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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    In the UK there are age classes for young eventers and the results and the breeding are collated. Jaguar Mail does not appear on those lists for 2008. All I'm saying is that I want to wait longer before deciding whether JM is going to be a good event sire. He's had plenty of foals and to see none of them coming through in the 4,5 or 6yo classes makes me wonder.

    I agree that he needs more time. As for the 4, 5 and 6 year classes....I'm not all that surprised none are competing. If they are big and a bit slower to mature....I wouldn't be bothering with those classes either. Here in the States we have those classes as well....and some of the nicest young stock isn't mature enough for those classes and don't compete in those classes....doesn't mean that they will not be top horses in time. A very limited few of the winners in those classes have gone on to be top horses themselves.....although I do still support that sort of class and some very nice horses do well in them. But those classes are just a judge's idea of what will be a top prospect....you really don't know what will be an UL event horse until they are competing at the UL. It's part of what makes this sport fun!
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  2. #82
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    Default stallions

    For a last min stallion, Lordfurst, Landsong, or Lancaster, they are all realated and can produce eventers, esp with a tb.
    Home of Five Kings HsH (Eurocommerce Berlin x Diamant de Semilly x Quidam de Revel) and several top bred mares www.hshorses.com



  3. #83
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    Denny also says he wouldn't aim his horses at UL eventing in today's climate. Of course, he might have just been disgusted by something when he said that.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  4. #84
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    Denny may also be aiming at producing youngsters and selling them on. Many eventers have said that they think that warmbloods will do very well at lower levels in eventing and be sought after by amateurs. But for the top levels you still need a horse who is mostly TB.



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Because the youngstock in question have the qualities that would make them good event horses and producers of quality 21st century event horses. Denny knows what he's doing.
    My comment is not about whether Denny knows what he is doing, my comment is relative your comment about showjumping talent. The Fermbeaulieu bloodlines and stallions are known for their outrageous jump and kick back, and for their good movement - not for efficient effort - though obviously there will be a range there, genetics being genetics.

    Denny said on another thread that he thought that pure jumping talent was going to be very important for future short format horses (granted this is from a mid-2007 thread, so possibly he has changed his opinion since then, but I remembered the comment well enough to find it again, at the end of this post about Quidam de Revel):

    Quote Originally Posted by denny View Post
    In terms of adding raw jumping ability to the event horse mix, it`s interesting to note that 2 days ago Beezie Madden and Authentic won the Grand Prix of Aachen, which to a show jumper is like one of us winning Badminton.

    Authentic is a grandson of Quidam de Revel, and Beaulieu`s Coolman, the stallion discussed earlier here,(which started this long thread) is a son of Quidam de Revel.

    In the 2006 WBFSH rankings of 2335 grand prix jumpers, Authentic was ranked second, and another Quidam de Revel offspring, Quibell, was ranked 3rd.

    I suspect that sheer, raw jumping talent will be increasingly critical in the event horse of the future if this new short format continues, and I don`t really see how to stop that trend.
    I'm not not not picking a fight, just trying to balance/integrate your comments with other comments I've heard - namely Denny's - to generate some discussion on what we should be breeding for. There is a continuum - but where on the continuum do breeder's aim? Efficient all-around athlete or uber-talent? Classic eventer breeding or something else entirely? I don't think there is a lot of agreement right now and maybe there won't be until the current crop of speculatively bred youngstock hit the circuit.
    Liz
    Lionwood Irish Draught Horses
    irishdraught.co



  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    Denny may also be aiming at producing youngsters and selling them on. Many eventers have said that they think that warmbloods will do very well at lower levels in eventing and be sought after by amateurs. But for the top levels you still need a horse who is mostly TB.

    Again though.....there is already a lot of TB blood in most warmblood stallions and there are quite a few very successful warmblood/tb crosses doing very well at the ULs today (the gold medal winner from Hong Kong is one). How do you define warmblood? A cross of a modern WB with a TB is not the same thing as what people thought of with the old clunky warmbloods 15 years ago.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  7. #87
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    Marius is 1/2 TB with a Holsteiner brand on his butt. Is he a WB or a TBx? Wasn't there a story that his dam was bred to the TB sire, Condrieu, for an F1 in the hopes that she would produce a filly for the F2 breeding shed; only she produced Marius instead, and he went on to gold?
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  8. #88
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    If the rules are not altered again (!!!) then the **** events that have taken place since the rules were (blatantly) altered to favour the warmblood have shown that the TB is still filling the top places at top events like Badminton and Burghley and Rolex.

    The eventing at the Olympics is probably the only Olympic event where the standard is not the highest in the world. The Olympic XC course is deliberately made less difficult than the **** events to allow competitors from lesser known eventing countries to get around safely.



  9. #89
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    Vineridge I've had a look at Marius' pedigree and he looks to be by a TB stallion out of a Holstein mare with Ladykiller 4 generations back.

    Your question is what I was referring to a couple of pages ago in this thread. The warmblood books are inclusive and a horse that may well be 3/4 TB will still be labelled a warmblood. The xx to denote a TB is not always easy to find. But surely the fact that the most recent winner of the Olympics is over 50% TB just emphasises the point that eventing is a game for TBs?



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    If the rules are not altered again (!!!) then the **** events that have taken place since the rules were (blatantly) altered to favour the warmblood have shown that the TB is still filling the top places at top events like Badminton and Burghley and Rolex.

    The eventing at the Olympics is probably the only Olympic event where the standard is not the highest in the world. The Olympic XC course is deliberately made less difficult than the **** events to allow competitors from lesser known eventing countries to get around safely.

    Winner at Rolex wasn't a full TB....neither was the 2nd or third place horse.....


    Look, I love the TBs just like every one else.....but I also recognize that there are a LOT of horses not full TBs who can do very well....and there have always been a lot of not full TBs who have done well in eventing. No, you don't want a supper heavy clunker who moves up and down....but there a lot of cross breeds out there who can gallop as well...if not better than some full TBs (especially the TBs bred to sprint).


    My point was that I agree that you DO need a lot of TB blood...but a lot of the modern "warmbloods" do have that even if they have a brand on their butt...so crossing them to a full TB mare is going to get you pleanty of blood (at least on paper) for the ULs.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    If the rules are not altered again (!!!) then the **** events that have taken place since the rules were (blatantly) altered to favour the warmblood have shown that the TB is still filling the top places at top events like Badminton and Burghley and Rolex.

    The eventing at the Olympics is probably the only Olympic event where the standard is not the highest in the world. The Olympic XC course is deliberately made less difficult than the **** events to allow competitors from lesser known eventing countries to get around safely.
    The rules are being altered again. Burghley is shortening its XC course this fall to about 6000m. That's not even 3 miles. !! Same number of jumping efforts, though. IIRC, about 145.
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  12. #92
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    Default Hanos

    I think the Hanoverian (E, G, and A lines) crossed with TB make very nice eventers.
    Home of Five Kings HsH (Eurocommerce Berlin x Diamant de Semilly x Quidam de Revel) and several top bred mares www.hshorses.com



  13. #93
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    That's outrageous! Why is nothing being done to stop it? Have the European registries got that much influence with the FEI? If they are not careful eventing will be reduced to little more than combined training.



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    That's outrageous! Why is nothing being done to stop it? Have the European registries got that much influence with the FEI? If they are not careful eventing will be reduced to little more than combined training.
    http://www.eventingnews.com/stories....0At%20Burghley

    It looks as if the number of jumps will also be reduced to "accommodate the shortened track", as the number is will still be one every 145 meters. According to the story at Eventing New.com, since so many horse poop out about the ten minute mark, they are shortening the course to make them look "more attractive" at the end.

    Read this topic on the Eventing Board. It will curl your hair.
    http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/sho...d.php?t=205527

    Eventing needs to push Mark Phillips upstairs somewhere where he cannot do any more damage.
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  15. #95
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    I'm saddened and disgusted. And ask again how is this being allowed to happen with no uproar from the competitors or the breeders? Oh but that would be the Irish and UK breeders (Irish studbook 1st in the world for eventing, SHB(GB) second in the world for eventing) and they don't have a voice in the FEI do they?

    So the future of eventing is fancy dressage horses who can jump a bit. What a travesty! I guess there will be no surprise if warmbloods take over in eventing too once the rules have been altered so the XC has no influence on the outcome and getting a good dressage score is everything.

    Can you imagine what would happen if the UK and Ireland got the rules changed for dressage so it favoured TBs? You must do 10 miles of roads and tracks in extended trot before entering the arena at A. What is being done to eventing is similar. I am so upset.



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    According to the story at Eventing New.com, since so many horse poop out about the ten minute mark, they are shortening the course to make them look "more attractive" at the end.
    This is a technique better known as 'moving the goalposts.'




  17. #97
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    And I stupidly thought the new eventing format was linked to making it more intresting for the watcher and cheaper as events could be developed in smaller areas. Express Eventing has just been launched in the UK. It is fast and short all in an arena. This has nothing to do with warmbloods taking over the world but to encourage spectators. The big UK names are supporting the style of Express Eventing. There was a very tragic accident at the first event but it is still being promoted to try and renew intrest in equine sports.
    Equine sport has to justify staying in the olympics and if it is not good to watch it will be out. The dressage marks now get shown on big boards during the test and eventing has moved to a shorter watchable format. People want to see horses jumping x country not doing roads and tracks.
    Not fussed either way about the event format but first time I have heard it being an underhanded method from Europe to take over the world.



  18. #98
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    Juniberry Express Eventing is the ultimate in combined training though isn't it? The only reason it is well supported by riders, who are very rarely on their best horses, is because the prize money is good and they cannot afford not to try to win it. It isn't looked on as being an eventing competition in any way which is why there are also some showjumpers that take part. That is also the reason why the horses that tend to win are not big names in 3 day eventing.

    Last year many people who watched were disappointed and the death of Call Again Cavalier put a huge damper on things. Whether Express Eventing takes off or not is yet to be seen but it is not eventing, it is a completely different form of competition and I hope it remains a sideshow as for me it is nowhere near as exciting as watching one of the big **** events. Badminton annually attracts crowds in excess of 250,000. It is the second biggest spectator sporting event in the world, second only to Nascar. Getting people to come and watch eventing doesn't seem to be the problem. What is the problem is getting it shown on TV and written about in the papers which is essential to attract sponsors.



  19. #99
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    I`ll quote Sam Barr one more time----"It is very hard to breed a foal TODAY who will reach his greatest powers about ten years from now, when we don`t know what the SPORT will be in ten years." That`s not an exact quote, but it`s the correct gist of his comments.

    He has raised foals which have won Badminton, Burghley, and Rolex, all back in the long format days.

    If any of us had tried to recreate Out and About, Kerry Miliken`s Atlanta bronze, and Badminton 3rd place horse, a spectacular galloping machine, if ever there was one, but mildly intolerant of dressage, and capable of flipping the odd rail out of the cup on Sunday----- If, in 1996, we`d used him as our prototype, and we now have a 12 year old just like him, we`d have a GREAT horse, but NOT a winning 2009 short format 4 star horse.

    Because eventing changed right out from under us.

    So breeders have to guess where the sport is heading, and MY guess is toward shorter, maybe even slower, and probably quite technical, with a quite high standard in dressage and show jumping, with not so much need for speed and endurance, more of a very good in all 3 phases horse, not so much the fabulous cross country horse who was pretty good, or at least adequate, in the other two phases.

    That isn`t the sport I signed up for (before many of you were born, in 1962), but it`s the sport I`ve been dealt, and if I`m a savvy breeder, I better try to create what the sport needs and rewards.

    Is my guess right? Check back in a decade!!



  20. #100
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    "Horses for courses, and courses for horses." Whoever controls the courses will control the winners, the future of breeding, and the future of the sport.

    This is exactly what happened to GP jumping, and is happening to dressage with the institution of the freestyle to music.
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