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  1. #1
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    Default HU 105 Green Status Reinstatement? Zone 10

    I am wondering about how this particular rule might be used. Could this rule be applicable say for a horse that did one year of the Pre-Green hunter division (3') and then showed early the following year in two or three First Year Green division (3'6")? Assuming the FYG division shows were all prior to the May 15th rule deadline, what hunter divisions would this horse be eligible for in the third show year? Could it be eligible for doing a second year of the 3' Pre-Greens using rule #105 or is this ONLY applicable for the First and Second Years divisions?
    Horsezee



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsezee View Post
    I am wondering about how this particular rule might be used. Could this rule be applicable say for a horse that did one year of the Pre-Green hunter division (3') and then showed early the following year in two or three First Year Green division (3'6")? Assuming the FYG division shows were all prior to the May 15th rule deadline, what hunter divisions would this horse be eligible for in the third show year? Could it be eligible for doing a second year of the 3' Pre-Greens using rule #105 or is this ONLY applicable for the First and Second Years divisions?
    Is Pre-green a recognized division or is it something some shows just add? I was under the impression it just applied to 1st and 2nd yrs. I guess I'll have to go look.

    From what I understand of the rule (and I could have read wrong) you would be eligible 1 st year still (and I thought it was a one show type thing not three, again could be wrong) but you have to file with USEF to have your green status reinstated. I'm going to find and copy the rule....



  3. #3
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    ok it says that you are eligible for reinstatement if you did not show in more then 3 shows of regulation height (3'6" or higher) and you must submit a letter requesting to have your horses green status reinstated (with a fee).

    It says nothing about pre-green so I don't think it's a recognized divisions so that would have to be directed to the show steward.

    Good luck



  4. #4
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    I suspect the reinstatement only applies to the green divisions which are recognized by USEF. Nothing about pre-greens in my version of the USEF rulebook, nor in the PCHA one (2007 version) that's online. Moving down to the county level the LA county rule book says "PRE-GREEN - A horse that, at the closing date of entries, was not a 1st Year Green, 2nd Year Green, or Regular Hunter under USEF Rules." So, under that, you could be pre-green forever until you showed 3'6" or higher. However, I've seen some associations that have a time limit on pre-greenness, generally two years.

    But this made me think of something else. What about a horse that gets reinstated as first-year green. Does it wipe out their first-year green year completely, making them eligible to do pre-green if otherwise eligible? Or can they only go back as far as first-year green?
    The Evil Chem Prof



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
    I suspect the reinstatement only applies to the green divisions which are recognized by USEF. Nothing about pre-greens in my version of the USEF rulebook, nor in the PCHA one (2007 version) that's online. Moving down to the county level the LA county rule book says "PRE-GREEN - A horse that, at the closing date of entries, was not a 1st Year Green, 2nd Year Green, or Regular Hunter under USEF Rules." So, under that, you could be pre-green forever until you showed 3'6" or higher. However, I've seen some associations that have a time limit on pre-greenness, generally two years.

    But this made me think of something else. What about a horse that gets reinstated as first-year green. Does it wipe out their first-year green year completely, making them eligible to do pre-green if otherwise eligible? Or can they only go back as far as first-year green?
    I think they can only go back as far as a first year green Peggy, I dont think that they become eligible to do a pre-green.



  6. #6
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    I do not know about zone 10, however, most zones I am familiar with determine pre-green status by the number years jumping 3' and/or 3'3". They are not at all dependant on green status. A horse can be ineligible for pre-green and if it does not jump 3'6" it will continue to be first year eligible. I have never heard of a do-over for the pre-greens.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  7. #7
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    No, cannot go back and do Pre Green if it did show at 3'6" in the First Years. Least most places. Because that is for horses in their first year of showing fences 3'.

    It just helps those that started the show year in the First or Second Years and suffered illness, injury, divorce, death of owner or some other catastrophy and had to step out very early in the year after only 3 shows max.

    Horse has still shown over 3' and still not in it's first year of showing.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

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  8. #8
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    Horsezee - Based on the replies that I got to my question, it would seem as if a horse that did an "aborted" first-year green could only go back as far as first-year green, not all the way to pre-green. But I can see a place for interpretation as the zone 10 rule says that they are not a first- or second-year or regular hunter. I'd call USEF and ask. And let me know--now I'm curious too.

    Text of zone 10 rule: A Pre-Green Hunter is a horse that is not a First Year, Second Year or Regular Hunter under USEF rules. A horse may show as a pre-Green Hunter for no more than two years once it has reached five years of age.
    Last edited by Peggy; Feb. 2, 2009 at 03:33 PM. Reason: added text of rule
    The Evil Chem Prof



  9. #9
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    Pre-green eligibility is determined by Zone rules. (All of the Zone specifications are available on the USHJA site.)

    For Zone 10, the pre-green specification is:

    "Pre-Green Hunter:
    A Pre-Green Hunter is a horse that is not a First Year, Second Year or Regular Hunter under USEF rules. A horse may show as a pre-Green Hunter for no more than two years once it has reached five years of age. The Pre-Green section will receive C-rated points. Pre-Green Classics will be awarded points equal to those given in USEF “B” Hunter Classics. Fence Heights 3’. Horses may not cross-enter into 3'6" divisions. Horses not to jog."

    So the horse would have to meet all these requirements regardless of being reinstated under HU105. Since a first year green horse is not eligible for pre-green in Zone 10, the question is whether the HU105 reinstatement puts the horse back at 1st year or erases the 1st year status entirely.

    Here are the Zone 10 specifications for 2009:
    http://www.ushja.org/committees/zone...ifications.pdf

    (oops, I see that while I had my response half done and then got interrupted, and then posted, Peggy already gave the specifications and answer.)
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsezee View Post
    So once a horse competes as a 3'6" First Year Green horse; it would become ineligible to do a 3' Pre-Green division? Does this seem right?
    Well, yeah it's fair. If you reinstate First Year it's only giving back that year's eligibility after an aborted start and very few shows. Pre Green would be going back 2 steps in the horse's development when it already completed the Pre Green step getting to the First Years. Actually 3 steps if you take the "second year" Pre Greeens at 3'3" into consideration.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portia View Post
    Pre-green eligibility is determined by Zone rules. (All of the Zone specifications are available on the USHJA site.)

    For Zone 10, the pre-green specification is:

    "Pre-Green Hunter:
    A Pre-Green Hunter is a horse that is not a First Year, Second Year or Regular Hunter under USEF rules. A horse may show as a pre-Green Hunter for no more than two years once it has reached five years of age. The Pre-Green section will receive C-rated points. Pre-Green Classics will be awarded points equal to those given in USEF “B” Hunter Classics. Fence Heights 3’. Horses may not cross-enter into 3'6" divisions. Horses not to jog."

    So the horse would have to meet all these requirements regardless of being reinstated under HU105. Since a first year green horse is not eligible for pre-green in Zone 10, the question is whether the HU105 reinstatement puts the horse back at 1st year or erases the 1st year status entirely.

    Here are the Zone 10 specifications for 2009:
    http://www.ushja.org/committees/zone...ifications.pdf

    (oops, I see that while I had my response half done and then got interrupted, and then posted, someone else already gave the specifications and answer.)
    YES! This is my question?
    Horsezee



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsezee View Post
    YES! This is my question?
    And now mine as well, out of curiosity.
    The Evil Chem Prof



  13. #13
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    The Zone 10 specification is interesting because, unlike many of the others, it does not limit the pre-greens to horses that have never shown at 3'6" or above in a rated show. The Zone 7 specs, for example, say: "A Pre-Green horse is a horse of any age that has never shown in a recognized USEF Regular Member or Local Member show over fences 3'6" or higher. A horse may show in the Pre-Green Hunter Section of a USEF Zone VII Recognized Competition for no more than two years." Under the Zone 7 specs, if a horse had done three shows at 1st YG and then had its green status reinstated -- or if the horse had done even one jumper class at 3'6" -- you could still see pretty clearly that the horse had jumped 3'6" in a rated show, and so it is no longer eligible for pre-green status.

    Instead, the Zone 10 specifications say: A Pre-Green Hunter is a horse that is not a First Year, Second Year, or Regular Hunter under USEF Rules." Under that formulation, you could take an ex-GP jumper and make it a pre-green hunter. After all, if the horse never showed in the 1st YG, 2nd YG, or Regulars, it's not one of those, is it?

    HU105 says: "A horse's or pony's green status may be reinstated for a future competition year if it was not shown at the regulation height at more than three (3) competitions prior to May 15th and if it was not shown at that height after May 15th in the same year. ..." I would argue that by reinstatement, the USEF has essentially erased those competitions from the horse's history, so the horse would not be a 1st YG horse and could go back to the pre-greens for the rest of the year.

    But to be safe the best thing to do would be to contact the USHJA Zone 10 Committee and see how they interpret their specs.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  14. #14
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    Here's my real life experience with this: I am in Zone 1 which has the same pre-green specs as Zone 10. If you apply and have your First year status rescinded by the USEF, yes you may go back and be a pre-green horse, but only if it will not be your third pre-green year.

    I have had a horse do this because of injury, and a friend's horse had this happen because the professional determined after two shows the horse was not mentally ready for 3'6". In both cases, neither horse had done more than three shows at 3'6" and none of these shows was after May 15th. Both horses continued to show as pre-greens the rest of the year, and both were in their second pre-green year. At that time, the 3'3" pre-greens didn't exist, but if they had, I imagine we would have shown at 3'3" to give the horse more mileage.

    If we had done two pre-green years, then tried the first years and bombed, we would have had to finish as a low hunter (or something else in the 3') and then (if we were still crazy enough to think this was a good idea) come back the following year as a second year.



  15. #15
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    Portia - I think the GP jumper as pre-green hunter would have limited applicability. IIRC, once a horse jumps 3'6", no matter the division, they are then in their first green year and thus no longer eligible pre-green. So yes, those 1.3-m jumpers imported from Europe mostly are not eligible first-year, let alone pre-green.
    The Evil Chem Prof



  16. #16
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    I my experience, if you apply to have a horse's 1st status reinstated and it is granted, you basically lose all the 3'6" issues of the pre-green's. USEF treats it like you never did those classes. Zone 3 specifically states that HU 105 will be used if applying for reinstatement of pre-green status.

    And it sounds like Keeper has already been through this in regards to real life practice and not just how the rules read.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
    Portia - I think the GP jumper as pre-green hunter would have limited applicability. IIRC, once a horse jumps 3'6", no matter the division, they are then in their first green year and thus no longer eligible pre-green. So yes, those 1.3-m jumpers imported from Europe mostly are not eligible first-year, let alone pre-green.
    I understand that's what they mean, but that's not what it says.

    You're right that HU103 says a "Green Hunter is a horse of any age in its first or second year of showing in any classes in which the national specifications require horses to jump 3'6" or higher" etc., but that only applies to a horse's eligibility to show in 1st or 2nd YG classes. Rule HU106.4 defines the qualifications for a pre-green hunter as being "a horse of any age in his first year of showing over 3' fences ...," but that only applies if the Zone Committee has not submitted its own specifications. So under the Zone 10 specification, so long as a horse does not qualify as a 1st YG, 2d YG, or Regular, it can be a pre-green.

    It's just sloppy drafting.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portia View Post
    So under the Zone 10 specification, so long as a horse does not qualify as a 1st YG, 2d YG, or Regular, it can be a pre-green.

    It's just sloppy drafting.
    Well since the Regular's are not a restricted division all horses technically would qualify. So there must not be any pre-greens in zone 10
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
    Here's my real life experience with this: I am in Zone 1 which has the same pre-green specs as Zone 10. If you apply and have your First year status rescinded by the USEF, yes you may go back and be a pre-green horse, but only if it will not be your third pre-green year.

    I have had a horse do this because of injury, and a friend's horse had this happen because the professional determined after two shows the horse was not mentally ready for 3'6". In both cases, neither horse had done more than three shows at 3'6" and none of these shows was after May 15th. Both horses continued to show as pre-greens the rest of the year, and both were in their second pre-green year. At that time, the 3'3" pre-greens didn't exist, but if they had, I imagine we would have shown at 3'3" to give the horse more mileage.
    If we had done two pre-green years, then tried the first years and bombed, we would have had to finish as a low hunter (or something else in the 3') and then (if we were still crazy enough to think this was a good idea) come back the following year as a second year.
    THANK YOU, Keeper! This answers my question!
    Horsezee



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