[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

What age/months do you start worming & with what? What age/months do you start vaccinating & with what? I've talked to so many people lately that all seem to have varying ideas on these issues. Just curious what others are doing.
Thanks!

[okggo]

http://www.monocacyequine.com/images...vaxdew_sch.pdf

This is my vets schedule. Of course there have been some major disagreements on this forum re the rabies aspect.

[JB]

okggo, I have a question for you, which maybe you can discuss with your vet, after looking at this protocol your vet uses.

Is your vet aware of the resistance issues with pyrantel pamoate and fenbendazole (ie Strongid paste and Safeguard/Panacur, respectively)? And is she aware of the ascarid resistance to ivermectin?

I ask because of the Panacur rotation for the adult horses, and the presumably single-dose usage of both Panacur and Strongid in the foal's rotation.

In single doses, they are not valid chemicals anymore - too much resistance.

However, for ascarids in foals, double-dosing either of those are the way to go. There is enough resistance to ivermectin that it shouldn't be relied on anymore for ascarid control.

[Fairview Horse Center]

http://www.aaep.org/vaccination_guidelines.htm

[Fairview Horse Center]

Is your vet aware of the resistance issues with pyrantel pamoate and fenbendazole (ie Strongid paste and Safeguard/Panacur, respectively)? And is she aware of the ascarid resistance to ivermectin?.

Wormer resistance is now a large problem. I definitely would not be comfortable with only using single strongid and Panacur for 6 months. I would also not be comfortable using DOUBLE doses without TESTING to see if it is working

When I got a foal from Cornell, they began to deworm her with Ivermectin before she was 1 month old. This was back in 1992. It is very safe for foals.

Test your property to see what drugs are working on the worm population on YOUR farm. Without knowing that, you are wasting huge amounts of money, and may (probably) just squirt it in the trash can.

[JB]

Fairview, double-dosing fenbendazole IS the recommended, now, protocol for ascarids in foals It's a really, really safe chemical ( same goes for pyrantel pamoate

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w4735737x1167860/

84% reduction in ascarid eggs with 10mg/kg fen, vs 0% reduction with ivermectin.

Interestingly, I didn't know of the effectiveness of oxibendazole against ascarids - 10mg/kg (which is the therapeutic dosage) gave a 94% reduction in ascarids.

Pyrantel was tested at a 2x dose with a 23% reduction in ascarids.

Granted, that was 1 farm. I don't know what an average is across multiple farm studies.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Fairview, double-dosing fenbendazole IS the recommended, now, protocol for ascarids in foals It's a really, really safe chemical ( same goes for pyrantel pamoate

I am not questiioning its safeness, but its effectiveness. There is a lot of KNOWN resistance to single dose. Without testing it on YOUR property, there is no way of knowing if double, or even triple dosing is effective.

Don't waste your money, and put your animals at risk. DO fecal tests on each product every year so you can KNOW if it worked to reduce the number by ? percent. You don't have to do repeat fecals on your entire herd. Just do a couple (choose ones with the highest count from before deworming) 14 days after deworming with an amount of a product (1x, 2x, etc) to see if it works for YOUR worm population.

[JB]

I pointed to a study that proved its effectiveness in a double dose.
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=966

All target parasites except P. equorum are susceptible to fenbendazole at 5 mg/kg, but a higher dosage (10 mg/kg) is needed to kill ascarids.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=1621

Ascarids--Start treatments with pyrantel pamoate (a.k.a. Strongid) or benzimidazole paste (fenbendazole, oxfendazole, or oxibendazole; all 10 mg/kg) at 60 days of age.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...aae557824a4269 this one shows that ivermectin was effective on ascarids at 2/5 farms in Italy, and pyrantel pamoate fully effective on all 5 farms.

Of course, if you want to know how an individual farm fares, you have to do before and after FECs to determine the reduction. Your individual farm may not have a resistance to ivermectin for ascarids.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I pointed to a study that proved its effectiveness in a double dose.

Yes, and that is the way we use to think about worms - let others do studies on their horses/farms and report. We USED to believe those reports were valid for all. The recent new thinking has been a real "DUH" to me. Worm populations are different. We can no longer trust that the writers of articles are saying anything valid about worms on OUR farms.

We have to understand that we need to do more fecals, both to evaluate effectiveness of products and doses, AND to know the general natural immunity of each horse to worms.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Not to hijack, but on a related note--I bring up the resistance I keep hearing about to my vet (specifically in reference to daily wormer) and she says that she is in contact with so and so (someone on the national level who studies this issue) and in our area--upper midwest--we do not have resistance issues to speak of and that isn't a concern.

So confusing.

[stoicfish]

I can not find Strongid locally. Panacur is suppose to be effective against strongyles, so just wondering why the rotation? Is it to reduce the chance of resistance?

[JB]

Panacur (pyrantel pamoate) has a wide-spread high resistance issue with strongyles.

TrotTrot, do you know what the "don't have a resistance issue" is based on? The DW, which is pyrantel tartrate, a very close relative of pyrantel pamoate, has a growing resistance issue. Not nearly as widespread as other chemicals though, not by a longshot. But it's probably coming.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Panacur (pyrantel pamoate) has a wide-spread high resistance issue with strongyles.

I'm thinking you meant to say Panacur AND pyrantel pamoate.

[JB]

LOL, yes, indeed, I did, thanks for catching that

Panacur = fenbendazole
Strongid = pyrantel pamoate

BOTH have resistance issues with strongyles and one should assume their horses have resistant parasites unless and until a FEC proves they do not.

[okggo]

JB, I cannot answer that question - I can ask. My guess is they just haven't updated it in forever.

Question - is there an OTC worm/fecal test? I try to avoid vet calls unless absolutely necessary - if I started doing regular fecals to check effectiveness through them, ugh (sorry $70 barn call is not something I do unless I have to).

[TrueColours]

I faithfully and I mean FAITHFULLY muck out my paddocks each day. Twice a day if they are out for the night as well, so their exposure to any manure piles is extremely limited and short lived at best

I do it for esthetic as well as any possible health reasons and benefits

I have asked everyone I can think to ask if by doing so, I am eliminating any possible worm infestation by 50%? 20%? 10%? At all??? And no one seems to have a clue.

Do I need to worm as often or less by doing so? Again - no one will even offer up an answer to this question

In the end, I will continue to do so for the esthetic reasons and for the reduction in flies around the horses but does anyone here have a clue if there is actually any benefit at all as far as reducing worm infestation within the horses themselves???

[JB]

Absolutely you reduce the risk. The less manure there is, for the least amount of time, the less chance there can be for a horse to pick up a parasite.

But the *only* way to know if your program is working - picking up manure, combined with whatever deworming you do - is to do regular FECs.

"regular" might mean every 4 months the first year, but just once a year after that.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Question - is there an OTC worm/fecal test? I try to avoid vet calls unless absolutely necessary - if I started doing regular fecals to check effectiveness through them, ugh (sorry $70 barn call is not something I do unless I have to).

Just around the corner from you! Fecals ($10) (jfyi, they also do inexpensive necropsies)

Frederick Animal Health Diagnostic Lab
1840 Rosemont Ave.
Frederick, MD 21702
301-600-1548

You just need to collect a reasonably fresh fecal ball (I use an inside out sandwhich baggie as a glove, then flip it back right to seal) and drop them off.

[okggo]

Just around the corner from you! Fecals ($10) (jfyi, they also do inexpensive necropsies)

Frederick Animal Health Diagnostic Lab
1840 Rosemont Ave.
Frederick, MD 21702
301-600-1548

FV - that is twice in one day you have answered me 100%! Double thank you!

[Fairview Horse Center]

You are quite welcome!

(I am delaying trying to get all of my phone numbers on my new cell phone)