis in the SI joint is common. But what's your point? The SI joint, unlike other joints, has very little movement. And what's best for horses with SI pain is to take away their pain, and put them on a progressive strengthening program to get that area STRONG. When the muscles in that area are strong, the horse is at his most comfortable.

    The alternative, resting the horse, is not reccommended for SI issues. As the area becomes weaker, it hurts even more when it's used.
    I think he has more problems than SI only, like hocks and who knows what else.



  12. #12
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    Sep. 12, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I think he has more problems than SI only, like hocks and who knows what else.

    The OP said that his hocks weren't so bad, but they injected them anyway. And that's probably a good thing, as hocks tend to take a beating when the SI is sore. You have to break the cycle of pain before you can get the horse to use his body more fully, to build up muscle around the SI.

    Joint injections are quite safe, and the newer steriods are actually joint productive. I can't figure out why some people seem to be stuck in the dark ages with their stigma against them.



  13. #13
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    Sep. 13, 2006
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    Dallas, TX
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    My horse has never been lame one day in his life! He just has issues that I have been trying so hard to address for years.

    He has good days, weeks, months, but when you have chronic issues, they are always there in the background.

    My horse is always worked to keep his muscles tight in the SI area, and he has the chiro about every three weeks with accupuncture. He has been givin Legend and adequan monthly, theraputic shoes and supplements. So, no lack of care or concern has been taken on my part.

    I'm going to the stable now to hack, and I'm going to go ahead and give him 2 clicks of bute today and see how his attitude is tomorrow.

    He is awesome after warm-up, bending blowing out when he canters, quiet and happy.

    It's just when I do the first slight bend at the trot that he stops.....fights me, turns his head to bite my foot, etc. After he looses his battle, he's fine.

    I was really hoping that if I injected his SI and hocks and he felt better, he may stop the fight.

    He's a 9 year old TB, big, WB type 16.3 with tons of muscle. You can see his profile picture. He just had a crappy farrier for a few years and low heal syndrome with effected his hocks and then Sacrum.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Default

    I agree that your horse may have some underlying, progressive OA in those joints (and maybe others). As other posters have said, so what?

    For now-- post injection and with a horse that does get happy once warmed up, I'd simply modify my warm up to suit him. If you took care of the problem with these injections, he'll feel better and/or forget to worry about potential pain. He'll also get more fit, actually alleviating some of it.

    You might try:

    Walking for a real 10 minutes (which will seem like a long time) before picking up a trot on the buckle. Then let him cruise around with no input about how to use his body.

    Or walk and canter first.

    Or walk and do whatever warm up you like outside where he has other things to think about.

    Since your horse is a good boy, and has had some constant pain in the past, you need to really change his program. Make sure he doesn't have to manage your demands for a frame or bending or whatever, and his un-warmed up body at the same time. He probably doesn't worry about either one too much, but when put together he make feel trapped in a little internal conflict of interest. Plan a warm up that lets him off the hook for protecting his body and pleasing his rider.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  15. #15
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    Sep. 12, 2005
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    Charlotte, NC
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallasgreenie View Post
    My horse is always worked to keep his muscles tight in the SI area

    You may think so, but if your horse is sore in the SI you can bet he has been protecting that area for quite a while. A horse can be very fit and strong with lots of muscle, but if their SI hurts they move differently trying to spare that area. Which means the muscles in the SI area don't get used as much, and therefore get weaker.



  16. #16
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    Sep. 12, 2005
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Plan a warm up that lets him off the hook for protecting his body and pleasing his rider.

    This is a great way to look at it.



  17. #17
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    Sep. 13, 2006
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    Dallas, TX
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    Default

    We don't put him in a frame and work on dressage any longer. We don't do inside turns, or alot of gymnastics, things that are hard on his hocks and sacrum.

    That's why I"m doing long and loose and just letting him stretch, during his warm up. I also do big loopie circles and nothing tight.

    He was much better today. Only a small fuss, so since he stopped and didn't want to go forward, I just backed him for about 10 steps, and then he jumped into the canter and was a good boy.

    I jumped a few 2.3" jumps and then on a few diagonals I did a simple lead change.

    Then he was moving so nice and happy I did a tiny 2.3 course and he did his lead changes and was beautiful.

    I'm going to do a light hack tomorrow and then jump him on Tues. to see how he goes. If he still seems uncomfortable, I won't take him to the show on Wed.

    Tomorrow will be 10 days, so maybe tomorrow will be his lucky day!



  18. #18
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dallasgreenie View Post
    Only a small fuss, so since he stopped and didn't want to go forward, I just backed him for about 10 steps, and then he jumped into the canter and was a good boy.
    honest question: why are you punishing your horse for telling you he is hurting and cant do what you are asking of him?



  19. #19
    BeWitched2 Guest

    Lightbulb Have you considered EPSM?

    I had the same problems! Nothing worked..... After tons of test, meds, stall rest, etc, we finally figured out what it was.
    Turned out my warmblood had EPSM. Had to switch diet to high fat, low starch, daily exercise.



  20. #20
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    honest question: why are you punishing your horse for telling you he is hurting and cant do what you are asking of him?
    I had the same question, but let me put it a different way.

    Do you realize that backing up and the walk-canter transition (or halt-canter) transition involve some "power lifting" for the glutes? Those link the hocks and SI joint, perhaps putting a huge amount of strain on the weakest part of your horse-- and the ones you just spent lots of money fixing.

    You might want to do a couple of things differently. First, do lots of long and low work, on big circles as you have done. Assume your horse's butt and back are weak and need some gentle toning before you go to power lifting. Second, you might ask your vet about trying some Robaxin with your injections. Robaxin is a muscle relaxant that can help break a cycle of pain and tension.

    Best of luck to you both.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



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