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  1. #41
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  2. #42
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    JER I think we are on the same page about stallions. IMHO you should do your utmost to see the stallion you are going to use and find out as much as you can about what they produce. To choose a stallion just using videos and photos and pedigree is simply not giving yourself enough information to make a decision.

    Regarding Mill Law the reason he's rated is the superb temperament he throws. A possible up and coming stallion is Future Illusion but he is quite small and too young to have a competition or production record.

    Personally if I could afford it I'd use Presenting (after visiting him of course) or Millenary, both ex-racehorses. Presenting is of course the sire of Denman and Millenary is a former winner of the St Leger (grade 1) and retired sound after 7 years racing.



  3. #43
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    I forgot- holsteiner/xx blood --Mighty Magic -unproven I guess but most appealing-by xx sire and another one - Grafenstolz (trak)



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    Horse - Sire (Sire of Sire)


    Muschamp Impala – Muschamp Maestro (TB by Matador)
    Sorry, wrong. Maastro was a full Trakehner by the full Trakehner Matador - no TB upclose anywhere. Now Impala also didn't finish this year....but that's a different story.

    I don't quite the the whole "stay away from WBs" for all "serious" eventing, too many examples to the contrary since even a 50% TB is already NOT a Tb anymore, but becomes a WB per definition, but that's a different discussion.

    Stallions in the US if that is what you see: Windfall ?? 3/4 "blood" should get you a long way. Less known, fab offspring: Tzigane. I don't think I have to explain why many see the Trakehner as the "warmblood" to do the job even at the four star level after all - historically proven and tested for centuries. Just a thought ...



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    JER I think we are on the same page about stallions. IMHO you should do your utmost to see the stallion you are going to use and find out as much as you can about what they produce. To choose a stallion just using videos and photos and pedigree is simply not giving yourself enough information to make a decision.
    Agreed.

    However, I bred my mare to the NZ stallion Heroicity based on photos and videos. but then Heroicity was a TB and my mare is a TB and I was pretty confident about what I'd get -- and I got it.

    If I sound at all testy on this thread it's because of the specificity of the OP's question and the non-specificity of some of the replies. Seriously, on this board there are some stallions that get suggested on every thread for every mare.

    What the OP wanted was a recommendation for a stallion that, when crossed with a TB mare, will be most likely to produce an Advanced eventer. The proof is in the progeny -- are they out there competing at Advanced? Yes or no? Otherwise, it's just speculation and breeding is already way too speculative not to stick to the facts where you find them.

    rant over.



  6. #46
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    JER it sounds like you and I have written chapters for the same book, so to speak. Breeding for a four star eventer is quite a thing. Nice to see you using a NZTB. I never used Heroicty myself -were you pleased with the result?



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    The proof is in the progeny -- are they out there competing at Advanced? Yes or no? Otherwise, it's just speculation and breeding is already way too speculative not to stick to the facts where you find them.

    Yeah, the proof HAS to be in the progeny for event breeding, as there are so few mares who are actually competed, and even fewer stallions. I can't imagine any of the other sport disciplines operating this way in terms of purpose-breeding.



  8. #48
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    Heroicity - I LOVED that stallion. It's been 4 years and I'm still upset he's gone.

    Wasn't there a small amount of frozen available? You might want to talk to SBS in Maryland to see what is possible. 13 is a little old to be trying frozen that is not at all plentiful - but the mare has already produced an upper level eventer....
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  9. #49
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    Thumbs up

    If you can do frozen, summer Song
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerole View Post
    JER it sounds like you and I have written chapters for the same book, so to speak. Breeding for a four star eventer is quite a thing. Nice to see you using a NZTB. I never used Heroicty myself -were you pleased with the result?
    Oh, yes. My 3 year-old Heroicity filly is delightful. This is a video of her in the FEH demonstration at the Rolex event at Kentucky Horse Park. She's been exceptionally level-headed from the day she was born and always has been easy to handle and very, very calm. Her canter and gallop are fantastic. But the thing that really stands out with her is her brain.

    I wanted to breed a full TB from my TB mare (this was her 3rd foal). I liked all the Grey Sovereign blood in Heroicity, the Caro, Busted, etc. And I liked that he was an intimidator on the track and as a teenaged stallion, could hop through a big jump chute like it was nothing. I also like the versatility of his offspring and that they had good temperaments. (My mare has a very old-fashioned pedigree too.)

    I think she'll be a fairly easy ride. Her oldest half-sister, the one by Catherston Dazzler, is loads of fun to hack and jump around but for serious competing, she deserves a rider who is as athletic as she is. The Heroicity filly, I suspect, will be a little more forgiving and less extravagant.




  11. #51
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    JER your Dazzler sounds typical of what he produces, talented but not for amateurs. I hope he fulfils all your hopes and dreams as he gets older. It is interesting that Dazzler was trained as a GP dressage horse and marketed as a dressage sire. It was relatively late in his breeding career that he was "discovered" as an eventing sire and he is unusual in that he has some warmblood in him along with the TB.

    Maren there have been several discussions about breeding eventers on the UK boards and the topic that has come up again and again is how the warmblood event horses were lacking the extra gear needed for the cross country. The lack of gallop on those horses was mentioned many times in the commentary.

    Many of the top riders over here have said publically that they prefer the heart and grit of the pure TB or mostly TB. The concensus is that warmbloods will do well at the lower levels of eventing and are ideal to produce relatively quickly then sell on to the amateur market. But for the top levels of the sport you still need the TB athleticism and grittiness. The only exception is the Irish Draught cross which adds the famous fifth leg and sensible brain and, if you get a good one, doesn't dilute the speed or the stamina.

    Edited to add Trakehners are not your usual warmbloods as they have a much higher % of Tb and Arab blood in them. One of the top event horse producers in the UK for many years was a Trak: Fleetwater Opposition (so called because he was failed at his first grading!!). His stock are notoriously tricky and rear easily but with the right rider they are quick, sound and brave. It's certainly possible that Traks will become a bigger influence in event horse breeding in the future especially as Grafenstolz is now standing in the UK. But IMO the TB will remain the dominant force in event breeding for the forseeable future. A large part of this is because many top event riders pick their young horses from the National Hunt racehorse sales. A failed racehorse often makes a superb eventer or a jumping bred racehorse who has been a "store horse" and allowed time to mature without being in training can be an ideal youngster to buy. With so many to choose from there are always going to be a few good ones. This is what makes breeding for eventing so hard. Eventers are not interested in buying a foal so event breeders have to keep their youngstock until they can show their loose jump or even get them going under saddle. Then the alternative source of eventing youngstock is the jump bred racehorses and there are many hundreds of those that can often be bought for reasonable prices at the racing auctions as the qualities of an eventer are different from the qualities of a racehorse so the youngsters the event riders are intersted in do not have their prices pushed up by getting into bidding wars with the racehorse owners.

    I think your comment about a horse being a warmblood once it has been accepted into the studbook encapsulates the difference in attitude to breeding in the UK and Ireland compared to the rest of Europe. The rest of Europe has what I'll call "inclusive" stud books so as soon as a mare or stallion passes their grading they are referred to as a Hanovarian or a Westfalien or a Brandenburg etc. Over here that rarely happens and horses are referred to as part bred TB or 3/4 TB etc. The original breeds of the parents are referred to rather than the studbook the mare and stallion are accepted into. It does make working out the type of horse easier but does nothing at all to promote UK and Irish breeding!
    Last edited by stolensilver; May. 20, 2009 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Edited to add extra bits.



  12. #52
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    Default Cevin Z William Funnells stallion

    It has already been suggested another of Williams rides. Have a look at Cevin too. His first USA foal was out of an advanced eventing TB.
    I know his progeny and they are all very good, foals fetch good money, young horses win classes. Enough trot to improve most TB dressage.
    As a bit of background a very good friend was working for Cevin's owner. William has had him as a ride and for stud since a young horse. Following the sudden and untimely death of Cevin's owner he is currently being transfered in to William's ownership.

    Cevin's owner had several years enjoying watching Cevin and his youngstock compete. She knew a good horse when she saw one.
    There is also amazing proof that he crosses well with TB's.

    http://www.emcostallionservices.com/...ns/cevinz.html

    IMHO a modern warmblood crossed with a full TB will be equally quick XC as an ID cross TB. Obviously this depends on the stallion. A lot of warmbloods have at least 1/4 TB blood. So crossed on to a TB potentially that would be 5/8 TB. That being said I am a converted Eventer to Dressage so may be I am biased



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    I think your comment about a horse being a warmblood once it has been accepted into the studbook encapsulates the difference in attitude to breeding in the UK and Ireland compared to the rest of Europe. The rest of Europe has what I'll call "inclusive" stud books so as soon as a mare or stallion passes their grading they are referred to as a Hanovarian or a Westfalien or a Brandenburg etc. Over here that rarely happens and horses are referred to as part bred TB or 3/4 TB etc. The original breeds of the parents are referred to rather than the studbook the mare and stallion are accepted into. It does make working out the type of horse easier but does nothing at all to promote UK and Irish breeding!
    I don't know of any German WB studbook that does what you say. A TB stallion or mare approved for breeding by the WB studbook is still always referred to as a TB. It does not magically become a Hanoverian, or Oldenburg, or whatever, just because it has been approved for breeding. Same thing goes for a Trakehner, or Hanoverian, etc., approved by another WB studbook - it is STILL a Trakehner or Hanoverian, etc. Now, its FOALS can be eligible for registration in the WB studbook, if from parents approved for breeding by that studbook. I cannot imagine any serious German WB breeder who does not understand that concept.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post

    What the OP wanted was a recommendation for a stallion that, when crossed with a TB mare, will be most likely to produce an Advanced eventer. The proof is in the progeny -- are they out there competing at Advanced? Yes or no? Otherwise, it's just speculation and breeding is already way too speculative not to stick to the facts where you find them.

    In answer to this question, A Fine Romance has one full TB son who competed at Advanced, and this son is now a winning Grand Prix Jumper - one of the few full TBs competing in that division.
    One of Allison Springer's best young horses is also a full TB by A Fine Romance, A Jack of Hearts - Allison refers to his talent as 'limitless' and has hopes for him as her next big horse.
    Selena O'Hanlon also has a full TB youngster who she hopes will be her next Olympic horse, named A First Romance. She calls him "the best horse she has ever ridden cross-country".
    All of these youngsters were out of OTTB mares.

    and they do well in the dressage
    A FINE ROMANCE - JC Reg Thoroughbred - GOLD Premium CSHA - ISR/OLDNA Approved
    CSHA Brickenden Stallion Award Winner - for Performance offspring.
    Please visit A Fine Romance on FB!



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Oh, yes. My 3 year-old Heroicity filly is delightful. This is a video of her in the FEH demonstration at the Rolex event at Kentucky Horse Park. She's been exceptionally level-headed from the day she was born and always has been easy to handle and very, very calm. Her canter and gallop are fantastic. But the thing that really stands out with her is her brain.

    I wanted to breed a full TB from my TB mare (this was her 3rd foal). I liked all the Grey Sovereign blood in Heroicity, the Caro, Busted, etc. And I liked that he was an intimidator on the track and as a teenaged stallion, could hop through a big jump chute like it was nothing. I also like the versatility of his offspring and that they had good temperaments. (My mare has a very old-fashioned pedigree too.)

    I think she'll be a fairly easy ride. Her oldest half-sister, the one by Catherston Dazzler, is loads of fun to hack and jump around but for serious competing, she deserves a rider who is as athletic as she is. The Heroicity filly, I suspect, will be a little more forgiving and less extravagant.


    Thanks for the link to your Heroicity daughter. It is wonderful to see him living on through his offspring. Please keep us updated on this very special gal.
    -Elaine



  16. #56
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    Our old stallion Adamant has several eventing very successfully right now. But most everyone on this board thinks an American stallion doesn't hold a candle to something from overseas. One of Adamant's offspring won at the Fair Hill starter trials a couple of weeks ago. Three competed this past weekend very successfully. Sally Cousins is competing mine, and she is, as Sally says, "the real deal."
    I value her opinion a great deal more than most.
    She did win both OI-A and OI-B on Sat., and is annually very high on the USEA leaderboard..
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterwitch View Post
    OT but, Maryanne I am very jealous that you have a full sister to Courageous Comet...pics please!!!

    I'm very jealous too!


    not again, huge congratulations on the success of Adamant's offspring.


    Another horse I love and think the OP should look at is Miner's Lamp. Is there frozen available for him?
    I am reading this thread with interest myself. I have a lovely AFR daughter, a full sister to My Romance/Southbound, who I am *thinking* of breeding before she starts her performance career.
    Catherston Dazzler has always caught my eye as well.
    A FINE ROMANCE - JC Reg Thoroughbred - GOLD Premium CSHA - ISR/OLDNA Approved
    CSHA Brickenden Stallion Award Winner - for Performance offspring.
    Please visit A Fine Romance on FB!



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterwitch View Post
    OT but, Maryanne I am very jealous that you have a full sister to Courageous Comet...pics please!!!
    I don't know how to post photos, but if you e-mail me I will send you some and you can post them.

    minglewoodsporthorses@msn.com
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    JER your Dazzler sounds typical of what he produces, talented but not for amateurs. I hope he fulfils all your hopes and dreams as he gets older. It is interesting that Dazzler was trained as a GP dressage horse and marketed as a dressage sire. It was relatively late in his breeding career that he was "discovered" as an eventing sire and he is unusual in that he has some warmblood in him along with the TB.
    Jennie Loriston-Clarke is a dressage rider, so her stallions eventually focus on that. But they all do showjumping and eventing as well. Dazzler won the young horse competitions in every discipline.

    Dazzler's dam was a Welton-bred mare, who evented to Advanced. She was out of an Irish Grade A showjumper.

    Jennie's great stallion Dutch Courage, sire of CD, was a half-TB (by Millerole, now there's an old pedigree) and 1/4 Gelderlander who failed to earn stallion grading in Holland. (He was very small and plain at 3.)

    So while Dazzler is 1/8 Dutch (Gronigen), he's also 1/8 Gelderlander, 1/8 Irish and 5/8 TB. It's not really modern WB breeding, it's quite close to the old recipe for a 3/4-7/8 TB + a bit of light workhorse. My CD mare is 13/16ths TB.

    On the continent, some race-bred TBs have produced gorgeous eventers out of more modern WB mares. The Czech-bred Heraldik, for example, or the German-bred Lemon or the Polish-bred Stravinsky (a grandson of Blauer Reiter, sire of Lemon). But again, these are known quantities, the stallions had a track record of producing horses that excelled at eventing out of WB mares.

    Eventing sires are usually discovered later in life! Their offspring aren't winning at top level for ten years or so. Often, the stallion is dead before we've even heard of him. The exceptions to this are the ones that start breeding young, like Master Imp (who had never been anything other than a breeding stallion). Catherston Dazzler's very first foal was the CCI**** eventer Broadstone Harvest Moon, who came to the US and won Radnor with Amanda Warrington, was born in 1988 -- when CD was 4. Midnight Dazzler is now 19, which means he was born when CD was 6.

    (Kanga on the board is breeding her young Fleetwater Opposition stallion this year for the first time, I think he's 3. This is important if you're going to promote your stallion to eventers -- get those foals on the ground!)

    But what an event breeder is looking for is the right kind of athleticism. Not a horse that's an 'almost' at straight dressage or showjumping. You need efficient movement (as opposed to knee action), a ground-covering canter and gallop, and a forward, efficient jump. This is different than what you might want for a top GP SJ or dressage horse.



  20. #60
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    Question about the comment concerning warmbloods and eventing. I have no clue about the subject but I followed the Olympics last summer, and for interest looked up some of the pedigrees (was going to breed myself). Out of the top 40 horses there was a lot of Irish Draught crosses, obviously TB’s and TB crosses, but there was also a high number of Holsteiner (especially the Ladykiller x Cor), notable CAVALIER ROYALE occurred many times. In fact out of the top 20 he was the most reoccurring stallion. There was many Anglo Arabs and Selle F. There was two Alberta stallions that had horses (give you there info, if you want). Some of the more interesting ones were Ringwould Jaguar - QH x Tb. And Gandalf was a pinto x Tb. Traks were present in some of the pedigrees within 2 generations. I have also read, when looking at lists of Top 20 Jumping stallions (or dressage) that a list of Top 20 Eventing sires was almost impossible because of the wide range of breeding that you see at the top levels of eventing.
    It seems to me, especially at the top levels, horses are chosen on their individual ability and not concentrating on a breed or registry. The Irish Draught,( http://www.irishdraught.com/aboutsh/ ) seems like a horse that more recently come about from taking there local talented heavy horse and crossing it with a Tb or any other animal with talent (ironically the same thing that most people gasp at when you get into the discussion of Warmblood definition).
    So as your looking for a stallion, is it that easy to dismiss any stallion, just based on breed?
    And moreover it seems that a top level eventing horse it more about the individual horse, and training so what are the chances of any one cross creating that top level horse?
    Not discouraging you personally, breeding is soo exciting and an experience in it’s own.



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