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  1. #1
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    Default the "hunters lay" "duck" "sprawl yourself on it's neck" 2-point

    I read in another topic someone stated they didn't want to sport the 'lay on your horses neck' 2-point whether it's "in style" or not.

    So here's my question, not to that person but to everyone. Is that really in style, or just a common adaptation of the original 2-point. Do trainers actually teach their clients to "lay on their horses necks" or is it just a form of habbit?

    I don't remember any trainer teaching me HOW to look when I two point, and my two point did evolve with time on it's own.
    "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris



  2. #2
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    Mar. 29, 2008
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    Default

    Yeah, some people teach that on purpose. Some just don't correct it. And some people actually *gasp* teach correct form.



  3. #3
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    Jan. 28, 2003
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    Hollywood, but not the one where they have the Oscars!
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    Default

    ditto seven up
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm



  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven-up View Post
    Yeah, some people teach that on purpose. Some just don't correct it. And some people actually *gasp* teach correct form.
    Alright, I'm not here to strike up an argument or fight for the hunters lay because honestly I couldn't care less how the next person wants to ride. But where did we find "correct position" who created it? Who says it's "correct" when people who use the hunters lay are pinning well as are this with what you call "correct position". Where did correct position come from? And who is to say it is the RIGHT WAY.

    I for one teach a proper hip angle, a tight calf and thigh and connection from bit to hand, I think all else follows and falls properly into place as one advances.
    "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris


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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 31, 2004
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    VA
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    Default

    Correct used to be lean back an slip the reins. My trainer teaches me the sprawly thing and while I resisted at first, I find that my horse is jumping better. He's known for his style though. It suprised me to see him in person vs. in photos. No diving at the horse or jumping ahead that I saw.
    -Grace



  6. #6
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    Mar. 12, 2007
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    VA
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    55

    Default

    Well... I've always been an EQ rider, and I've never done the hunter "sprawl."



  7. #7
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    Mar. 29, 2008
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    Default

    They pin in the hunters because they're looking at the horse, not the rider.

    And some hunter trainers (not the eq trainers) teach the duck, sprawl, and stick out the elbows because they think it makes it look like the horse is jumping you right out of the tack. So they do artificial things to the rider to give the illusion of a better jump from the horse. I don't think you can talk about what the riders look like when you're talking about what's pinning in the hunter ring.

    When I say "correct" all I mean is NO ducking (which can make the horse swing its legs to the opposite side) no face in the mane, ass not higher than the head, legs swung back with heels up, not jumping ahead or falling back. I'm talking about basic correctness. Heels down, legs still and solid, back flat, shoulders back, head up and looking ahead, nice crest release, not the floaty hands way above the crest thing. Not the trendy stuff that pins in the hunter (non-eq) ring at whatever moment you choose to look.


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  8. #8
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    Sep. 1, 2006
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    Del Mar, California
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven-up View Post
    They pin in the hunters because they're looking at the horse, not the rider.

    And some hunter trainers (not the eq trainers) teach the duck, sprawl, and stick out the elbows because they think it makes it look like the horse is jumping you right out of the tack. So they do artificial things to the rider to give the illusion of a better jump from the horse. I don't think you can talk about what the riders look like when you're talking about what's pinning in the hunter ring.

    When I say "correct" all I mean is NO ducking (which can make the horse swing its legs to the opposite side) no face in the mane, ass not higher than the head, legs swung back with heels up, not jumping ahead or falling back. I'm talking about basic correctness. Heels down, legs still and solid, back flat, shoulders back, head up and looking ahead, nice crest release, not the floaty hands way above the crest thing. Not the trendy stuff that pins in the hunter (non-eq) ring at whatever moment you choose to look.
    Yes, IA.
    "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris



  9. #9
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    Nov. 28, 2006
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    Transitioning
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    570

    Default

    My younger sister just started attending a college with a great riding program. While she's not riding on the team at this moment she's taking classes and she's really struggling with how they are teaching her position. She did like 2"6 before she left with a great all round trainer and at school they're "making her ride like a prissy hunter" (-her words) lots of T&A and throwing herself at the fences.



  10. #10
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    Jan. 26, 2009
    Location
    East Coast, Canada
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    32

    Default Before and After

    I watched the evolution of a rider I know. This rider had a cute little gelding who was very nice over fences. However, said rider had started riding with a new barn and all that coach's riders had that sort of "hunter sprawl" (which, in my opinion, definately helps other disciplines take us seriously...not....). It was not how I was used to seeing this rider ride, found the rider was definately not as effective as in the past.

    The next summer, same horse/rider combo, more and exagerated sprawling. Very perched, jumping ahead, ducking off to one side (over 3' I should add), etc. I don't know for sure that the coach was teaching it, only that the coach definately wasn't stopping it! Now the horse was not going/jumping as well, refusing, hanging his knees - especially if the distance was just right, etc. Just an overall regression.

    The NEXT summer the rider had left the barn with the sprawly coach and moved on to one of the greats in our area. What a GREAT improvement. She had the rider sitting back, waiting for the horse's jump, and had the rider's weight up and off of the horse's front end, allowing him to use himself! Back to a great jump and lots of good rounds and ribbons for the pair!


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  11. #11
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    Nov. 22, 2005
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    1,603

    Default

    All it takes is one well known rider to do something different and there becomes a style. The bad habit of said BNR has worked for him for years and he wins so everyone feels it is the correct thing to do but then they aren't as good a rider and things fall apart! I name Rodney Jenkins and John French as major duckers but seems to have worked well for them!



  12. #12
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    Mar. 23, 2005
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 2LaZ2race View Post
    My younger sister just started attending a college with a great riding program. While she's not riding on the team at this moment she's taking classes and she's really struggling with how they are teaching her position. She did like 2"6 before she left with a great all round trainer and at school they're "making her ride like a prissy hunter" (-her words) lots of T&A and throwing herself at the fences.
    I had this same problem (though I was coming from eventing). It thought it would be fun and educational to learn another style of riding (believing that we can all learn from each other), but what I learnt was to jump ahead and pose. The first time I got on a difficult horse after riding at college, he launched me sky high - and it was not a maneuver that would have had that result 9 months before. I still struggle with jumping ahead (which was not among my faults before college), many years of eventing lessons later, though I did kick the perching habit pretty effectively.

    FWIW, to me, "correct" is the fundamental position Seven-up describes. It's pretty, but allows you to really be in control and ready for anything.
    Proud member of the EDRF


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  13. #13
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    Dec. 22, 2005
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven-up View Post
    And some hunter trainers (not the eq trainers) teach the duck, sprawl, and stick out the elbows because they think it makes it look like the horse is jumping you right out of the tack.
    Just a question, for those that admit (annonymously or not) to the hunter sprawl, did a trainer actually say to you, "Now poke your elbows out like a chicken and let all muscle control leave your body. There, that's right, just like gelatinized sack of rotten potatoes. Perfect!"

    This is an amusing mental image that makes me giggle, and I'm just wondering if that's how it goes. I have watched what were otherwise nice and still riders develop the left-shoulder duck (I think it's funnier still some don't swap the duck with the leads) by simply moving to a barn where the trainer rode in that fashion. Since someone is always talking about the grotesque and commonplace use of this trick I wondered, is someone out there actually teaching it????
    ExchangeHunterJumper.com
    Now promoting sale horses from North Carolina to the Netherlands. Follow us on Facebook.


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  14. #14
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    Oct. 12, 2007
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    570

    Default

    lol - not quite the sack of potatoes instruction, but I have overheard a trainer who seemed to be encouraging the sprawl to "stretch more, reach more, really give him his head as he leaves the ground, and be SOFT with your body, NO SOFTER!" The rider's already looping-the-reins generous release was told it needed to be at least six braids forward from where it was.



  15. #15
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    Dec. 22, 2005
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ef80 View Post
    lol - not quite the sack of potatoes instruction, but I have overheard a trainer who seemed to be encouraging the sprawl to "stretch more, reach more, really give him his head as he leaves the ground, and be SOFT with your body, NO SOFTER!" The rider's already looping-the-reins generous release was told it needed to be at least six braids forward from where it was.
    So THAT'S how they do it- a clever disguise, aha!
    ExchangeHunterJumper.com
    Now promoting sale horses from North Carolina to the Netherlands. Follow us on Facebook.



  16. #16
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    Aug. 31, 2004
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    VA
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    Default

    The idea isn't to leap at your horse. It's just to relax everything and give when the horse is jumping rather than holding yourself against the jump, if that makes sense. Hard to explain. Usually what I hear in a lesson is "stay off your poor horse's back" and/or "give and release from your belt buckle". Don't even ask me how that makes sense, esepcailly since at the time I was wearing side zip breeches, but you get the point.
    -Grace


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  17. #17
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    Mar. 1, 2007
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    579

    Default

    People see the big jumpers in the Olympics do it and think that is the correct position over fences..... NOT. Your angle should be 45 degrees max in two point over fences. It looks so stupid when little kids do it on ponies jumping two foot. You let the horse come up to you, not you meet the horse.


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  18. #18
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Default

    [quote=FAW;3862983]People see the big jumpers in the Olympics do it and think that is the correct position over fences..... NOT. [quote]

    Where did you see the preying mantis release in the Olympics? All sorts of weird things getting over those fences but...not throwing body ahead of the horse and laying in it over the top with elbows out, puppy dog hands perched atop the crest, shoulder ahead of knee all the way down-and that would be ALL the way to the ground at that height.

    With a (very) few in the Hunters it is individual body build and just the way they ride-it is effective for them, they did learn the proper basics and have the proper foundation so you can't really knock it.

    It takes alot of work to get the strong position one should have to jump-no time for that anymore and too few trainers willing to say NO, not until you get an independent seat and hands with a strong base of support. Very unpopular.
    But the rest? Lazy as* kids imitating what they think is cool, adults that SBJ, poor basics, no foundation, BAAAAAD TRAINERS combined with students who think trainer is their "friend" and do not want to look at what the problem really is.

    I, unfortunately, have heard some wannbe JAWS yelling to lay up the neck and jump ahead over teeny, tiny fences-can't do that higher or they turn into lawn darts.

    But you need alot of work on basics to hold a prper position-independent hand and seat, strong lower leg with weight in heels. Unpopular to hear anyboidy say NO jumping, not ready yet or NO showing when you have not practiced.

    Everybody I work with says "You fell off because you were on the neck", "The horse stopped because he cannot hold your weight on his neck like that" or simply "Stop laying on the neck/jumping ahead/ducking".

    I reserve judgement with tiny 6 year olds on Small Ponies who blow off in a gust of wind because they don't weigh anything. They do whatever to stay on.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  19. #19
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    May. 12, 2006
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    1,165

    Default

    Findeight explained it well. My two cents is that some instructors teach the insecure, ineffective position to ensure that their clients are incapable of riding any horse that might ever hesitate at a jump. A rider that jumps ahead and lays on the neck requires an absolute packer, which costs a whole lot more than a greenie or other less-than-forgiving horse, which means the trainer earns much higher commissions on every horse s/he finds for that client. Teaching insecure jumping position thereby ensures the client is utterly dependent on the trainer to find expensive mounts that won't pitch the rider over their heads if they hesitate. Ignorant clients mean more money for trainers.


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  20. #20
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    Default

    Hey, maybe we need a new name for this seat/style/position (or lack thereof).

    So, how about 4 point for legs, crotch, wrists and chest? Get your elbows on it's neck and it's 5 point. SIX point if you can also lay the side of your head or chin on them.
    And if you get the six point, put training wheels on horsey's front end to balance all that extra weight.

    Then post on here asking "How can I get my horse to lift his front end". And argue and defend your trainer when the obvious is pointed out.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



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