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  1. #1
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    Default Question about Fees for DSHB shows and closing dates

    I found it interesting that Hunter Breeding shows close the Friday before the weekend show! This is of course quite different from the Dressage Sport Horse Breed Show (DSHB) that closes ONE MONTH before the show. There is no need for an actual "ride time," both shows are in-hand, so what is the rationale? I also find it unusual that the DSHB show charges high additional fees for entries after the closing date...like more than twice the entry fee! Why is this necessary and who gets the extra $$.

    OK so here is the discussion:

    1. Why do DSHB shows close one month before the actual show date?

    2. Why is there a high fee, like more than twice the entry fee, for an entry after the one month closing date? I can see a post entry charge, but reasonable would be nice.

    3. Who authorizes the post entry fee? USDF; USEF; or is it the entry clerk?

    4. Who gets the additional monies, the show; USDF; USEF or the entry clerk?

    In the age of computers; with overnight printing available from Kinko, and with everyone concerned about the economy, it would be interesting to hear various thoughts on this topic. This is NOT meant as an attack on anyone it is meant to be informational only.
    http://www.herselffarm.com
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  2. #2
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    A DSHB is an entire show in its own entity in most cases,And when it is part of a larger show, it is run as its own entity.

    A Hunter breeding show is a TINY division of a full fledged rated long running hunter show 99% of the time.

    DSHB horse are shown individually, are generally scheduled/time slotted, and must be individually scored, unlike group classes at Hunter shows.

    Just these few things make them apples and oranges for show management.
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
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  3. #3
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    Thanks MRF, I am aware that hunter breeding shows aren't judged the same as the dressage sport horse breed show :-)

    Your point toward apples and oranges, still doesn't explain why the entries for a DSHB show close a month a head of the show, nor why, who sets, and who benefits from post entry fees.

    I could see a show accepting only "X" number of entries, so that the show would run on a fixed schedule, and not run until midnight, that would make sense. But having a closing date many weeks before the show appears to be for convenience only and not out of necessity.
    http://www.herselffarm.com
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    A DSHB is an entire show in its own entity in most cases,And when it is part of a larger show, it is run as its own entity.

    A Hunter breeding show is a TINY division of a full fledged rated long running hunter show 99% of the time.

    DSHB horse are shown individually, are generally scheduled/time slotted, and must be individually scored, unlike group classes at Hunter shows.

    Just these few things make them apples and oranges for show management.
    I'm not sure what you mean by 'run as it's own entity'? Is there a separate secretary or show management for DHSB classes at a show that offers regular performance classes? If so, why?

    Locally, HB classes are run the day before the regular show starts or the first day of a multi day A show. We usually need to get a special judge as not all Hunter judges are licensed for HB.
    While HB horses are run as a group they certainly ARE individually scored. But not the same way as DHSB. No score sheet.
    No, we don't have individual start times but we still need to estimate class start times for the overall ring schedule.

    Here's what the fees/rules look like:

    4 one day C/B shows are running HB. The classes are run the day before the show. Entry fees are $40, Post Entry is $10 and you can enter right up to class start time. Entries close 48 hours before start of first class.

    1 multi day A show ran HB. Classes ran the first day. Entry fee was $25, post entry fee $5. Entries closed 5 days before the start of the first show day. You could post enter right up to class start time.

    In NJ there is a show series of 12+ shows. With one exception they are all 1 day events. All these shows offer HB classes and accept post entries the day of the show.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by sporthorsefilly View Post
    Thanks MRF, I am aware that hunter breeding shows aren't judged the same as the dressage sport horse breed show :-)

    Your point toward apples and oranges, still doesn't explain why the entries for a DSHB show close a month a head of the show, nor why, who sets, and who benefits from post entry fees.

    I could see a show accepting only "X" number of entries, so that the show would run on a fixed schedule, and not run until midnight, that would make sense. But having a closing date many weeks before the show appears to be for convenience only and not out of necessity.

    Not all DSHB close that early. I am taking my horses to a show August 16th and the closing date is August 13th. That is pretty standard for the shows in my region.

    ETA that we do have "ride times". The program lists the order of go and the time expected in the ring.
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  6. #6
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    With the exception of some of the larger Hunter breeding DIVISIONS Hunter Breeding is generally same day shipped in, post entry accepted, often start at 10 am or Noon and done at 4 or 5 pm... . horses show off the trailer, in many cases. If one or 50 horses come, the DIVISION is held. Sometimes there are several in the same week or two span, as Divisions in Hunter Shows.

    In DSHB In any one multi-state USDF region, there might be 10 shows all year, at 5 venues, mostly two back to back shows, maybe one weekend per month. This requires stabling, and Pre- entering allows the show to cancel if it will not be financially feasible to hold it for low entries. IF they happen to be part of a larger Dressage Show( only occasional), those are also pre-entry to allow for proper running and scheduling.

    You will seldom if ever get a "Show Program" at ANY HB show unless entries closed 30 days before, while they are standard at a DSHB show,...

    Again apples and oranges. .
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
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  7. #7
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    Also, there are so many intact colts and stallions at DSHB shows, that stabling can be a real challenge. Giving a few extra weeks to encourage entries to come in early gives management a chance to try to figure out where to safely stable them.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    In DSHB In any one multi-state USDF region, there might be 10 shows all year, at 5 venues, mostly two back to back shows, maybe one weekend per month. This requires stabling, and Pre- entering allows the show to cancel if it will not be financially feasible to hold it for low entries. IF they happen to be part of a larger Dressage Show( only occasional), those are also pre-entry to allow for proper running and scheduling.
    .
    Why is stabling required? Because the horses are shipping in the day before or leaving the day after the show? If it's a one day show not sure I understand why you need stabling.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
    Why is stabling required? Because the horses are shipping in the day before or leaving the day after the show? If it's a one day show not sure I understand why you need stabling.
    When I am showing a very young horse, I strongly prefer stabling even if it is only a one-day show. I really can't imagine working out of a small trailer with a yearling, for example. I am sure others have different opinions, but I think it is safer and less stressful to the horse to have a stall for them.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    When I am showing a very young horse, I strongly prefer stabling even if it is only a one-day show. I really can't imagine working out of a small trailer with a yearling, for example. I am sure others have different opinions, but I think it is safer and less stressful to the horse to have a stall for them.
    Ok, then it's a 'cultural' difference. One day HB shows do not generally offer stabling. Even at a multi day show that offers an HB division stabling may not be available. Everybody does fine working out of a trailer.
    Perhaps less stressful but not required.

    It seems like the reasons for what seems to me off the wall advance entriy requirements have more to do with stabling than anything else. So if DHSB shows dump the stabling then there isn't any real need for advance entries.

    Are DHSB shows ever canceled for lack of entries?



  11. #11
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    In DSHB you often have breeders showing multiple youngsters, so they need to have a place to put the ones they are not showing.



  12. #12
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    At DSHB shows, a nice foal might be first in the ring in the AM for its foal class, but then be called back later in the day to compete for colt/filly championship, Y/H championships, maybe even the show (grand) championship. That can make for a very long day, so it's best that the horses have a stall where they can rest between ring appearances.

    Also, some DSHB show organizers require mandatory stabling to help defray the expense of holding the show, plus sometimes the property owner requires mandatory stabling for insurance or other reasons.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    In DSHB you often have breeders showing multiple youngsters, so they need to have a place to put the ones they are not showing.
    You don't think that happens in HB classes? Of course it does. The place to put the ones who aren't showing at that time is the van or the trailer.

    Downyonder:
    "At DSHB shows, a nice foal might be first in the ring in the AM for its foal class, but then be called back later in the day to compete for colt/filly championship, Y/H championships, maybe even the show (grand) championship. That can make for a very long day, so it's best that the horses have a stall where they can rest between ring appearances.

    Also, some DSHB show organizers require mandatory stabling to help defray the expense of holding the show, plus sometimes the property owner requires mandatory stabling for insurance or other reasons. "

    HB classes have a Best Young Horse, Best Yearling etc. These classes are also held later in the day. But the show day is probably not as long because they show in groups, not individually.
    I've never seen a HB show that requires mandatory stabling or a facility owner that requires it. None of the local one day shows would dare do that, they'd have no entries and most of the one day shows don't even have stabling. Not a USEF requirement.
    More likely the DSHB show is making money on the stabling and the exhibitors have been 'trained' to think they need stabling so it's not seen as blowing smoke when in fact, that's what it really is.



  14. #14
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    Thanks for all the feedback.

    It appears to be a cultural difference with people wanting/desiring stabling at DSHB shows. I have worked off the trailer at most DSHB shows, and also worked out of the stable. Personally, I find that the horses actually preferred the trailer, or being hand walked/grazed, it is the humans that preferred the "break." Being placed into strange stalls in a strange place, is not what my spoiled horses are used to.

    Personal e-mail from USDF Krystina Firth: The USDF does not set a closing date OR set the price of post enty fees. Therefore, I must assume that it was the entry clerk OR the show management that tacked on the $50 fee for entering after the closing date.

    Hillside, I would like to show in your region

    Magic Rose: quote: "In DSHB In any one multi-state USDF region, there might be 10 shows all year, at 5 venues, mostly two back to back shows, maybe one weekend per month. This requires stabling." end quote.

    I am within 45 minutes of those shows...I ship home in the evening, preferring my horses to have their evening turnout and enjoy their lives as close to their norm as possible. I found that worked much better than leaving them in a strange place overnight.
    http://www.herselffarm.com
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  15. #15
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    This may be a individual show thing, but the Hunter breeding classes I have been to have all been in rings that you can watch the show, while holding your yearling, etc. The DSHB shows have all been in arenas that you can't see ANYTHING if you have a horse you are holding/grazing. That may be another reason so many of us get stalls.

    Also, from what I have seen the Hunter breeding classes are quite small for the foals. In DSHB classes, that may be the largest class of the day. Most people don't want to leave a mare and foal on the trailer all day.

    I really just don't like leaving ANY horse on a trailer all day, and if I am driving 3 to 5 hours to get there, I don't want to do that in the same day either.

    Some shows also have a grounds fee that is almost as much as a stall, so why not make the horse more comfortable?



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    Also, from what I have seen the Hunter breeding classes are quite small for the foals. In DSHB classes, that may be the largest class of the day. Most people don't want to leave a mare and foal on the trailer all day.

    I really just don't like leaving ANY horse on a trailer all day, and if I am driving 3 to 5 hours to get there, I don't want to do that in the same day either.

    Some shows also have a grounds fee that is almost as much as a stall, so why not make the horse more comfortable?
    For HB there are National awards for yearlings, 2 yr olds, 3 yr olds. Some shows do offer foal, get or broodmare classes but it's not the usual thing at a smaller show. May not draw as well because there are no year end prizes.
    And some Hunter people don't think hauling a mare and foal for hours is acceptable. Seems that's OK with DSHB folks. Personally, I wouldn't even think of taking a foal to a HB show.
    I have no problem leaving a horse on a trailer. Probably safer than some of the permanent stabling I've seen at DSHB shows and H/J shows and likely to have better ventilation. Trailers come with great options for fans. Perfectly acceptable and it's the only choice at a one day Hunter/Jumper show. At a H/J show it's likely that the exhibitor won't arrive on the grounds till shortly before their classes start and will leave as soon as they are done for the day.
    I've never seen a grounds fee at a one day H/J show even approach the cost of a stall. Locally, one day shows don't have a grounds fee although there may be a small office fee ($20).
    I think it's really all about what you are conditioned to accept as the norm. Recently there was a thread in the Hunter/Jumper forum about the cost of stalls at a specific show location. The price for the same number of days, same facility had large differences between what was charged to a H/J, Dressage or QH exhibitor. H/J paid the most then Dressage and the QH folks paid about half of what was charged for H/J.



  17. #17
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    I am perfectly comfortable hauling a mare and foal for several hours, but will only show once or twice a year.

    Several of the DSHB shows have a $20 grounds fee, OR a $30/40 day stall fee. I would rather pay a bit more, and make them more comfortable. We show at Lexington, and Morven, and the stalls are really nice. I have not been to Fair Hill, but several have said that is nice too. Devon stalls are older, but have good ventilation, and in 13 years, I have never had a problem showing there.

    Many DSHB people use shows as a way of developing their eye, and knowledge of bloodlines. That is also why the program & announcer with bloodlines is so important. People will not just show in their class and leave. It is then a free clinic, and I and many others want to take the opportunity to educate ourselves as much as possible. We also want to support, and cheer on other successful breeders of those horses that win Championships. We can put our horses in a stall, and watch the rest of the show, check the scores, compare scores & placement order to our notes in the program, etc. We can also go find that breeder to discuss further the cross, and what they see as the characteristics that the horse got from each parent.

    Horses spending many hours standing around at hunter shows gain exactly what they need to show in hunter classes as it is a more relaxed class. DSHB classes require a horse to be more animated, fresher, so we don't want them standing around, dozing in the sun, going to sleep. We want them to come out of their stall, with the same attitude they do at home when first turned out for the day. That way they will be enthusiastic, and show the animation they are capable of.
    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Jun. 19, 2008 at 11:29 AM.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post

    It seems like the reasons for what seems to me off the wall advance entriy requirements have more to do with stabling than anything else. So if DHSB shows dump the stabling then
    I do think requiring entries to be in a month in advance is ridiculous, though, regardless of whether there is a stabling issue or not. Personally, I would be able to show a lot more if they did not have that requirement; I often cannot block time a month or more in advance.



  19. #19
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    Yankee Lawyer, I have to agree that a closing date within two weeks of the show date, might just be more appreciated by most of us! Since catalogs are not sent out for printing and binding, and since computer programs allow for simple corrections/additions, closing dates shouldn't be one month in advance.

    One also has to wonder, if you pay an additional fee for a post entry, which is received one week prior to the show, and the show catalog, is a simple print catalog, why an ADDENDUM sheet could not be printed, copied and included the day of the show???? Several post entries were only identified as a "number."

    With having to overnight the entry ($18) and pay an additional ($50) late fee, wouldn't you think that an addendum sheet of the late entries could be provided?

    I am always intrigued that even with the sophistication and speed of computers, that catalogs are incomplete and printed at a very reduced cost. Surely with the extra payment ($50) a show could afford an addendum sheet.
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  20. #20
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    A big part of the problem is that shows are usually understaffed, I believe, and rely a lot on the generosity of volunteers, so dealing with last minute changes and addenda might be really tough if it falls on the same person who also has to be worrying about final details wrt the show.



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