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  1. #1
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    May. 4, 2003
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    Canada
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    Default I am ashamed of CANADA

    Just watched a horrifying CBC doc called "No country for Horses".
    How loopholes in the law are used to feed a growing industry in Canada. There are seven slaughter houses in Canada: One in Alberta has a good reputation, the one in focus is Natural Valley in Saskaatchewan. The others, no data. In Canada 30,000 MORE horses were slaughtered than last year. 80% of slaughtered horses were imported. With the closing of plants in US it just moved the industry north, and south. Ever growing demand for gourmet horse meat in Europe and Asia.

    Temple Grandin has guidelines like higher sides to the chutes than for cattel, non slip surfaces, calm demeanor, no shouting or hitting.
    None of these were evident at NV where they kill 200/day.
    The horses are difficult to stun because the skittish terrified horses are headshy. Many are not stunned before they are killed. Skulls found in the disposal heap outside showed not stun marks. In their hidden camera investigation there was no water or feed in the pens. The horses are transported for up to 36 hours with no water or feed either. They are shipped in double decker transport trucks in violation of regulations. They are not stopped en route, they are not stopped at the border, they are not inspected at the border by the required vet (or they would not pass horses with tumours shown on camera), they are not inspected at the plant by a vet (if they are he turns a blind eye), the horses are shipped with shoes on, illegally.
    Piles of legs with shoes on were filmed.

    All this in violation of Canadian Food Inspection Agency laws. This is a brief, unedited, draft of the documentary and I am apalled that NOBODY is doing anything about an industry that is growing with laws in place to protect the horses, but being blatantly ignored.

    "When an operator loses his compassion he should not have the job"
    they said.

    www.CBC.ca "No country for horses"



  2. #2
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    Oct. 31, 2007
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    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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    Default

    Yikes, I haven't see the documentary, but my mother did see it and she called me and told me about it and she was horrified.

    We need to stop breeding horses at this astonishing rate, THAT is the root of the problem. Stop breeding mediocre mares, stop breeding to mediocre stallions. If you want a foal, buy one or rescue one. Once we get a grip on our breeding problems (US and Canada) then maybe we can see an end to slaughter.

    Good heavens, 200 A DAY in ONE plant? What more do we need, in terms of proof, for us to realize that we have a problem here



  3. #3
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Default

    According to US anti-slaughter advocates - all y'all are lying.

    Personally, I'm so mad I could spit. All the US did was outsource slaughter and now we have no control over our horses fate. There was no reason to believe that forcing our nations unwanted horses to travel horrific distances into Canadian and Mexican plants was ANY improvement to animal welfare.

    I'm sorry. I really am. It's sickening to me that US livestock have to travel long routes. The shortest distance to a facility should be the only consideration.

    However, I'd also caution you against believing all the anti-slaughter propaganda out there. While I agree that our horses should not have been made your problem, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with it, at least oppose it for the right reasons.

    In the US, anti-slaughter advocates promulgate a video of "pithing" in Mexican slaughterhouses and assert that this is the way horses are killed in Mexico - that it's the norm. It gets people (understandably) horrified and up in arms.

    However, that's not the way horses are being slaughtered in Mexico. It's a half-truth manipulated to make people belief it is The Truth.

    If The Truth is horrible, it shouldn't require manipulation. Unfortunately, that documentary is very... very... manipulated.

    Please don't take that to mean I think you should be dealing with a US problem. What you're dealing with is our nation's mistake - a mistake made by animal rights activists who decided that sacrificing horses was ok as long as it was for "The Cause".

    I think it stinks.

    Good luck with pushing it back over the border - our anti-slaughter activists have more money than yours.



  4. #4
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    Oct. 4, 2005
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    PA
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    Default

    I have a hard time believing the trucks are not stopped at the boarder.

    My husband is a truck driver and he crosses the U.S./Canada boarder all the time. He is stopped both ways and he says you had better have your papers in order. He doesn't pull livestock, but a truck is a truck to the officials. They don't close their eyes because the trailer is owned by a horse killer. Horse killer's don't have that kind of power. They are just drivers pulling a load.

    Come one, people. Horse slaughter up there isn't some big black market thing where powerful horse killers are greasing the palms of officials to get over the boarders. Horse slaughter up there is just regular business to them like processing tomatoes or cattle in the U.S.
    Why would they even need to be sneaky or devious to do something that's regular business to them?

    I'm on both sides of the fence on the horse slaughter issue. I eat meat and respect that other countries eat types of meat that I don't. But I'm also of the mind "Not my horse."
    There is not just one answer to the slaughter debate in the U.S. There are many things that could be done effectively to settle this. However, it takes everyone to become involved for it to work. United we must stand . . . divided we will continue down this path.



  5. #5
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Default

    ---"divided we will continue down this path."---

    Divided we keep filling the coffers of the animal rights groups and so eventually lose ALL right to own and use horses at all.

    Much of what you say they show in that video is against regulations, so go enforce the regulations where they are not followed properly.

    Using that to ban horse slaughter is like banning driving cars because some drive drunk and may cause wrecks, unless you want to keep the controversy alive, of course.



  6. #6
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Default

    It's rare that livestock trucks are stopped at either border when leaving the USA.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  7. #7
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    Apr. 4, 2007
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    Jasper, GA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MES View Post
    I have a hard time believing the trucks are not stopped at the boarder.

    My husband is a truck driver and he crosses the U.S./Canada boarder all the time. He is stopped both ways and he says you had better have your papers in order. He doesn't pull livestock, but a truck is a truck to the officials. They don't close their eyes because the trailer is owned by a horse killer. Horse killer's don't have that kind of power. They are just drivers pulling a load.

    Come one, people. Horse slaughter up there isn't some big black market thing where powerful horse killers are greasing the palms of officials to get over the boarders. Horse slaughter up there is just regular business to them like processing tomatoes or cattle in the U.S.
    Why would they even need to be sneaky or devious to do something that's regular business to them?

    I'm on both sides of the fence on the horse slaughter issue. I eat meat and respect that other countries eat types of meat that I don't. But I'm also of the mind "Not my horse."
    There is not just one answer to the slaughter debate in the U.S. There are many things that could be done effectively to settle this. However, it takes everyone to become involved for it to work. United we must stand . . . divided we will continue down this path.
    Yes, your papers are checked (of course). Papers are what are scrutinized. Then you are waived to the Ag vet or not (about a half mile away). Going into Canada, the gov. vet often don't check. Coming out of Canada, our USDA checks the Ag papers, looks into the trailer and waives you on. They certainly don't check out the condition of the horses. I have shown at the Royal and imprted horses into the USA three times. Most of the checking is done by Border Patrol (they are obnoxious about making sure you have a broker and papers are in order), the vet check is almost a "no check." They certainly don't do more than peer into the trailer, they have never gone in one that I have seen. The big cattle trucks are waived through without any vet inspection (unlike the little horse owners that the vet seems to pick on).

    So, based on my (limited) experiences, they are not looked at carefully at the border. Certainly, issues of food/water/shoes etc. are not of interest. Animals going to slaughter do not need vaccines or coggins, so that is a non issue for the big trucks.
    Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s



  8. #8
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    Apr. 4, 2007
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    It's rare that livestock trucks are stopped at either border when leaving the USA.
    That is my experience (that i just wrote about ) also.
    Luistano Stallion standing for 2013: Wolverine UVF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IZPHDzgX3s



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2007
    Location
    VA
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    943

    Default So it was the long journey that bothered the most?

    Hmm....I would have thought the inhumane treatment and killing of the horses in the slaughterhouse would have struck the worst nerve but different strokes and all that. I'll bet the horses thought that was the worst part of it. Yep, the long journey is a rough one and inhumane but that captive bolt usage, poor usage or lack of one, wellll that took the cake. Ymmv of course.

    I've never been one of those animal rights extremists but I have always believed we are to be good stewards of animals on this earth of both companion, wildlife and food stock. Humane raising, humane treatment and humane death are not options but responsibilites. Large scale factory farming and large scale factory slaughter lend itself to shortcuts, abuses, inhumanity.

    I watched the videos. Those horses were not done right and it is not the fault of the anti-slaughter people. It is the owners and breeders who sent the horses to slaughter, some with visible horrific tumours and wounds, the slaughterhouse workers who have lost their sense of right and compassion and the people who see them simply as product, not as sentient beings capable of pain and fear.

    The way that some people would like us all to believe is that everyone in the documentary is lying, the reporter is lying, the vets are lying, the animal investigators are lyin', its just one big lie-fest with faked footage, cuttin' and a-apastin', taken out of context video. Yep, the only folks tellin' the truth are the slaughter proponents, you know, the ones without a vested interest in keeping slaughter.

    It would be much better to have nice, local abattoirs where the slaughter is small scale, where there is little pressure to run it like a widget line and where animals are humanely and as quietly as possible, rendered into mulch or a french steak (the tumors and wormer residue extra flavoring).

    Yep, I bet these abusives we witnessed just didn't happen here in the good ole USA where we had oversight like vets and government inspectors (oh wait, the Canadian plant had that too.....hmm). Yep all those cattle abusives I've seen on video and on the news well that almost never happens cuz its the USA and we take care of our animals......



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Default

    Well, I can't help you.

    Because you appear to be so personally invested in your "belief" that there is no way to open your eyes to other possibilities or alternative explanations.

    You appear to be one of the ones that want to play the blame game. It's everyone else's fault but you're not willing to look in the mirror and see that you too are complicit.

    How is it a breeders fault that a 15 year old horse ends up at slaughter? We don't have legions of weanlings going straight from a breeder's barn to a slaughterhouse. All kinds of horses end up there - young, old, sound, unsound, purebred, grade, imported, native.

    The only person responsible for that animal's fate is the last person that owned it.

    Just like the group trying to make the public believe pithing is the way EVERY horse is slaughtered in Mexico, they're using the same misinformation in Canada.

    You don't see the normal everyday process. You don't see the uneventful but sad death of any animal. All you see is an abuse or a miss. And yes, it's unacceptable and should never be permitted to continue. And yes, it should be punished.

    But it's not representative of the entire industry. It's manipulated to make you believe it is.

    And since you are unwilling to even consider any other possibility, at all - you're not going to do any good for animal welfare. Considering other perspectives or explanations requires you to think critically and independently.

    If you're blaming breeders for the death of an adult horse they haven't seen for 15 years, you're not thinking.

    And I in no way have a "vested interest" in keeping horse slaughter legal.

    THINK.



  11. #11
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Default

    Again, the animal rights groups go video the few times things don't go right, against regulations, as when the dairy cows were abused in the CA HSUS video in the news.
    From millions of cattle slaugthtered, all they have to show is abuse behind the backs of inspectors and against regulations.

    They don't show the many cattle and hours of the slaughter process when all goes boringly as it is supposed to go. That doesn't make a good enough story to make the news and get donations from.

    Seriously, we need to point out abuse where it happens and get them to punish the ones doing it and correct the situation so it doesn't happen again, not help use that, taken out of context, to make animal rights propaganda news.



  12. #12
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    Mar. 8, 2006
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    Southeast Pennsylvania
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    Default

    These arguments go on for ever. All that is being asked is HUMANE slaughter.

    Years and years ago, before most of you commenting on these boards were born, horses at fox hunting club stables were simply shot. The kennels had their special room with a huge vat and chains. The horse was shot and killed and strung up to bleed out. And fed to the hounds. I know first hand of this. No horse was tortured or frightened in the slaughter houses we have today. And if the hunt club didn't do it, the horses were transported down the road and the same manner of death awaited --gun shot. That's what horses owners here in the populated east coast did with their horses.

    This mass killing that happens today is way beyond what people did years ago with their horses who had reached the end of their lives. At least in the area in which I live. Of course, people didn't have hundreds of horses on wide open plains around here. I am speaking of horses that were used for recreation and sport. These horses met humane deaths.

    On this forum, we are dealing with people from many different geographic areas. And many different views of what horses mean to them. Hence the many different views on how to end their horses lives.

    No matter how you view horses, a humane death should be the goal for ALL of them. After all, the USA is not breeding horses for food consumption. It shouldn't be the same slaughter method as used for cattle bred for human consumption. It should be clear to anyone who knows horses that the assembly line cattle slaughter does not work for horses. We need to find another way for the horses since horse slaughter is not going away.



  13. #13
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Default

    ---"We need to find another way for the horses since horse slaughter is not going away."---

    Right now, we seem to have outsourced horse slaughter for human consumption to our neighbors by closing all the USA plants to that use.
    So it did "go away".

    I doubt that, as someone anti posted, all those that see slaughter as a necessary part of our industry, for those unwanted horses, "has a vested interest in it".

    You may need to define what that means, as I doubt that any one of us is in any way involved in whatever you may want to consider "vested interest".

    That would be like calling every anti-slaughter poster a salaried HSUS employee.



  14. #14
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    Mar. 1, 2005
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    maryland
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    These arguments go on for ever. All that is being asked is HUMANE slaughter.
    It's called: pick up the phone, call the vet in, and have the horse put down on the farm.

    Next time you call your vet for a euthanasia on a horse insist he use a captive bolt gun with no tranq and no head restraint. For fun, chase him up a strange chute and lock him in a metal box while you try to hit him on the first try. See what your vet says to this suggestion. "Humane" horse slaughter.



  15. #15
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    May. 28, 2008
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    Sussex, New Jersey
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    These arguments go on for ever. All that is being asked is HUMANE slaughter.

    Years and years ago, before most of you commenting on these boards were born, horses at fox hunting club stables were simply shot. The kennels had their special room with a huge vat and chains. The horse was shot and killed and strung up to bleed out. And fed to the hounds. I know first hand of this. No horse was tortured or frightened in the slaughter houses we have today. And if the hunt club didn't do it, the horses were transported down the road and the same manner of death awaited --gun shot. That's what horses owners here in the populated east coast did with their horses.

    This mass killing that happens today is way beyond what people did years ago with their horses who had reached the end of their lives. At least in the area in which I live. Of course, people didn't have hundreds of horses on wide open plains around here. I am speaking of horses that were used for recreation and sport. These horses met humane deaths.

    On this forum, we are dealing with people from many different geographic areas. And many different views of what horses mean to them. Hence the many different views on how to end their horses lives.

    No matter how you view horses, a humane death should be the goal for ALL of them. After all, the USA is not breeding horses for food consumption. It shouldn't be the same slaughter method as used for cattle bred for human consumption. It should be clear to anyone who knows horses that the assembly line cattle slaughter does not work for horses. We need to find another way for the horses since horse slaughter is not going away.
    I have to agree here and while not weighing in on the debate, I do want to add that I had a good friend in England lose his horse 2 years ago to colic. He was a member of a hunt, and had her fed to the hounds. While at first I was appalled, he explained to me that it was an honor for a fallen horse to go to the hounds (fallen as in dead), and as he helped me understand the tradition and process, it made a lot of sense to me - and while it's not my personal culture, it certainly was his. Who am I to judge?

    Like said above, the MOST important thing is that the animal - any animal under a human's care (in my opinion) - meet as humane an end as we are able to offer.



  16. #16
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by MayS View Post
    It's called: pick up the phone, call the vet in, and have the horse put down on the farm.

    Next time you call your vet for a euthanasia on a horse insist he use a captive bolt gun with no tranq and no head restraint. For fun, chase him up a strange chute and lock him in a metal box while you try to hit him on the first try. See what your vet says to this suggestion. "Humane" horse slaughter.
    You know, MayS, you never seem to answer anyone - just post and run. For the 100th time, contrary to your repeated assertions, the captive bolt method is still used by veterinarians. You'd actually have to read something other than animal rights materials to learn anything though.

    Pretty pathetic that you think this subject is appropriate comedic material. These people in Canada are having to deal with OUR mess; and it doesn't matter if they're pro or anti-slaughter. It's not a problem of their making and our nation's shortsighted policy has foisted it on them.

    Now, if Canada outlaws horse slaughter - our horses will ALL go to Mexico - and that will include Canadian horses, too.

    No matter how you look at it - there are going to be unwanted animals. There are people on this very BB that have said how onerous their local regulations are on large animal disposal. Rendering companies are not picking up in all areas due to the high cost of fuel.

    Everywhere we turn - methods of divesting ownership are disappearing. We can't sell them, we can't give them away, we can't turn them loose, rescues can't take them, most vets won't euthanize healthy animals, and if they die, there's no place for us to dispose of the body.

    That is the REALITY.

    Not a movie, not a documentary, not a glitzy fundraising letter.

    So laugh it up all you want. I feel sorry for you - that you're more concerned about "The Cause" than actually finding workable solutions.



  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MayS View Post
    It's called: pick up the phone, call the vet in, and have the horse put down on the farm.

    Next time you call your vet for a euthanasia on a horse insist he use a captive bolt gun with no tranq and no head restraint. For fun, chase him up a strange chute and lock him in a metal box while you try to hit him on the first try. See what your vet says to this suggestion. "Humane" horse slaughter.
    BLM feral horses, unhandled horses in sale barns and some ranch horses go thru that same process.

    They are run thru alleys into snakes and chutes of all kinds, many boxes, others regular cattle chutes and bled for Coggins, given shots, branded and any other problems handled right there, standing there for longer time, with very little stress, as I have seen myself.
    One person that watched the slaughter line for two days told me it was the same, but faster, even less stress.

    Only those that believe the animal rights videos, many taken out of context, think that is the way it is all the time, as you describe above.

    Sure, there is the ocassional horse that frets or even a rare miss, but so it is in anything we do with horses, life is not 100%, only the best aproximation we can to 100%.



  18. #18
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by J Swan View Post
    According to US anti-slaughter advocates - all y'all are lying.

    Personally, I'm so mad I could spit. All the US did was outsource slaughter and now we have no control over our horses fate. There was no reason to believe that forcing our nations unwanted horses to travel horrific distances into Canadian and Mexican plants was ANY improvement to animal welfare.

    I'm sorry. I really am. It's sickening to me that US livestock have to travel long routes. The shortest distance to a facility should be the only consideration.

    However, I'd also caution you against believing all the anti-slaughter propaganda out there. While I agree that our horses should not have been made your problem, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with it, at least oppose it for the right reasons.

    In the US, anti-slaughter advocates promulgate a video of "pithing" in Mexican slaughterhouses and assert that this is the way horses are killed in Mexico - that it's the norm. It gets people (understandably) horrified and up in arms.

    However, that's not the way horses are being slaughtered in Mexico. It's a half-truth manipulated to make people belief it is The Truth.

    If The Truth is horrible, it shouldn't require manipulation. Unfortunately, that documentary is very... very... manipulated.

    Please don't take that to mean I think you should be dealing with a US problem. What you're dealing with is our nation's mistake - a mistake made by animal rights activists who decided that sacrificing horses was ok as long as it was for "The Cause".

    I think it stinks.

    Good luck with pushing it back over the border - our anti-slaughter activists have more money than yours.


    Canada has been slaughtering horses for human consumption, long before the US slaughterhouses shut down. Up until a year or so ago, we were getting 20,000 horses a yr imported from Canada to Cavel in IL. At the same time, we were exporting horses to Canada from the Shelby Feedlot in MT.
    Maybe you didn't intend for your post to blame US anti-slaughter proponents and the shutting down of US slaughterhouses, for Canada having horse slaughter, but it kinda sounded like it. Unlike here, they actually eat some of the horsemeat up there.



  19. #19
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    I was unclear in my writing, I did know that Canada had plants and that some do eat horsemeat.

    Since closure of US plants, activity has increased in Canada - including opening (or re-opening) plants. I remember reading one interview of a Canadian plant (manager?) that was really happy for the influx of jobs to the community. The local plant was being reopened in anticipation of the increase.

    Thanks for letting me know my post might have given the wrong impression!



  20. #20
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    Oct. 31, 2002
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    I watched the whole thing and I just don't get it. That guy wasn't even a horse person before he decided that horses shouldn't be slaughtered in the US. No, it's SOOO much better to ship them up here. Ya, okay. And I hope that no one for even a second thinks that the way we kill horses is any worse than the way they were being killed in the US before it was banned. No, I don't like it. But then again I don't LIKE the fact that dogs and cats get put down in shelters either. But I understand it has to be done.

    I also get REALLY offended when people talk about how Canadians eat horses. The most offensive thing that anyone ever said to me (and I am not sure why I found it so offensive) was when I was once saying about how I am not 100% against slaughter and someone on another board said to me "Well, of course you are not! You eat horses, don't you?"

    Excuse me? Then she brings up the fact that she was in a FRENCH RESTAURANT in Quebec and noticed Cheval on the menu. Oh for goodness sakes. That's like saying "Well, Americans eat donkeys don't they? I was in a Mexican resturant down near the border and they had Burro on the menu......"
    My horses past and present....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgMOjxvLMJo



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