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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2003
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    Default Update pg 2 MORE Help PLEASE! Lyme, Doxy, Stress, Peeing, Bucking?

    One of my boarders was diagnosed with Lyme disease this summer. We successfully have treated it with Doxy (or so we believe). Horse has been back to work for 2 months now. He didn't miss too much time off while being treated as we caught it early. Anyway, this Spring, prior to being diagnosed, he was always an easy shipper, didn't care if he was solo or with company, would stand on the trailer all day, etc. Easy to live with at the shows (1 day shows), would do all 4 classes well and normally win the hack.

    Fast forward to Fall shows. Horse stresses on crossties being prepped, runny diarreha, fidgety. Fusses on trailer. Gets ansy in flat class, won't settle and relax or drop his head. When rider pisses him off (or so I think) he'd get into bucking on course (and normally rightfully so, if she gets left and lands hard, or she catches him in the mouth, etc. Did this from the beginning of ownership). At home, he's fine. Although the last two weeks or so he's been strong at the canter.

    The show before last I figured out that his owner would bring him in from the field before the show and not give him an opportunity to pee in his stall before working on him. So I figured that was part of the problem. While at the show we put him on the trailer for a few minutes and he peed and was fine for the 3 o/f classes (which followed immediately), actually pinning his best yet. Still was ansy in the flat class. As soon as she got off he peed again. So we were thinking, ok this is a didn't have enough time to pee issue. Then he didn't want to get on the trailer, a total new one for him. So we were thinking maybe it was a trailering solo issue that suddenly started?

    On Friday owner tried to take him out for a hack and he kept bunching up and bucking, particularly to the right. Which is also the side that showed the Lyme more than anything else. We checked his back and nothing seemed out of whack. So we decided we try to show him on Saturday to see if it was just a behavior thing?

    So, show morning comes. He comes in from the field and stops mid way and pees, significantly. Is then put in his stall for 20 minutes and is believed (but not certain) to have peed again. Is then put on crossties to finish prep. A little quieter, but still not the same as in the Spring. This time there are other horses prepping and going with. Go to load him on the trailer, doesn't want to. So I load another pony and he then walks right on. Ok, buddy issue? Then once he's on the trailer, he stretches out again and pees. (Pony copies of course). Still ansy on the trailer, but not trying to tear it apart. Load other pony and hit the road.

    We get to the show and he has some time to chill out. Is walking around the grounds and within 1/2 hour - hour he pees again. (it's only a 20 minute ride to the show). Rider gets on to warm up and he won't canter. Will go about once around the ring, quite strongly, and then grunts and bucks. You can see he's uncomfortable. We of course scratch. He is not high, or nervous at all at the show. Actually standing ringside asleep. Loaded him on the trailer and he is ansy again waiting to leave.

    So I'm thinking it has something to do with the stress of shipping and showing, aggrevating his kidneys? He's done this at 3 shows in the last few weeks, so could this be compounding something?

    I should also mention that this horse can't handle molasses or syrups in his feed or treats. He gets high and hard to handle. His behavior is totally different on straight oats rather than grain. Could this be an IR issue? His diet hasn't changed in a year. When he was on doxy he was also getting a nutrient buffer.

    The vet has been called and will be out first thing this week. Just trying to get some ideas as to what's going on.
    Last edited by sanctuary; Oct. 19, 2008 at 05:08 AM.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 15, 2005
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    Default

    I would at least get the vet to do a urinalysis. Then, it would be off to a big university clinic to see if there is something wrong, unrelated to Lyme disease. Does he have any signs of EPM? A kissing spines problems?



  3. #3
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    Oct. 19, 2005
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    First I would remove all grains and feed hay only. Second I'd have his insulin, glucose and ACTH levels tested. And I might consider that he possibly has ulcers. Has his water intake increased a lot? Could also possibly be an EPSM issue to some degree.

    Diets may not change but bodies do and what was tolerated first, may no longer be tolerated when the horse gets older! What breed is this horse?



  4. #4
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    Default

    This is a 10 yo TB. Sorry, should've mentioned that. My gut is that this IS unrelated to the Lyme.

    We believed he had ulcers when we first got him. After taking him off grain and removing/reducing sugar intakes he started eating hay better, behaving better and all ulcer symptoms seemed to go away, so we "thought" they had resolved themselves. Now I should mention that this family is going through very tough economical times at the moment and needs to do this economically (ha!) and conservatively.

    It's hard to say if his water intake has increased alot because he's been out almost 24/7 with a herd, so it's difficult to say how much he's drinking, although he's always been a big drinker.

    Does anyone have a picture of kissing spines? I've always suspected this horse may have an issue with that, but have never seen it to know for certain. He does have a lump about 3 inches long along his spine right in front of his hips. I've always felt that it bothered him on occasion as it does sometimes get tender along the right side (again, that right side) but has not been showing any signs of soreness when palped lately. (sp?) Frankly, this horse is a trainwreck. He has more wrong with him, but his is a teenage girls dream horse and has actually been wonderfully kind and a great teacher to her.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



  5. #5
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    Apr. 14, 2001
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    Minnesota
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    Default

    Kissing spines are only definitively diagnosed via radiograph and/or nuclear scintigraphy. A bump along the spine is not diagnostic of much of anything.



  6. #6
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    Oct. 19, 2005
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    He does have a lump about 3 inches long along his spine right in front
    That probably a roached back and is often seen in horses that have a weak coupling into the croup.

    Suspect kissing spine if the horse tends to push his back down when being ridden.

    Ulcers usually do not resolve themselves unless you really retire a horse like this on pasture perhaps. He probably is still dealing with them and should be treated for them. Many have had great results with using aloe vera or papaya juice along with diet modifications (grains increase the risk of developing ulcers), but only Gastroguard is supposed to heal them.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 1999
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    I can almost guarantee that this horse has ulcers. Try one week of gastrogard, if he's better, then you know for sure. The stretching out is pain-related, and he pees because he just does in that position. Sit on a toilet and try not to pee!

    The Doxy could have upset his stomach if he was not carefully treated with a probiotic at the same time and for several weeks after. Most vets will recommend that.

    The only other time I have seen this behavior is with a mare who had accumulated sand in her gut. Canter made the sand swish back and forth and it was painful. Feeding Metamucil and mineral oil at every meal for a while cleared that up.

    Good luck!
    \"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.\"--Pogo



  8. #8
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    May. 21, 2008
    Location
    Sonoma County, California
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    Default

    Bladder issues? My gelding had a large stone removed. First symptoms were frequent urination and bucking under saddle.
    The stone was removed. We discovered his bladder had atrophied around it, so he has a small bladder. If I ride him while it's full, he get "humpy" (bucks). I stop and let him void, and he's fine. It took me a while to connect the bucking with a full bladder. Just a thought to add to all your thoughts! Perhaps have his urinary tract checked out?

    Also ulcers come to mind. Put him on Gastrogard for a week and see what happens. Can't hurt (except your wallet!)



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Uh -

    Doxy is known to cause ulcers.

    Every symptom you describe is a horse that is suffering from bad ulcers, including the peeing. Horses sometimes drink a lot of water because it helps soothe the discomfort. More drinking equals more peeing.

    Ask the vet about ulcers - not every malady in the horse is proof of IR or metabolism problems.





    Quote Originally Posted by sanctuary View Post
    One of my boarders was diagnosed with Lyme disease this summer. We successfully have treated it with Doxy (or so we believe). Horse has been back to work for 2 months now. He didn't miss too much time off while being treated as we caught it early. Anyway, this Spring, prior to being diagnosed, he was always an easy shipper, didn't care if he was solo or with company, would stand on the trailer all day, etc. Easy to live with at the shows (1 day shows), would do all 4 classes well and normally win the hack.

    Fast forward to Fall shows. Horse stresses on crossties being prepped, runny diarreha, fidgety. Fusses on trailer. Gets ansy in flat class, won't settle and relax or drop his head. When rider pisses him off (or so I think) he'd get into bucking on course (and normally rightfully so, if she gets left and lands hard, or she catches him in the mouth, etc. Did this from the beginning of ownership). At home, he's fine. Although the last two weeks or so he's been strong at the canter.

    The show before last I figured out that his owner would bring him in from the field before the show and not give him an opportunity to pee in his stall before working on him. So I figured that was part of the problem. While at the show we put him on the trailer for a few minutes and he peed and was fine for the 3 o/f classes (which followed immediately), actually pinning his best yet. Still was ansy in the flat class. As soon as she got off he peed again. So we were thinking, ok this is a didn't have enough time to pee issue. Then he didn't want to get on the trailer, a total new one for him. So we were thinking maybe it was a trailering solo issue that suddenly started?

    On Friday owner tried to take him out for a hack and he kept bunching up and bucking, particularly to the right. Which is also the side that showed the Lyme more than anything else. We checked his back and nothing seemed out of whack. So we decided we try to show him on Saturday to see if it was just a behavior thing?

    So, show morning comes. He comes in from the field and stops mid way and pees, significantly. Is then put in his stall for 20 minutes and is believed (but not certain) to have peed again. Is then put on crossties to finish prep. A little quieter, but still not the same as in the Spring. This time there are other horses prepping and going with. Go to load him on the trailer, doesn't want to. So I load another pony and he then walks right on. Ok, buddy issue? Then once he's on the trailer, he stretches out again and pees. (Pony copies of course). Still ansy on the trailer, but not trying to tear it apart. Load other pony and hit the road.

    We get to the show and he has some time to chill out. Is walking around the grounds and within 1/2 hour - hour he pees again. (it's only a 20 minute ride to the show). Rider gets on to warm up and he won't canter. Will go about once around the ring, quite strongly, and then grunts and bucks. You can see he's uncomfortable. We of course scratch. He is not high, or nervous at all at the show. Actually standing ringside asleep. Loaded him on the trailer and he is ansy again waiting to leave.

    So I'm thinking it has something to do with the stress of shipping and showing, aggrevating his kidneys? He's done this at 3 shows in the last few weeks, so could this be compounding something?

    I should also mention that this horse can't handle molasses or syrups in his feed or treats. He gets high and hard to handle. His behavior is totally different on straight oats rather than grain. Could this be an IR issue? His diet hasn't changed in a year. When he was on doxy he was also getting a nutrient buffer.

    The vet has been called and will be out first thing this week. Just trying to get some ideas as to what's going on.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2007
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    A few years ago I had a PPE done on a horse . Turns out the horse had suffered from Lyme's Disease and been treated 3 times already. Now this was a very NICE horse and very REASONABLY priced,and I really wanted him to pass the PPE. Because Lyme disease is fairly uncommon in my neck of the woods I talked to the PPE vet at length about this disease. Both Vet and horse were on the East Coast.It was my understanding from him that Lyme's Disease is a chronic condition...typically a horse will recover with meds and time off...however stress will induce sympotms again.Stress due to trailering, horse showing, heavy training...and Also that "Bute" will make it worse...because I was in the market for a show horse I passed on the horse.
    I think there is still much unknown about this disease.I imagine the meds would/could cause ulcer problems due to the type and duration of the substance...but that is most likely a side effect to the Lyme's...



  11. #11
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    Aug. 23, 2006
    Location
    Ghent, NY
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    Wow! Just this morning the vet left after examining my 7 yo TB gelding, post Lyme's treatment, with similar symptoms. This guy was suspected to have ulcers when he came off the track two years ago, but an alfalfa diet has had him looking very, very good in that regard for six months. He became resistant to picking up the left lead and then to moving forward at all two months ago, tested high for Lyme's, treated on doxy for a month (but no probiotic support) and is now good on the left lead but still resistant to moving forward under saddle. Tomorrow we will have x-rays done to see about kissing spines or wither problems, also checking the front feet and hocks to see if leg issues could be causing back problems. Although this guy doesn't pee frequently, he constantly drops and looks like he will pee whenever we go to mount up. I disagree with poster above that stated that ulcers don't heal on their own, I understand that it is very possible for that to happen if you hit the right feed, stress level to keep acid levels down. However, doxy can cause a return and maybe rib sensitivity (as mine has now) is part of that along with the "need to pee." I'll post on what is found tomorrow, would like to hear status of your guy, vet suggestions too.



  12. #12
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    This is purely anecdotal, but don't ignore the prospect of the interaction with "post Lyme" and day length.

    I have posted about Music's symptoms MANY times, but only one seems to have survived the lates thread pruning.

    http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/sho...me#post1350382
    Starting with the year she was diagnosed and treated for Lyme (spring 1996), Music developed a pattern of suddenly being unable/unwilling to canter each October. It would get worse through about January, then gradually improve, until by late April- mid May she was "cured". It didn't respond to doxy.
    We tried all sorts of things, but every year (for 4 years) it came back every October.
    Finally, in 2000, observing that the only thing that was consistent was the time of year, we put her under lights to extend the perceived day length.

    The vet said "day length shouldn't have a musculoskeletal effect, but it can't hurt, it isn't expensive/difficult, and there clearly is a correlation of her symptoms with day length."

    Putting her under lights completely fixed it. I was absolutely thrilled when I took her in a second level test in December, and scored over 60% .
    We still don't know WHY.
    We know the immune system is affected by day length.
    We know the reproductive cycle is affected by day length.
    But we don't know which of these (or something else entirely) is involved.
    Eight years later, she is still kept under lights, she still canters willingly all through the winter, and she hasn't had a recurrence of Lyme in MANY years.

    I can put your vet in touch with my vet if you like.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  13. #13
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    Thanks guys. Janet, that is very interesting. Will definitely keep it in mind. The vet is on his way out now. I will keep you posted.

    I also want to add that this is primarily happening while away, which would definitely lead you to believe it might be ulcers. He was on Nutrient Buffer while on the doxy, and for a bit afterwards, but perhaps not enough.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



  14. #14
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    Apr. 6, 2008
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    Lancaster, PA
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    Really interersting Janet - and wonderful that you have a realitively easy solution.

    Sanctuary, I agree with the ulcer therory. My horse has/had Lyme. Treated for 15 weeks of 50 pills BID. I gave probiotics through out. My horse has a multitude of problems... but, when I visted one vet in particular she suggested a Panacur Power Pac to treat the Candida that all those antibotics would have created. After giving him the PPP my horse bloomed. No kidding... it made a big difference.

    He also suffers from mild ulcers and has been scoped twice, treated the full two weeks with Gastro Gaurd twice. I never take him anywhere with out giving him Ulcer Gaurd before traveling and after. The suggestion of Papya Juice earlier is good too. I have also used that.

    Try giving this horse a PPP and treat him for ulcers. Good luck!



  15. #15
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    Foxford, he is due for a worming, so I will definitely mention this to his owner.

    The vet came out and he did some serious chiro on the horse, said his lower back and hips were way out. He's also taken some blood and wants to check for infections. He doesn't think this particular horse's issue is ulcers. We're still trying to collect a urine sample from a very shy boy, so this should be interesting. I suppose if nothing comes back unusual from any of that, then they will explore the ulcer route. It's not my final call, I'm just trying to gather information.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



  16. #16
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    Did you read this description of ulcer symptoms from the latest Ulcer thread?

    "-Picky eating (leaving or picking at grain, hay, not drinking much water)
    -Reluctance to go forward
    -Suddenly refusing jumps (this and the above are because the acids wash up and over the ulcers with forward movement/jumping)
    -Constantly trying to park out and pee (my gelding did this constantly, like every 15 minutes when the ulcers were at their worst -- just trying to relieve pressure and tummy pain as best he could figure)
    -Grinding teeth/cribbing/chewing on whatever is available
    -Increased balking/spookiness under saddle"
    __________________
    \"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.\"--Pogo



  17. #17
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    Ok, maybe I haven't made this entirely clear. This horse is NOT constantly parking out and straining to pee. We sat and watched him in his stall for 3 hours and never saw him pee.

    Even when he is stressed, he's not just parking out and not peeing, he IS peeing. ALOT, like you wouldn't know that he had peed 30 minutes prior. Not to mention he did not have anything to drink in the iterim, so it's not like he'd drank 5 gallons of water and then peed.

    He has not been reluctant to go forward. If anything, he has been strong and hard to ride at the canter. He has not refused a jump. He cleans up all his hay and feed. Even when at the shows, he's grazing and eating normally unless he's asleep. He has not been spooky.

    It's almost like when working harder at the shows it's like the opposite of tying up. Instead of not being able to process the lactic acid, it's coming out full force. Bloodwork is due back today, so hopefully some answers.

    Sorry if this is a bit snarky.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



  18. #18
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    "Rider gets on to warm up and he won't canter. Will go about once around the ring, quite strongly, and then grunts and bucks. You can see he's uncomfortable. We of course scratch. He is not high, or nervous at all at the show."

    Sorry, if a horse won't canter, I assumed he was "reluctant to go forward."

    I'll go ride my horse...
    \"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.\"--Pogo



  19. #19
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    Default UPDATE

    Bloodwork came back normal, although this will only show kidney issues, not bladder. Managed to get a urine sample today, so will send that out for analysis. Best part of the news is that the chiro. adjustment yesterday made a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in him today. He went w/t/c VERY quietly and willing, looking the best he has in a while. Jumped a few jumps and stayed quiet and did quiet swaps. Not a buck or stiffness to be seen! So it looks like a lot of this might be in his back. Our vet is particularly concerned with the roached back area of his back. Mom is planning on buying a Thinline pad for Christmas this year. I'm hoping to talk her into getting one a bit earlier.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



  20. #20
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    Mary, we misunderstand each other. When I said won't canter, I mean he was galloping around the ring and bucking. His rider could get him to go just fine, it was the "canter nicely" part we were missing . Today he would've won the hack.
    Life is hard. After all, it kills you. - K. Hepburn



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