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  1. #1
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    Default NEW focus (x-c rules question)? Rules, beginners and coaches (@ post #96).

    Jump judged the water yesterday. Saw a number of pros in BN "school" spooky babies into the water before going thru the flags. Saw a couple of ammys, not having schooled outside the flags first, get penalized when their spooky horses resisted/refused.

    With all due respect to the pros, isn't the water the "obstacle," and thus taking them in the water, around the flags, before going thru the flags the same as showing the horse the obstacle first? Or is this something acceptable at the lower levels in the spirit of developing horses? If so, when does it become unacceptable? Novice level? Isn't this the same, in essence, as, say, taking the Novice-level ditch and rail, circling around and then doing the similar but bigger/scarier Prelim one?

    Apparently, there is a parallel issue concerning jumping fences not on course--for schooling purposes. This seems quite odd to me, too, given the safey issues that could be involved. What's up with this?
    Last edited by pwynnnorman; Jan. 16, 2008 at 11:57 AM. Reason: change title
    Sportponies Unlimited
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  2. #2
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pwynnnorman View Post
    Jump judged the water yesterday. Saw a number of pros in BN "school" spooky babies into the water before going thru the flags. Saw a couple of ammys, not having schooled outside the flags first, get penalized when their spooky horses resisted/refused.

    With all due respect to the pros, isn't the water the "obstacle," and thus taking them in the water, around the flags, before going thru the flags the same as showing the horse the obstacle first? Or is this something acceptable at the lower levels in the spirit of developing horses? If so, when does it become unacceptable? Novice level? Isn't this the same, in essence, as, say, taking the Novice-level ditch and rail, circling around and then doing the similar but bigger/scarier Prelim one?

    Apparently, there is a parallel issue concerning jumping fences not on course--for schooling purposes. This seems quite odd to me, too, given the safey issues that could be involved. What's up with this?
    I've seen it done a good bit with water. It does take time to school, so the rider can incur penalties. Apparently someone disapproved of the practice enough to propose a rule change for 2008:

    http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/562-07.pdf

    It looks like it was withdrawn, but there is a contradiction in the document because it also says that the issue was referred to the eventing technical committee for review for 2009.

    If you have an opinion on the matter you can submit comments to the USEF.
    It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up.


    http://chronicleofmyhorse.ning.com/profile/fallbrook



  3. #3
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    Default

    there is ongoing discussion about this in the USEA. I think there was a whole thread on it a while back. I think that to some degree, with the water thing, you are penalized by the time it takes to make that circle to get your horses feet wet, so if you choose to do that, well that's what it is. However, I know that some TDs have elected to penalize it (from the former thread that I can't seem to find). In the past, there was a rule that you could not jump fences above your level, nor could you jump anything unflagged, but that rule is no longer there. If anyone can point you to the prior thread, there was a lot of discussion about whether this constituted "schooling" etc.
    OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!



  4. #4
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    Default

    One more thing - The "obstacle" is between the flags.
    It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up.


    http://chronicleofmyhorse.ning.com/profile/fallbrook



  5. #5
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    Dec. 11, 2004
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    Default

    Interesting. I didn't see the previous thread, either. I'm with pynn on this one- I'm curious as to how this would be different than some other obstacle on course, such as a fence with height. Doesn't the same rule concerning refusals and "presentation to the obstacle/fence" apply?" I've JJ for years, and nowadays is told at every briefing "even if it's a gazillion strides out, if the horse has clearly presented to the fence and starts refusing/stopping, etc, then it is counted as a refusal b/c that was due to presentation to the fence". I would love to see video of riders doing this--Most of the places I've judged have flagged the water complex so wide for the pass through at BN that I don't think it would be possible to do this without going through the flags.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmgirl View Post
    Interesting. I didn't see the previous thread, either. I'm with pynn on this one- I'm curious as to how this would be different than some other obstacle on course, such as a fence with height. Doesn't the same rule concerning refusals and "presentation to the obstacle/fence" apply?" I've JJ for years, and nowadays is told at every briefing "even if it's a gazillion strides out, if the horse has clearly presented to the fence and starts refusing/stopping, etc, then it is counted as a refusal b/c that was due to presentation to the fence". I would love to see video of riders doing this--Most of the places I've judged have flagged the water complex so wide for the pass through at BN that I don't think it would be possible to do this without going through the flags.
    At a SC event last year a fairly well known trainer approached the water obstacle very wide and yelled "I am NOT presenting to this fence yet". His line was obviously not direct to the fence but had probably had an issue w/ a JJ in the past.
    Last edited by Fallbrook; Jan. 14, 2008 at 10:01 AM.
    It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up.


    http://chronicleofmyhorse.ning.com/profile/fallbrook



  7. #7
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    Default

    I've seen this done with various obstacles where a rider will go on the other side and then approach the jump. Yep, they generally get a lot of time penalties. They are not approaching the obstacle therefore no refusal
    Suggestion:
    they may circle past the flags after a refusal but if they go past the flags on the first go, then that's considered a refusal.



  8. #8
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    Jun. 20, 2005
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    Default

    At Champagne Run this past summer many Training level riders were having stops at a house that was right before the first water. There was a couple of feet of dry land afterwards, and you actually could jump it at a slight angle and not have to go through water at all. Most of the problems seemed like the occured because the riders were coming at funny angles and the horse didn't see the water until the last minute. One rider game galloping up through another gap in the fence, cantered through the water, looped around and jumped the house very well. I thought it was pretty smart. I know some places that won't let you do that though.

    At Middle TN, the third BN and Novice jumps were benches next to each other. My trainer said that if you had two refusals at the Novice to loop around over the smaller BN and back to the Novice. He told us that the officials might not be too happy with it, you would rack up tons of time, but that it was legal.
    T3DE Pact



  9. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallbrook View Post
    I've seen it done a good bit with water. It does take time to school, so the rider can incur penalties. Apparently someone disapproved of the practice enough to propose a rule change for 2008:

    http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/562-07.pdf

    It looks like it was withdrawn, but there is a contradiction in the document because it also says that the issue was referred to the eventing technical committee for review for 2009.

    If you have an opinion on the matter you can submit comments to the USEF.
    IIRC it was proposed by Brian O'connor.

    He missed the deadline for "standard" individual rule change proposals (which was back in May/June), so he submitted it as an "emergency" proposal.

    They (not quite sure which "they") decided that it was an idea that needed to be investigated, but it really didn't meet the criteria for an "emergency" rule change.

    So it was withdrawn as a 2008 individual emergency rule change proposal.

    But some variant will almost certainly be presented as a "standard" rule change proposal for 2009, either as an individual proposal, or by the Eventing Committee.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  10. #10
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    Oct. 14, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallbrook View Post
    One more thing - The "obstacle" is between the flags.
    Ah, but I was eliminated for that very situation once. Okay, not exactly, but my coach told us that since the exit to the water was flagged it would not be a refusal if the horse danced at the entrance. I went and talked to the TD afterwards and apparently it doesn't matter where the flags are, the whole water is the obstacle in a non combination pass-through water (I guess its different if it's an A-B combo).

    However, if the rider put the horse into the water to the side of the flags, perhaps that would not constitute presentation to the jump.



  11. #11
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    Default

    At Hill 'n Hound last year, the TD decided that schooling the obstacle by splashing through the unflagged portion before presenting to the flagged portion of the obstacle would be considered a refusal. There were numerous PA announcements to that effect to let competitors know.

    As stated above, this sort of schooling while on course is usually penalized by acquiring time penalties, but I think it's a good option to have for youngsters at the low levels. I hope the USEA clarifies it one way or the other and doesn't leave it up to the whims of individual TDs.
    Hindsight bad, foresight good.



  12. #12
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    Sep. 16, 2002
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    Default schooling water = dangerous riding?

    At Hill and Hound this past fall, it was announced just before the start of XC that “schooling” the water prior to passing through the flags would incur a dangerous riding penalty. I believe there was a thread about that and some discussion as to whether or not it constituted “dangerous” riding.



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post

    but I think it's a good option to have for youngsters at the low levels.
    I don't think a competition is the time to school water.



  14. #14
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    Nov. 17, 2004
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eqsiu View Post
    I don't think a competition is the time to school water.
    Say you don't have regular access to a xc course though, or they have only seen one water jump? When else are they going to get to if not in competition? I'm not saying it is the time to do a schooling session, but for a lot of us we compete at a certain level to give the horse exposure to just this kind of thing.



  15. #15
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    Wynn and I are in TOTAL agreement.

    During the Florida winter season we see all the young horses that the pros are eventing for the first time, at BN or Novice. They usually are in the BNH or NH division, and almost ALL of them splash through the water jump before presenting. Sure, it uses up time, but at BN, time is usually not an issue.

    Then, some poor BN or N rider who DOESN'T know that this is allowed tries to do the water correctly the first time, and either gets a refusal or is eliminated all together.

    It irritates me to no end - I consider it CHEATING. I also see experienced riders do this with ditches.



  16. #16
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    I had a really quirky horse who would panic at drops into water he had never seen IF he was not allowed to walk in first. Quirky. It is not possible to school every single water fence, but I did as many as I could get to and actually competed him at lower levels just to be able to give him good water experiences on those courses so next time I could do the higher level and have him be OK.

    I took advantage of this loophole twice in his eventing career (of 5 years - N-Prelim) because I felt that giving him a good experience and getting time penalties was the more horsmanshiply (is that a word?) approach than scaring him into a lathered panic attack and getting eliminated (I did that twice, too, before I figured him out)

    And also, while you're not supposed to "school" at an event, you are supposed to compete. If I can find an edge for myself, why would I not take it? Risk getting a few time faults, and ultimlately having a safer, better trained horse, or risk certain elimination?

    I think the upper level competitors know all the rules and use them to their advantage - this is just one more.

    If you are complaining because someone who did this placed better than you did, that is sour grapes.



  17. #17
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    Wynn is not complaining about placings - she was the FENCE JUDGE at the water.

    I'm not complaining about the placings - I was the control/announcer at the water.



  18. #18
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    I don't like it, I consider it against the spirit of the sport. Go to schooling days, unsanctioned fun days or what have you if you need to school. When at a competition, compete. Don't try to find loopholes in the rules that clearly weren't meant to be circumnavigated, just to give yourself some kind of edge.



  19. #19
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    Dang it, I always examine my position carefully when I am in disagreement with Flight Check and Pwynn. But I've thought about it, and here I am, still in disagreement.

    Professionals do this because they are professionals and have been around this block before and they choose not to ask green horses questions that surprise or scare them and cost them 20 penalties if they don't have to. That's one of the reasons why some pay them to ride their young horses around their first courses.

    I start a fair number of greenies. I haven't had to use this tactic yet, but I would if it was best for the horse. It is far from cheating and I admire people, pros or not, with the presence of mind to ride so thoughtfully for their horses . It is setting the horse up for success. I personally care much less about the color of a piece of satin awarded at the end than that my horse is more confident when he ended than when he started. If giving him the best chance to be successful at an obstacle means that he also goes clean and places high, well, that's a nice bonus.

    If they change the rules, that's fine too.



  20. #20
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    Camstock, we're SORT of in agreement in a weird way.

    The Pros usually don't care about the ribbon. Heck, I don't usually care either, and I am FAR from a pro.

    But at BN they are often riding "against" the BN who has one horse, and that horse is the love of their life and may never go above BN. This may be their only recognized show the whole year. That ribbon IS important to them and to their SO/parent/etc.

    They don't KNOW that they can "school" before presenting to the obstacle. So they have an average dressage ride, and a clear SJ, and maybe just the one stop XC. And they go home with no ribbon because 5 pros who "schooled" and 3 others with clear rounds took the top 8 placings.

    I know there is a BNR and NR division. Here in Florida those are usually comprised of riders with "retired" upper level horses.

    So maybe my 2 cents is that the pro should be in the Open division if they really don't care about the ribbon (which is now not making sense because I am totally against the Adult Amateur divisions so I am shutting up now).



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